Kids in Program Credible?

[Shadyacres]

How do you know how old I am?

I dont know your exact age but most Holocaust survivors with any kind of memory of it were born prior to 1940.  Your experience as depicted in your posts indicate you are much younger than that.

Makes me wonder if all your statements here are so accurate... My mother was WWII survivor

I would say most of my statements are very accurate although I am wrong on occasion.  I am sorry your mother had to go through that.

, all her family was killed by the Nazis. That is why I do not need to learn about holocaust in a museum.

I was reading an article about people coming from overseas to visit the museum in Washington DC and the the majority of the visitors had ties back to the holocaust or holocaust survivors themselves.  Your mindset that you defend being closed minded and believing that you know everything about a subject and dont need to learn more spills over into your view of the TTI.  You feel you know everything about it because of your individual tie to it.
There is so much more you could learn about that time period over and above what your mother remembers.  Also if you opened your mind a little more you could learn much more about the TTI as well.




 

Again - your argumentation is very telling, you know nothing about me, yet you spout off your judgement  without knowing the facts. Sad , actually.

I am not judging you martuska, I am sharing my perspective.

...

Yeah, why is everyone always picking on those poor misunderstood Nazis?  They were just trying to help those ungrateful, manipulative jews, right Whooter?  This might be a new low for you.  Maybe YOU should go check out the holocaust museum, and reflect on what happens when man steals the humanity from his fellow man.  The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.  You disgust me.

[Whooter]

Yeah, why is everyone always picking on those poor misunderstood Nazis?  They were just trying to help those ungrateful, manipulative jews, right Whooter?

I believe this is one of the reasons why you lose so much credibility here, shady.  You come out against all forms of programs yet you feel the Nazis are just misunderstood and the jews were being manipulative.

Maybe YOU should go check out the holocaust museum.....

I have been to the Museum, Shady, and I suggest giving some thought to who you choose to align yourself with.  When you are telling us that you are "pro Nazi" yet anti-program tells the readers that you really have no sense of what happened to these people in Germany or you would not take that stance.  You seem to be a little twisted or just dont understand your history much.
I think we can safely assume that you did not visit the holocaust museum (or if you did you closed your eyes and ears) because no one with any compassion could believe what you do after listening and learning about the history of the Jews in Germany before and during the war.



...

[Shadyacres]

Yeah, why is everyone always picking on those poor misunderstood Nazis?  They were just trying to help those ungrateful, manipulative jews, right Whooter?

I believe this is one of the reasons why you lose so much credibility here, shady.  You come out against all forms of programs yet you feel the Nazis are just misunderstood and the jews were being manipulative.

Maybe YOU should go check out the holocaust museum.....

I have been to the Museum, Shady, and I suggest giving some thought to who you choose to align yourself with.  When you are telling us that you are "pro Nazi" yet anti-program tells the readers that you really have no sense of what happened to these people in Germany or you would not take that stance.  You seem to be a little twisted or just dont understand your history much.
I think we can safely assume that you did not visit the holocaust museum (or if you did you closed your eyes and ears) because no one with any compassion could believe what you do after listening and learning about the history of the Jews in Germany before and during the war.

...

Look up sarcasm in the dictionary, genius.  I also said "The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi".  THAT was NOT sarcastic.  I think you know as well as I do that the research into all this "behavior modification" started in those camps.

[Whooter]

Look up sarcasm in the dictionary, genius.

Right, but you need to apply that to someone who is defending the Nazis and/or appears to be a sympathizer to their cause.  I was talking about visiting the Holocaust museum and seeing the horrors that were done by the Nazis during the war.  So you dont fully understand the use of the term "sarcasm", it came across as you miss-read the post or were a Nazi Sympathizer.

I also said "The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi".  THAT was NOT sarcastic.

I think we can agree here.  Although if you were a Nazi sympathizer this phrase may be considered sarcasm.  

 

I think you know as well as I do that the research into all this "behavior modification" started in those camps.

Actually you are grossly misinformed.  Behavior modification has been around for hundreds of years.



...

[Shadyacres]

Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Are you serious?  :flame:

If you ever get a chance to visit Washington DC take some time out to visit the Holocaust Museum.  Just walk thru the museum and read and listen, really listen.  Listen to the words of the survivors and the tails of their experiences the loved ones the lose and the hardship they endured.  You will not find one of them ever saying that all Germans are evil etc.  They speak about the occurrences naturally.  Life still occurs even under the most horrible circumstances.
If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view).  Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here.  Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc.  Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool.  But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them.  My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility.  I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.

...

