The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Ursus]

That's all great Whooter, you sound like someone who believes they are insightful, you sound alot like the program staff. As far as you empathizing with my suffering, I don't need your empathy. I barely even touched on all that was wrong about the program. The physical abuse was nothing compared to the mental, and there is nobody, NOT ONE PERSON, who went to that program and was not abused. They did not adhere to International guidelines on child care by a long shot. I can't speak for other programs as I was only in Brighway and Paradise Cove, but I can certainly say that the organization that ran my program (WWASPS) runs alot of these other ones; and there M.O. is lie, cheat, steal, and abuse. So while there may be embellishments, and I am not for that, they are embellishments on abuse. Not made up abuse, embellished abuse. I don't know what you are, but my insight is that you don't know jack shit about programs or survivors, because you have never been in a program and had to survive it.

Most of what I see in your writing is somebody who believes they are an authority. More power to you. Maybe you should start believing you are superman and take a flying leap into that steaming pile you're shoveling. Seriously, you sound exactly like someone who thinks they know something. I guess one benefit of these programs is learning how to identify bullshit.

Well. Now THAT was a refreshing read!  

[Nick08f1]

My older brother spent his last 6 months before turning 18 in Tranquility Bay, and how dare you, Whooter, diminish his horrible experiences by your ignorant ramblings. He is not the same person in any shape or form. He's 26 years old now, and he's an alpha-male who's afraid of the dark now. You think my brother doesn't want to point out the people that abused him and make them liable for their actions? Damn right he does, but the ones doing the abuse in Jamaica weren't walking around wearing name tags so he can point them out. I'm not going to go into the abuse that he told me about because you'll just say he's a liar, but I worked with someone else who went there (the son of the bastard mom who bought into the bull shit and recommended TB to my parents) and his mentality is just as messed up from abuse that he told me about also. They must have some great brainstorming sessions in these "schools" (which you aren't allowed to talk in) to all have corroborating stories. The fact that the Kays and others profit off of the destruction of America's youth is mind-blowing, and any congressman who wants to help legislate against it is perceived as having a personal vendetta against the GOP.

On another note, I'm going to start another thread because I think my brother would do well if he was able to talk with others that had similar experiences and I had only came across this forum today. My brother is not very computer literate so he doesn't realize that there are mediums like this out there.

Whooter. Get a life.

[Nick08f1]

so I think it is important to chose the words wisely...



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Why would YOU call them survivors? You are conceding abuse went on by your very own choice of words. If it was more like a wholesome treatment program like you said... you would be called alumni and graduates and so forth.

[Whooter]

Nick08f1 and Gonzo therapy, my hands are tied here.  The title of the thread is “Why do survivors need to  lie?”.  If we go off of this topic then we will all receive a warning.  So based on this I extracted the portions of Gonzotherapys post which referred to lying and embellishing and focused on those.  I went off topic saying I was sorry for what you went through and got slapped down for that (I should have kept to the lying portion only).  I extended courtesy to your off topic posts both you and Nick08f1 and respond the best I can in keeping within the topic.

My older brother spent his last 6 months before turning 18 in Tranquility Bay, and how dare you, Whooter, diminish his horrible experiences by your ignorant ramblings.

Nick08f1 you obviously have not read through his thread or you would have held your rage for someone else.  We have been discussing various subjects including why people say they were kidnapped when in fact they were transported to a program via escort service and why survivors need to embellish stories of their time spent in programs.  Nick08f1 I suggest you take your own advice and start another thread instead of trying to derail this one with your rage.  I have had no knowledge of your brother or the details of his time in TB up until this point so I dont know how I could possibly diminish his experience.

Why would YOU call them survivors? You are conceding abuse went on by your very own choice of words. If it was more like a wholesome treatment program like you said... you would be called alumni and graduates and so forth.

You have a point, they should be called alumni and graduates.  I have been posting here so long that I have fallen in with the terminology a bit.  But I have seen bumper stickers which say “I have survived ___________” ,  so the title is fairly benign and not very misleading in my opinion.  Programs are unique enough to form a subset of people who can say they survived a shared experience.




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[Gonzotherapy]

First of all, my problem with survivors lying is the fact that it leads to the possibility that the abusers could get away with it. In my experience the only lies I have seen were not complete fabrications, they were stretches of the truth. Whooter, you have some jacked up mentality in trying to make it look like these programs were and are reputable businesses. What is the truth? What are you? I'm going with one of two options, you are either currently an employee or profiteer involved in the programs, or you are a parent who lost a child because of the program and you are trying to justify this in your sick little head. Reminds me of Corey Murphy's mom after he blew his brains out. Still trying to justify the hell SHE put HIM through by sending him to WWASPS programs. Either way you are a complete douche.

You got slapped down not because you went of topic, but because your a complete douche. You try to twist my words around and highlight the part where I talk about seeing a lie. Here's a little info for you if you want to quote something, if I saw 1 lie I saw 1,000 truths. Yaa, the lying bothers me because it takes away from the truth. But like I said 99.99% of the stories I have seen about my program are true. And where the hell do you get these "escort services" take kids to McDonalds. In my experience you are kidanpped, handcuffed or hogtied, if you fight you get diapers and thorazene. McD's? No, your lucky to get a drink of water, and even luckier if the drive is short enough that you don't shit your pants.

If you want to look at lies heres a couple, Brightway was not a licensed facility, neither was Paradise Cove. Browning Academy was not an accredited school. Program lies. And it just keeps going and going, I could write 10 pages on the lies they tell parents. The amount of lies they tell is mind boggling. The greatest one I saw was the ad video for paradise cove, HAH, talk about your great works of fiction.

