Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Troubled Teen Industry
Parents should be held accountable!
Antigen:
Ok, first I have to tell you that I've been peeking at IP addresses again. The best I can do is make an educated guess, of course. But I'm usually pretty close to the mark. Not all of the people who have been saying awful things about you in these forums are on the dishing end of any lawsuit.
Some possibly are and I think they've taken offense and been frightened by your position that they all belong in prison or something. I don't think they do. And I don't think you'll get very far storming the whole of TOUGHLOVEdome with threats and accusations. It may surprise you to find out that some of these people's mos solid supporters and defenders are the kids who they put into these programs and are now defending.
"Now, had a parent placed their child in a program and it was based on the referal of a psychiatrist, psychologist or judge, then I don't think the parent should be held accountable. But I do think the professional who did the refering should be."
Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
It's not that there's any lack of laws governing these places. They do things every day that are illegal. It's just like lynching in the Old South; there's a lack of will to investigate and prosecute. After all, these are all dangerous, hostile, caniving and manipulative teenagers, right? The officials, for the most part, take the position that they get what they deserve and/or they're lying about it.
Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission
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Carey:
--- Quote ---Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
--- End quote ---
Who is "TC"?
I was addressing this question:
--- Quote ---Carey, what do you think about parents who blindly trust their pediatricians and allow their babies to receive dangerous vaccinations that leave them hopelessly autistic?
--- End quote ---
As far as the immunizations thing goes, I don't see the camparison. I think the two situations can not be compared. Yes, doctors can be wrong. Yes, modern medicine and new studies can change the over all view of past opinions. But let us remember that the over all industry is regulated. I do not think the parent who trusted the pediatrician who recommneded the immunization should be held accountable. She was trusting in an individual who had studied medicine. Someone who spent years training. She was trusting a vaccine that had been tested and approved by the FDA. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting uneducated people. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting an unregulated, unproven theory of "behavior modification." The two are not camparable.
Now, had a parent placed their child in a program and it was based on the referal of a psychiatrist, psychologist or judge, then I don't think the parent should be held accountable. But I do think the professional who did the refering should be.
Your response to the above was:
--- Quote --- Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
It's not that there's any lack of laws governing these places. They do things every day that are illegal. It's just like lynching in the Old South; there's a lack of will to investigate and prosecute. After all, these are all dangerous, hostile, caniving and manipulative teenagers, right? The officials, for the most part, take the position that they get what they deserve and/or they're lying about it.
--- End quote ---
I say, then hold the officials accountable, too.
I would like to know the number of parents who placed their kids in one of the "programs" sought professional guidance. I mean professional, not the Sue Scheff kind of professional, I mean a psychologist, psychiatrist or judge, a real professional not some self appointed guru. I would like to know how many of these who sought a professional in which the professional recommended a WWASP program.
--- Quote ---Ok, first I have to tell you that I've been peeking at IP addresses again. The best I can do is make an educated guess, of course. But I'm usually pretty close to the mark. Not all of the people who have been saying awful things about you in these forums are on the dishing end of any lawsuit.
--- End quote ---
I don't know how you can tell that from an IP address, unless of course you know all of those who are particpants in the law suit and their specific IP address. I don't doubt that some are kids or that some are WWASP supporters, but I do believe the majority are the trekers. I can't prove it, but I don't need to. I am not trying to take them to court. I just know from past experience and private emails that their behavior is consistant.
Antigen:
--- Quote ---On 2003-10-13 16:32:00, Carey wrote:
"
--- Quote ---Carey, that's how it usually happens. Not only is TC an accepted treatment throughout officialdome, there's actually been proposed legislation (don't know if it passed) to make TC the only federally funded type of treatment for teen drug use.
--- End quote ---
Who is "TC"?
--- End quote ---
Therapeutic Community. It's the basic method deveopled by Synanon Church sometime before they took to sending their biker thug crews out to beat critics and place poisonous snakes in the mailboxes of lawyers who represented them. It's the same basic method used in WWASP programs, which derive from CEDU which was founded by a Synanon person. Same as Seed, Straight, Kids, AARC and that whole line, which derive from Daytop, we think. Accross the board, wherever the Synanon method is used, we hear from graduates and splitees about all kinds of bad outcomes. But there are no serious, peer reviewed studies to show one way or another. It's an article of faith among industry insiders and regulators that these methods "work".