No, all Germans weren't evil, but the vast majority of them were evil enough, or gullible enough, to be seduced or intimidated by an ABSOLUTELY evil government.  Much like the vast majority of program parents are selfish enough, or gullible enough, to think that SENDING THEIR KID AWAY and BLAMING THEM for all of the families problems will help bring them "back into the family" and back to "healthy living".  I will say this again;  If you can't be bothered to raise your kid, IT ISN'T YOUR KIDS FAULT SO DO NOT PUNISH THEM FOR IT!  Send them to a REGULAR, non-punitive, non-"behavior modification", non-"emotional growth" boarding school, make it a nice one.  It is not easy being a kid who knows that his family does not want him.  You are sick Whooter, seek help.

[Whooter]

No, all Germans weren't evil, but the vast majority of them were evil enough, or gullible enough, to be seduced by an ABSOLUTELY evil government.  Much like the vast majority of program parents are selfish enough, or gullible enough, to think that SENDING THEIR KID AWAY and BLAMING THEM for all of the families problems will help bring them "back into the family" and back to "healthy living".  I will say this again;  If you can't be bothered to raise your kid, IT ISN'T YOUR KIDS FAULT SO DO NOT PUNISH THEM FOR IT!  Send them to a REGULAR, non-punitive, non-"behavior modification", non-"emotional growth" boarding school.  You are sick Whooter, seek help.

If parents didnt care about how their kid turned out or didnt want to raise them then they would just do nothing.  They would put the $100,000 towards retirement and let the kid head down his own destructive path.  If a kid gets cancer some parents may decide to do nothing and keep them home and hope for the best.  Others may ship them off to hospitals to have other people fix the kids (as you call it) and have doctors do the job for them.  It all depends on your perspective and what you think is right for the family and for your child.
Some parents "home school" their kids and other parents ship them off to have strangers do the job for them.  Some parents cook for their children and other have total strangers cook and serve them at McDonalds.  I guess you could say one set of parents cares more for their child then the other but which ones?  and who gets to decide?

Does the parent who seeks help and spends $100,000 to try to help their child care more than the parent who turns a blind eye and hopes for the best?  The parents who decide to forgo the copay and keep their child home from the hospital?



...

[Shadyacres]

No, all Germans weren't evil, but the vast majority of them were evil enough, or gullible enough, to be seduced by an ABSOLUTELY evil government.  Much like the vast majority of program parents are selfish enough, or gullible enough, to think that SENDING THEIR KID AWAY and BLAMING THEM for all of the families problems will help bring them "back into the family" and back to "healthy living".  I will say this again;  If you can't be bothered to raise your kid, IT ISN'T YOUR KIDS FAULT SO DO NOT PUNISH THEM FOR IT!  Send them to a REGULAR, non-punitive, non-"behavior modification", non-"emotional growth" boarding school.  You are sick Whooter, seek help.

If parents didnt care about how their kid turned out or didnt want to raise them then they would just do nothing.  They would put the $100,000 towards retirement and let the kid head down his own destructive path.
...

I disagree, if they did nothing then the kid would continue to embarrass them with their music, style of dress, "undesirable" friends, etc..   Their neighbors and the other parents at the PTA meetings would continue to point and whisper, which is something that most of these parents can't bear.  They care less about their children than they do about their own "reputations" as parents.  Maybe the "destructiveness" of the kid's path has been just a wee bit exaggerated to justify getting their embarrassing ass out of the house.  And, if you put your kid in a behavior modification school or the like, you BETTER have money set aside for your retirement because that kid will have just as much sympathy towards you as you had toward him and will see your poverty as your problem.

[Whooter]

I disagree, if they did nothing then the kid would continue to embarrass them with their music, style of dress, "undesirable" friends, etc..   Their neighbors and the other parents at the PTA meetings would continue to point and whisper, which is something that most of these parents can't bear.  They care less about their children than they do about their own "reputations" as parents.  Maybe the "destructiveness" of the kid's path has been just a wee bit exaggerated to justify getting their embarrassing ass out of the house.

I think we disagree greatly here Shady.  This may be reflective you your own situation but it is not the norm.  I am sorry this happened to you if this was the case.  Most of the kids are in programs to get the help that they need and deserve to get.  If we could do one thing and require a third party sign-off this would go a long way in reducing the number kids who are placed unnecessarily.


 

And, if you put your kid in a behavior modification school or the like, you BETTER have money set aside for your retirement because that kid will have just as much sympathy towards you as you had toward him and will see your poverty as your problem.

Very few parents over the past several decades rely on their kids to support them during retirement.  This was popular in the 1800's and earlier but people have a safety net now with Social security.  The next generation (most of the posters here) will have their 401k's to rely on at retirement.