As far as you go Whooter, why are you even here? It's obvious that you either don't know jack about programs, or you are the biggest liar of all, because if you do have any knowledge about these programs you would know that they are HUGE lying, thieving, cheating, soulless worthless scum of the earth. Therefore, either by choice, or by ignorance, you are the supporter of some of the most worthless "people" (and I hesitate to even classify them as that) on the face of the earth. Bravo, Captain Douchebag. :tup:

[Whooter]

Look there is no need to attack me because of my opinion.  I am of the belief that some programs are abusive and others are not.  Many kids are helped by programs and some are hurt by them.  I am not an extremist like yourself.  Unlike you I am able to see both sides of the issue.  Yes programs lie and so do survivors.  This topic is about survivors lying.  There have been discussions about programs lying and pro-program parents lying.  I accept those threads and they are worth discussing like this one is.

I highlighted the part about the lying in your thread because that is the topic here.  You seem to be very ignorant about the industry in general and post here on pure emotion versus intelligence, you can only see the industry through your own singular experience which is too bad because there are many kids who benefit greatly from their time spent in a program.  Your input here would be greatly appreciated if you could stop and accept that there are many other people around you who have voices also.

I hope you consider opening up your mind a little to opposing opinions without feeling threatened and in need of reducing yourself to attacks and name calling.



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[Whooter]

First of all, my problem with survivors lying is the fact that it leads to the possibility that the abusers could get away with it.

This is a good point.  If the abusers can point out that the survivors are lying about being kidnapped then how can they expect people to believe they were abused in a program?  If they embellish one aspect of their story then how can the reader distinguish between the truth and lies in the rest of the story.

The abusers can exploit this fact and discredit the story.

Whereas if the survivor told the truth from the beginning then it would be difficult to shake the persons credibility.

Do you see what I mean?



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[Gonzotherapy]

I see exactly what you mean. You are the one that brought me into this thread in the first place. I don't like the fact that some people lie about the abuse. You opened this whole discussion and I haven't seen you reference one thing, one lie as you call it. I really just don't understand what you are attempting to accomplish. I mean, you accuse people of lying, but you haven't stated one instance in which there was a lie. So I'm curious, I shared my experience of a lie, what is yours? Do you actually have one? Or is this some kind of attempt at discrediting an entire group of people to save yourself from abuse charges?

[Gonzotherapy]

And I'm curious Whooter, where do you get off accusing anyone else of being a liar when you have admitted to being a liar yourself? The one instance I have seen in my limited readings of your posts is the fabricated son. So why don't you start a thread called "Why does Whooter need to lie?"

[psy]

All people lie if they feel the ends justify the means.  Problem is in the long run it's never really worth it as people tend to get caught and it damages credibility.

[RobertBruce]

That is a terrible story, GonzoTherapy, I am sorry you had to go thru that.  As to the lying aspect of your post, the stories do get people’s attention and maybe gains them a few minutes of gratification that people may feel sorry for them momentarily.  But I sense it goes beyond that.

There are so many reasons that people lie.  Some people inflate their grades on their resume because they are projecting themselves into a better job and feel justified doing so because they are worth more than the company is paying them.

Some kids become accustomed to lying in their teen years (and earlier) to get themselves out of trouble and when they learn that it works then they continue this habit, many throughout their lives to avoid accountability for their actions, blaming fellow employees for their screw-ups etc.

My sense is that the program wasn’t as bad as what they felt they went through.  They don’t have a story of abuse or a specific smoking gun that will communicate to the reader that the program was torturous.  So they fabricate a story about being kidnapped and taken to this dark place.  Everyone knows that kidnapping rarely ends well and is a good story line and is also an instant attention getter.

Maybe some survivors try to one-up each other and say I was abused more than you?

But my question still remains “Why would a person jeopardize their credibility by lying if the person was really abused?”  Maybe they have nothing to lose because they were never abused to begin with.  But this does a huge disservice to those few survivors who were truly abused during their stay in a program.

I am not sure there is a single answer.



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Whooter you have yet to provide your own smoking gun of a survivor actually lying about something.

[psy]

Whooter you have yet to provide your own smoking gun of a survivor actually lying about something.

Very good point.  Like I put in one of my first posts on this thread.  Whooter's question is loaded.  The real question is "do survivors lie", and if they do, where's a good example.

[none-ya]

I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

[Whooter]

And I'm curious Whooter, where do you get off accusing anyone else of being a liar when you have admitted to being a liar yourself? The one instance I have seen in my limited readings of your posts is the fabricated son. So why don't you start a thread called "Why does Whooter need to lie?"

There have been several threads dedicated to pro-program people lying,  parents lying, Whooters lies.  When it was brought up about the fabricated son we reviewed the post and I explained why I wrote what I did.  I stand behind what I wrote.  On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Very good point. Like I put in one of my first posts on this thread. Whooter's question is loaded. The real question is "do survivors lie", and if they do, where's a good example.

I have provided several examples of people claiming they were kidnapped and as a result ended up in a program.  There are no recorded amber alerts, police reports or documented articles to support any child was ever kidnapped by a program or ended up in a program as a result of a kidnapping.  So why would a person lie about this?  The people taking them to the program would explain that they are paid escorts or as a minimum they could find out by asking their parents what happened.  Why lie about it and risk getting caught and damaging their credibility?



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[Anne Bonney]

I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what kids went thru in Seed to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

Edited to replace Straight with the Seed.  And Straight was considered by many to be even more abusive than the Seed.