Kids in Program Credible?

[Awake]

I really believe it is important to understand how negative feedback can be abusive and how that is facilitated in troubled teen programs.

Whooter, let’s say for instance I am a staff in a program and we are in a group session together. At some point you were dishonest about something, anything really, maybe you were caught hiding a nose ring that was part of your old image that you weren’t supposed to have. Let’s say I turn to another member in the group besides you and ask, “Hey so and so, when someone lies, what does that make them?”

In fact can someone else other than Whooter answer this for me? When someone lies what does that make them?


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[Shadyacres]

You know damn well I was referring to the "issues"  these places INFLICT.  If I had low self esteem going into that place, it was nothing compared to how low it was upon leaving.  That program also claimed to be "building family ties and self esteem".  "That's why we require the participation of the whole family"  Mrs. Pete used to say.  Again, they were LYING.  They knew exactly what they were doing to us, breaking our spirits.  And the best way to do that is to turn our own parents against us, they become a tool in our "breakdown".  These people did not know a damned thing about drug culture so, by definition, all the things they told our parents to scare them were LIES.  It seems to me that, at least in the case of LIFE, several "upstanding citizens" were scared shitless of youth culture and designed a way to keep their streets and shopping malls peaceful and quiet; by imprisoning and torturing all the "problem" young people without any kind of trial or due process.  The old and boring declared WAR on the young because the way we dressed and talked, and maybe the fact that we smoked pot, TERRIFIED THEM due to their own bigotry and personal prejudices.

I agree,  the "establishment" as we called them just wanted us off the streets.  It wasnt just the drugs it was our long hair and lack of a tie.  We didnt respect their generation and for good reason with the way they were handling Vietnam and voting assholes into office.  They started a war on drugs when they didnt even understand what or who they were fighting.  I think that is why programs in the 1970 did so well in keeping their beds full.  I might have ended up in one myself if I had been caught dealing or doing drugs, but I was cool about it and keep up with my studies and managed to stay out of trouble.

And, apparently, YOUR mother was not as impressionable as wet clay.

I dont think programs back then gave a damn about self esteem or building a family bond, they just wanted the kids fixed, cleaned up to look presentable.  Now a days things are a little different, most parents tolerate their kids a little more and give them more space to grow into themselves.

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Are you kidding?  WWASP programs seem to be trying to eclipse Straight Inc. with the number of abuses reported against them.  They are having a "Discovery" seminar for parents in Las Vegas next weekend, you know.

[Whooter]

Are you kidding?  WWASP programs seem to be trying to eclipse Straight Inc. with the number of abuses reported against it.  They are having a "Discovery" seminar for parents in Las Vegas next weekend, you know.

I have heard about reports coming from WWASP programs.  But I never read where they represent all programs.  One of the traps people fall into here is they read, for example, about a kid who had to sit and face the wall for 12 hours in a program and they take this information and falsely assume every kid in every program sits in front of a wall for 12 hours a day.



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[Whooter]

I really believe it is important to understand how negative feedback can be abusive and how that is facilitated in troubled teen programs.

Whooter, let’s say for instance I am a staff in a program and we are in a group session together. At some point you were dishonest about something, anything really, maybe you were caught hiding a nose ring that was part of your old image that you weren’t supposed to have. Let’s say I turn to another member in the group besides you and ask, “Hey so and so, when someone lies, what does that make them?”

In fact can someone else other than Whooter answer this for me? When someone lies what does that make them?


.

This is sort of a snap shot.  We really dont know the history of this child.  Maybe the staff has been working with this persons' honesty issues and they havent responded very well and finally decided to bring it up in group.  Before sending the kid home or giving up on them it is important to see if they respond to peer pressure maybe.




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[Shadyacres]

Are you kidding?  WWASP programs seem to be trying to eclipse Straight Inc. with the number of abuses reported against it.  They are having a "Discovery" seminar for parents in Las Vegas next weekend, you know.

I have heard about reports coming from WWASP programs.  But I never read where they represent all programs.  One of the traps people fall into here is they read, for example, about a kid who had to sit and face the wall for 12 hours in a program and they take this information and falsely assume every kid in every program sits in front of a wall for 12 hours a day.

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No, some of them lie face down on a concrete floor in "OP" for days.  Some are drugged into a stupor.  Some have to perform manual labor.  Some have to run "punishment laps" until they vomit, or if that isn't deemed thorough enough, until they collapse.  Some are raped or badly beaten, their assailants protected by the program's policy of "anonymity" and "confidentiality".  Some are driven to suicide.  Yes, there is much more diversity today, I see what you mean.  Oh, and a person who lies is a LIAR, like the people who convinced my mother that I was some kind of time bomb waiting to explode and kill the whole family ( or whatever the hell they told her ).