Well, they do "work". They generate zealot supporters, glowing testimonials and lots and lots of cash.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---
It's not that there's any lack of laws governing these places. They do things every day that are illegal. It's just like lynching in the Old South; there's a lack of will to investigate and prosecute. After all, these are all dangerous, hostile, caniving and manipulative teenagers, right? The officials, for the most part, take the position that they get what they deserve and/or they're lying about it.
--- End quote ---
I say, then hold the officials accountable, too.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I heartily agree! I know, for example, that a couple of people have successfully shut down WWASP, Straight and Kids programs by threatening or actually suing the state regulators. As you note, though, this still doesn't eliminate demand. But it helps.
--- Quote ---
I would like to know the number of parents who placed their kids in one of the "programs" sought professional guidance. I mean professional, not the Sue Scheff kind of professional, I mean a psychologist, psychiatrist or judge, a real professional not some self appointed guru. I would like to know how many of these who sought a professional in which the professional recommended a WWASP program.
--- End quote ---
You mean like the ones at Brightway Adolescent Hospital in St. George, Utah? Or check out the Nightline video that I keep archived in the videos section of my site. http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/
Believe me, Carey, appeal to authority is one of their best tricks. You go into the office of SAFE and you'll probably still find various endorsements on the wall from the governor (Jeb Bush, who, with his wife and state drug czar, Jim McDonough, retain seats on the board of advisors of Drug Free America Foundation).
Want to know how bad it gets? Two years ago, a bunch of program survivors decided to go and picket SAFE on the night of one of their gala fundraising events. First, it was a very sad event that profoundly effected the adult survivors in attendence. You couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy who donated his classic car for raffle to keep his kid in the program and keep the doors open after the former director absconded with a bunch of money. But what happened next was too much for most of us.
When the kids were filing out of the back of the building to go to their host homes at night, one of them decided to make a break for it and try for the picket line. Just as we all remember the scene, the other kids chased him down, tackled him and stuffed him, kicking and screaming into the back of a car. My friends stood in the road to block their way while calling 911 and describing the scene. Some time later, the police arrived on a tresspass complaint made by the program people. They refused (just plain out refused) to even take a report on the beating and kidnapping. So a couple of these folks went back the next day and just refused to go away till a sherrif's officer took a signed statement. As far as we can tell, no real investigation ever ensued. They told us the kid was probably court ordered, but refused to go and give him the option of returning to jail. They told us they couldn't do anything because we didn't know the identity of the kid, to which we responded "Well, then how do you know he's court ordered"?
Nothing has changed, really.
On a prior visit, we saw a car with the Covenant House logo on the door, either delivering or picking a kid up there. You know, Covenant House? The 9 line for runaways that promises "If you're on the street and alone and afraid, Dial 1-800 then keep dialing 9", that Covenant House?
Forget about the 1987 or whatever epoch date for WWASP as a new corporate entity. These folks have got a LOT of "the authorities" convinced over the years.
No doubt, the "authorities" carry a large degree of culpability.
--- Quote ---I don't know how you can tell that from an IP address, unless of course you know all of those who are particpants in the law suit and their specific IP address.
--- End quote ---
Because I can put together all the messages posted by a particular IP or by a net mask, which narrows it down to a provider, usually. It's not exact science. But it's sort of a dead givaway when someone posts both anonymous and by a username from the same IP or gives detail or opinion in one post that contradicts that given in other posts. You'd be surprised (or not) how often people post in response to their own posts, pretending to be someone else piling on in agreement or even attacking their own post. The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is to draw attention away from more important issues.
And, while we're on the topic, I hope all readers understand that this is not only possible, but real easy to do. Before you get too awfully upset over anything posted to these forums, remind yourself that you don't even know for sure who's saying what or what their motive.
That's about all I can say on the topic. Sometimes people post anon because they've got something important to say and they don't trust me (the the total stranger w/ access to the server logs) enough to register. I don't want to violate that trust, so I can't really say who I think it is acting as provocateur here. Just bear in mind, please, that it does happen quite often.