...

[Whooter]

Getting back on topic again I don’t think being in a program makes the child’s voice any less credible.  If the child had been manipulative and not very truthful prior to going into a program than they will not be any less so after they initially arrive there.  Even a child who rarely lied may be motivated to do so once they are exposed to the hard work of waking up every day early, making their beds, doing chores going to school, clearing the table after meals, studying etc.  I could see a few phones calls going out to mom and dad saying they were being tortured and wanting to come home.

But I don’t think we can just brand all kids in programs as not being credible.  Each child should be treated as an individual.   I think over time the trust comes, the manipulations wane and the family works on their issues more as a unit.



...

[Shadyacres]

RED TEXT IS MINE

Getting back on topic again I don’t think being in a program makes the child’s voice any less credible.  If the child had been manipulative and not very truthful prior to going into a program than they will not be any less so after they initially arrive there.  Even a child who rarely lied may be motivated to do so once they are exposed to the hard work of waking up every day early, making their beds, doing chores going to school, clearing the table after meals, studying,starving, being beaten or "restrained", being bullied by "more responsible" oldcomers, being denied sleep, being told you are a worthless and ungrateful liar, being told that you are an incurable addict and you will be struggling with it your WHOLE LIFE, being forced to lie because the program WILL NOT ACCEPT THE TRUTH etc.  I could see a few phones calls going out to mom and dad saying they were being tortured and wanting to come home.

But I don’t think we can just brand all kids in programs as not being credible.  Each child should be treated as an individual.   I think over time the trust comes, the manipulations wane and the family works on their issues more as a unit.



...

Really?  I think it can be safely assumed that the kids who say "This program saved my life!" are certainly NOT credible.  How could they know this?  Did the program catch them after they jumped off a bridge?  Snatch them from the path of a speeding truck?  No.  They have OBVIOUSLY been coached to say this as part of the brainwashing that they and their parents have received.  According to most of these places, any kid who has smoked pot will die now without their help.

[Whooter]

Really?  I think it can be safely assumed that the kids who say "This program saved my life!" are certainly NOT credible.  How could they know this?  Did the program catch them after they jumped off a bridge?  Snatch them from the path of a speeding truck?  No.  They have OBVIOUSLY been coached to say this as part of the brainwashing that they and their parents have received.  According to most of these places, any kid who has smoked pot will die now without their help.

Mostly hindsight, looking back on their life and seeing where they were heading prior to being placed.  Meeting up with old friends and seeing their friends have not matured at the same pace and are in a bad space etc.  Maybe you dont see it because things have never turned around for you in a dramatic way or maybe not at all.

I think what you are trying to say is if someone has only good things to say about programs and seems over the top, never saying anything negative about thier stay there.  Similar to people who have only negative things to say about programs, believe that "All" programs are evil and abusive.  When you listen to people who are extreme on either end then their story comes across as fabricated or not credible.



...

[Shadyacres]

Really?  I think it can be safely assumed that the kids who say "This program saved my life!" are certainly NOT credible.  How could they know this?  Did the program catch them after they jumped off a bridge?  Snatch them from the path of a speeding truck?  No.  They have OBVIOUSLY been coached to say this as part of the brainwashing that they and their parents have received.  According to most of these places, any kid who has smoked pot will die now without their help.

Mostly hindsight, looking back on their life and seeing where they were heading prior to being placed.  Meeting up with old friends and seeing their friends have not matured at the same pace and are in a bad space etc.  Maybe you dont see it because things have never turned around for you in a dramatic way or maybe not at all.

On the contrary, many of us feel that our lives were going along fine ( if not perfectly ) until being forced into a mind control cult, which DEFINITELY turned things around, for the worse.  And most of my old friends did far BETTER than me, despite being more "rebellious" and "less disciplined" than me, because they did not have to get over the horrible trauma of living through one of these places.

I think what you are trying to say is if someone has only good things to say about programs and seems over the top, never saying anything negative about thier stay there.  Similar to people who have only negative things to say about programs, believe that "All" programs are evil and abusive.  When you listen to people who are extreme on either end then their story comes across as fabricated or not credible.

...

You think wrong.  The goal of these places is to make the child HATE his former self and all aspects of his former life.  Any glowing review from a former resident is just proof that those brainwashing tactics work, at least temporarily.  I do not think it is "over the top", which implies dishonesty.  I think it is Stockholm Syndrome.  They are afraid to challenge what they have been told so forcefully and repeatedly by people who had COMPLETE control over them.  It is obviously wishful thinking on your part that our "stories come across as fabricated or not credible." because YOU think they are extreme.  Your opinion means nothing here, you are literally the only person here who has (a) never been in one of these places, (b) admitted to having a "fiduciary interest" in Aspen, and (c) spent years here trying to discredit survivors.