[Whooter]

Are you kidding?  WWASP programs seem to be trying to eclipse Straight Inc. with the number of abuses reported against it.  They are having a "Discovery" seminar for parents in Las Vegas next weekend, you know.

I have heard about reports coming from WWASP programs.  But I never read where they represent all programs.  One of the traps people fall into here is they read, for example, about a kid who had to sit and face the wall for 12 hours in a program and they take this information and falsely assume every kid in every program sits in front of a wall for 12 hours a day.

..

No, some of them lie face down on a concrete floor in "OP" for days.  Some are drugged into a stupor.  Some have to perform manual labor.  Some have to run "punishment laps" until they vomit, or if that isn't deemed thorough enough, until they collapse.  Some are raped or badly beaten, their assailants protected by the program's policy of "anonymity" and "confidentiality".  Some are driven to suicide.  Yes, there is much more diversity today, I see what you mean.  Oh, and a person who lies is a LIAR, like the people who convinced my mother that I was some kind of time bomb waiting to explode and kill the whole family ( or whatever the hell they told her ).

There is much more diversity today and I dont think you would understand because you have only been able to see the negative stories here but there are many kids who benefit from these programs every day, Shady.  I dont think one kid getting hurt justifies the thousands that are helped but we cant take the approach of shutting the industry down because of a few bad apples.  We need to keep raising awareness like we have and the programs will continue to improve and the abusive ones will close down like we have seen them doing.



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[Shadyacres]

Are you kidding?  WWASP programs seem to be trying to eclipse Straight Inc. with the number of abuses reported against it.  They are having a "Discovery" seminar for parents in Las Vegas next weekend, you know.

I have heard about reports coming from WWASP programs.  But I never read where they represent all programs.  One of the traps people fall into here is they read, for example, about a kid who had to sit and face the wall for 12 hours in a program and they take this information and falsely assume every kid in every program sits in front of a wall for 12 hours a day.

..

No, some of them lie face down on a concrete floor in "OP" for days.  Some are drugged into a stupor.  Some have to perform manual labor.  Some have to run "punishment laps" until they vomit, or if that isn't deemed thorough enough, until they collapse.  Some are raped or badly beaten, their assailants protected by the program's policy of "anonymity" and "confidentiality".  Some are driven to suicide.  Yes, there is much more diversity today, I see what you mean.  Oh, and a person who lies is a LIAR, like the people who convinced my mother that I was some kind of time bomb waiting to explode and kill the whole family ( or whatever the hell they told her ).

There is much more diversity today and I dont think you would understand because you have only been able to see the negative stories here but there are many kids who benefit from these programs every day, Shady.  I dont think one kid getting hurt justifies the thousands that are helped but we cant take the approach of shutting the industry down because of a few bad apples.

YES WE CAN!


  We need to keep raising awareness like we have and the programs will continue to improve and the abusive ones will close down like we have seen them doing.

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Twenty five years have gone by and my mom still doesn't believe that LIFE was abusive.  These programs are too good at covering up their myriad transgressions and the well being of even one child is not negotiable, not to be traded away for the "greater good".  The only way is to shut them all down and start teaching these kids, and raising them, right in the first place.  In my observation it is almost never the child's fault, they are a child and still learning, their problems arise from incompetent or self centered and self righteous parents, or from some kind of bigotry at their school, or some other crap they should not have to worry about, like sexual or physical abuse.

[Whooter]

Twenty five years have gone by and my mom still doesn't believe that LIFE was abusive.  These programs are too good at covering up their myriad transgressions and the well being of even one child is not negotiable, not to be traded away for the "greater good".  The only way is to shut them all down and start teaching these kids, and raising them, right in the first place.  In my observation it is almost never the child's fault, they are a child and still learning, their problems arise from incompetent or self centered and self righteous parents, or from some kind of bigotry at their school, or some other crap they should not have to worry about, like sexual or physical abuse.

You have a very strong bias against the industry and I am sure it is justified because of what you went through.  A kid who was told he would be fine and be able to play football again only to wake up from an operation to find his leg amputated would not be able to easily be convinced that doctors are not evil shits and that hospitals should be shut down.  He would not give a dam about the success stories and all the other kids who were helped buy hospitals.

My experience is that it is a combination of the child's and parents fault,  there needs to be changes made at home while the child is in the program.  Maybe the parents have a drinking problem or anger issues or are not very good at parenting.  Maybe they allowed their child too much freedom etc. These issues all come out during the child's stay at the program.  The child's psychologist works with the family to resolve the family issues and create a seamless transition back home and a safer environment for the child once he/she returns.