--- Quote ---I don't doubt that some are kids or that some are WWASP supporters, but I do believe the majority are the trekers. I can't prove it, but I don't need to. I am not trying to take them to court. I just know from past experience and private emails that their behavior is consistant. "
--- End quote ---
Trekers? I've seen the term, but not quite sure what it means.
When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
--- End quote ---
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
Deborah:
Carey,
I'm going to play devil's advocate here to hopefully make a point.
You said:
But let us remember that the over all industry is regulated. I do not think the parent who trusted the pediatrician who recommneded the immunization should be held accountable. She was trusting in an individual who had studied medicine. Someone who spent years training. She was trusting a vaccine that had been tested and approved by the FDA. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting uneducated people. The parents who put kids in programs are trusting an unregulated, unproven theory of "behavior modification." The two are not camparable.
****************************
But, YES they are exactly the same.
There is just as much, if not more, information available to the public on the harm of immunizations. How do I know? I chose not to immunize my children and I can tell you, I did a hell of a lot of research, attended lectures, consulted with alternative professionals, etc. And I am baffled at how many parents choose to follow the herd. Same reason parents incarcerate their kids, or one reason, it's easier than engaging. Thinking. Taking responsibility for making your own choices after reviewing everything you can get your hands on.
Did you immunize your kids? If so, would it seem justified to you, if I criticized you and said you should go to jail because you didn't avail yourself to the warnings that are readily available to the public, but blindly trusted your pediatrian to make all the decisions about your children, therefore possibily endangering the health and well being of your child. I could call you a dumb fuck for blindly believing. Does that sit well with you? BTW, many pediatrians don't immunize their own children, but don't hesitate to shoot up their clients, it's their bread and butter. If you had ever required your "professional" MD to sign a statement that s/he would take responsibility if the immunization harmed your child in any way, your kids wouldn't be immunized either. They all know they're dangerous. Hell your respected FDA banned mercury in animal vaccines l-o-n-g before human vaccines- which just recently happened.
And the same is true with psych meds. Refuse to put your kid on Ritalin/Adderall and CPS can take your kids and charge you with medical neglect or worse. FYI, no longer in TX thanks to some wonderful advocates in Austin. No longer can a school principal or teacher (who are NOT so-called psych professionals) mention drugs to a parent. And TX parents no longer have to fear the wrath of CPS. That's how change happens. It's slow. Too slow for me too sometimes. There is no easy answer or solution.
Ginger's analogy is exactly the same. Parents fuck up everyday. All doing the only thing they can with the information and personality they have. Program parents are deceived and lied to and manipulated and conned. Some become aware of it, others don't, for any number of reasons.
Who do you think is going to take action against these program parents??? Who do you HOPE will take action against these parents??? Because that is what your continual arguement sounds like- trying to convince someone who has the power to do so. You have that power to sue atlest one of "those" parents. Start writing letters to lawyers and politicians. Ask them who would have the power and authority to make these parents accountable. See how they answer.
And NO, it is not true that staff at all programs are NOT trained, educated or professional. Where my son was incarcerated everyone was educated and "professional" except the service staff.... and they pulled much of the same shit WWASP does, with the exception that they were a little sleezer..or clever, whichever it might be, about keeping their shit covered up. "Professional" all too often just means they'll be able to screw you in a worse way...and leave your head spinning in the process. Try fighting those "professionals" - who the courts respect- when they have your child in their custody and the child's father employs them to win a court battle. They have no integrity, but when their livlihood is on the line they are totally unscrupulous, and the one's I was envolved with stooped to perjury. And the stronger you advocate for your child, the more deranged they attempt to make you appear. There are some very sick "professionals" out there. The most suicides among "professionals" are psychiatrists. Think about it. If you put your trust in state regulators and "professionals" to guard over teens in programs, you're just as bad off as the parents trusting program staff, imho.
There ain't no Daddy or Lone Ranger or Superman or god that's going to come in and right all the wrongs. We are doing that, a little bit at a time. Your dynamite approach is understandable, but it is not productive. NO ONE is going to hold parents accountable except one individual who takes issue with another particular parent/ professional.
You can't legislate love or intellegence or caring. We live in a culture that puts money before life. Until that changes, this and all the other unbelievable human idiocies will continue.
Anonymous:
Just curious, were your kids home schooled? Everywhere that I have lived they will not let your children attend school without immunizations. We have to bring in the medical card and everything.
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