[Whooter]

You think wrong.  The goal of these places is to make the child HATE his former self and all aspects of his former life.  Any glowing review from a former resident is just proof that those brainwashing tactics work, at least temporarily.  I do not think it is "over the top", which implies dishonesty.  I think it is Stockholm Syndrome.  They are afraid to challenge what they have been told so forcefully and repeatedly by people who had COMPLETE control over them.  It is obviously wishful thinking on your part that our "stories come across as fabricated or not credible." because YOU think they are extreme.  Your opinion means nothing here, you are literally the only person here who has (a) never been in one of these places, (b) admitted to having a "fiduciary interest" in Aspen, and (c) spent years here trying to discredit survivors.

You have the disadvantage of only being able to speak from your single personal experience based on one program.  There are many programs besides the one that you attended.  I am sorry that you had such a bad experience, Shady, but it is not representative of the industry as a whole.  You dont even fully understand Stockholm syndrome or you would not be bringing it up.  You experienced a totally different world then the majority of the kids do.
I have seen first hand and on many kids the bond being reformed with their families,  the kids understand themselves much more.  They can criticize the program and themselves and see things more objectively.

I think that you were damaged by the program you were in, Shady,  and can only see the industry through your own experience and therefore cannot even fathom the thought of these kids doing better and moving on to a better live.  You view this as brainwashing or Stockholm syndrome.

I have never profited from the industry (in fact I paid a good sum into it! lol),  never spent years discrediting anyone and yes I have never attended a program but you have never attend one of these programs which we speak about today.  I have atleast been to them and witnessed their success.  You have never witnessed any of these successes.  For some reason it bothers you that these kids are doing well and you need to label them to help cover your eyes and ears which is sad.



...

[maruska]

How do you know how old I am?

I dont know your exact age but most Holocaust survivors with any kind of memory of it were born prior to 1940.  Your experience as depicted in your posts indicate you are much younger than that.

Makes me wonder if all your statements here are so accurate... My mother was WWII survivor

I would say most of my statements are very accurate although I am wrong on occasion.  I am sorry your mother had to go through that.

, all her family was killed by the Nazis. That is why I do not need to learn about holocaust in a museum.

I was reading an article about people coming from overseas to visit the museum in Washington DC and the the majority of the visitors had ties back to the holocaust or holocaust survivors themselves.  Your mindset that you defend being closed minded and believing that you know everything about a subject and dont need to learn more spills over into your view of the TTI.  You feel you know everything about it because of your individual tie to it.
There is so much more you could learn about that time period over and above what your mother remembers.  Also if you opened your mind a little more you could learn much more about the TTI as well.




 

Again - your argumentation is very telling, you know nothing about me, yet you spout off your judgement  without knowing the facts. Sad , actually.

I am not judging you martuska, I am sharing my perspective.



...

I never said I know everything about holocaust....but I think I know more about it then you from your museum visit....(And I asssure  you I visited many museums and concetration camps, it is part of our European education system to visit those places) ...my point was,try to tell a holocaust survivor, that he should not be so negative and remember the good times in concetration camps...particularly how the nazis were good to children...try it...

You are wrong, terribly wrong...You  have no idea how offending and cruel your words are.  


 
And also - I love to learn, I am learning more and more about troubled teens industry (not only here on fornits I assure you) and the more I learn the more I am sure, that is not the way to go.

[Whooter]

I never said I know everything about holocaust....but I think I know more about it then you from your museum visit....(And I asssure you I visited many museums and concetration camps, it is part of our European education system to visit those places) ...my point was,try to tell a holocaust survivor, that he should not be so negative and remember the good times in concetration camps...particularly how the nazis were good to children...try it...

You are wrong, terribly wrong...You have no idea how offending and cruel your words are.

... and I never said to tell holocaust survivors anything, that they were nice to children or to remember the good times (could we call your post lying?). I asked you to "listen" to their stories, not to tell them anything. This is why people should listen more, maruska, you misinterpret things and then judge people for you misunderstandings. This may be why you are so anti-program? You dont listen well and you have a tendency to judge and categorize people.

And also - I love to learn, I am learning more and more about troubled teens industry (not only here on fornits I assure you) and the more I learn the more I am sure, that is not the way to go.

Well, in some of your posts you seem open minded and in others you just breeze over what people say and then interpret it anyway you like.




...