Why would we want to shut these programs down?  Why deny the help that these families and children need?



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[Awake]

I really believe it is important to understand how negative feedback can be abusive and how that is facilitated in troubled teen programs.

Whooter, let’s say for instance I am a staff in a program and we are in a group session together. At some point you were dishonest about something, anything really, maybe you were caught hiding a nose ring that was part of your old image that you weren’t supposed to have. Let’s say I turn to another member in the group besides you and ask, “Hey so and so, when someone lies, what does that make them?”

In fact can someone else other than Whooter answer this for me? When someone lies what does that make them?

.

This is sort of a snap shot.  We really dont know the history of this child.  Maybe the staff has been working with this persons' honesty issues and they havent responded very well and finally decided to bring it up in group.  Before sending the kid home or giving up on them it is important to see if they respond to peer pressure maybe.

Are you saying that a program’s manipulation of peer pressure can be abusive? I would agree with that.


To clarify a point I was making, If I go around the room and ask each person ‘If someone lies, what does that make them?’ and they all respond, ‘they are a liar’, and then I turn to you,( and perhaps you may reflect on your own behavior here on fornits), and ask you, Whooter, what do you think that makes you?

What is your honest response to that?

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[RobertBruce]

but there are many kids who benefit from these programs every day,

Whooter what is your basis for this claim? How would you privy to this information?

[Shadyacres]

Why would we want to shut these programs down?  Why deny the help that these families and children need?

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Well, I want to shut them down because they have a long and solid history of leaving people emotionally scarred long after they stop being children.  Who says the children need help?  I would rather see PARENTS locked into a program, since their kids problems are mostly their fault.

[Whooter]

Why would we want to shut these programs down?  Why deny the help that these families and children need?

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Well, I want to shut them down because they have a long and solid history of leaving people emotionally scarred long after they stop being children.

Lets expose and shut those specific places down.  We should allow the industry to still help those kids who are benefiting from their services.

 

Who says the children need help?

The childrens therapists, their parents, school guidance counselors etc.

 

I would rather see PARENTS locked into a program, since their kids problems are mostly their fault.

Even in the cases where the parents are mostly at fault it would be difficult to have the parent leave the home for any extended period of time for treatment  because the other children in the home would need an income and parents to survive.  The best scenario is to remove the child from the environment and then allow both parents and child to work on their issues.

I think that you are in the majority in your thinking, Shady.  Most people here on fornits would like to see the industry shut down as a whole, but many here have only focused on the negative aspects of the industry so it is understandable.



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[RobertBruce]

but many here have only focused on the negative aspects of the industry so it is understandable.

Are there positive ones?

[maruska]

I don´t need to go to any museum to learn about  holocaust.  

You are too young to have experienced it first hand so you must be one of those people who wants to forget history and view museums as a waste of money.

I wish I would not know so much about it.

There are those people like yourself who wish they didnt know so much about the TTI.  But unlike yourself I think it is important to continue to educate people and bring them the facts about places whether it be a program in Utah or a Wilderness program in South Carolina.

I hope all parents looking for information will learn through this what kind of person you are, Whooter, because your argumentation is telling.

Thank you, Maruska, I think everyone can agree that I am open minded and sometime rely on the past to give me road signs for the future.  Whereas you like to just close your mind and pretend you know everything.



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How do you know how old I am? Makes me wonder if all your statements here are so accurate... My mother was WWII survivor , all her family was killed by the Nazis. That is why I do not need to learn about holocaust in a museum.
 Again - your argumentation is very telling, you know nothing about me, yet you spout off your judgement  without knowing the facts. Sad , actually.

[Whooter]

How do you know how old I am?

I dont know your exact age but most Holocaust survivors with any kind of memory of it were born prior to 1940.  Your experience as depicted in your posts indicate you are much younger than that.

Makes me wonder if all your statements here are so accurate... My mother was WWII survivor

I would say most of my statements are very accurate although I am wrong on occasion.  I am sorry your mother had to go through that.

, all her family was killed by the Nazis. That is why I do not need to learn about holocaust in a museum.

I was reading an article about people coming from overseas to visit the museum in Washington DC and the the majority of the visitors had ties back to the holocaust or holocaust survivors themselves.  Your mindset that you defend being closed minded and believing that you know everything about a subject and dont need to learn more spills over into your view of the TTI.  You feel you know everything about it because of your individual tie to it.
There is so much more you could learn about that time period over and above what your mother remembers.  Also if you opened your mind a little more you could learn much more about the TTI as well.




 

Again - your argumentation is very telling, you know nothing about me, yet you spout off your judgement  without knowing the facts. Sad , actually.

I am not judging you martuska, I am sharing my perspective.



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