Author Topic: Taylor Hurst  (Read 11912 times)

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Offline Guest3

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Taylor Hurst
« on: November 01, 2010, 08:21:18 PM »
Another HLA "success" story... Taylor Hurst murdered his pregnant fiancee.

Gosh - why doesn't Ridge Creek use him as their Poster Boy????

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/featu ... rpass-2009

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a ... 60661/1116 [list=][/list]
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 09:06:55 PM »
Quote from: "Guest3"
Another HLA "success" story... Taylor Hurst murdered his pregnant fiancee.

Gosh - why doesn't Ridge Creek use him as their Poster Boy????

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/featu ... rpass-2009

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a ... 60661/1116 [list=][/list]

Whoa, I read both links and I believe this is one of these very bazaar posts which makes me wonder how many posters here think.  I have no idea what they mean.  The links you presented, Guest3, have nothing to do with HLA.  This murder occurred in Massachusetts and HLA is in Georgia.  But I am sure in your mind somewhere you have made some connection that blames HLA for these events.   So lets hear it:  Is this guy a staff person who sneaks up to Massachusetts and kills people?  Did this guy go to HLA and now HLA is responsible for everything he does for the rest of his life? Did they brainwash this kid to wait several years and then program him to kill people?  Is there a conspiracy that is unfolding?  Did the woman go to HLA and was so screwed up by it that this Taylor kid killed her to put her out of her misery?

There are people who graduated from Harvard who steal millions of dollars from people in scams.  There are graduates from Yale University who  kill people and abuse their wives and kids.  What is wrong with you?  How can you possibly connect a dotted line back to HLA on this?  Is Yale and Harvard responsible for the actions of all their graduates?

Why is everyone so desperate to dirty up programs that they have to resort to extreme conspiracy theories and grab any random crime and try to blame it on a program?  If these places are so bad why make up stories about that are not true?



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Offline Ursus

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 09:44:48 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Guest3"
Another HLA "success" story... Taylor Hurst murdered his pregnant fiancee.

Gosh - why doesn't Ridge Creek use him as their Poster Boy????

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/featu ... rpass-2009

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a ... 60661/1116 [list type=][/list]
Whoa, I read both links and I believe this is one of these very bazaar posts which makes me wonder how many posters here think.  I have no idea what they mean.  The links you presented, Guest3, have nothing to do with HLA.  This murder occurred in Massachusetts and HLA is in Georgia.  But I am sure in your mind somewhere you have made some connection that blames HLA for these events.   So lets hear it]
Spin spin spin...  :beat:

Why is it so difficult to understand, Whooter? You just don't want to acknowledge that this kind of thing is part and parcel of the fall-out from having been subjected to a thought reform program! There's a cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to assimilate that — or even just trying to come to some understanding of it — vis a vis the "real world." Kids sometimes snap from that, sometimes violently.

These programs clearly do not prepare everyone, perhaps anyone, for a normal mode of existence or a healthy outlook on life.

Incidentally, in case it wasn't obvious, or in case you felt disinclined to google it 'cuz that would have surely obviated ~90% of your condescending diatribe, Taylor Hurst was a former student at HLA.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 08:20:27 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Spin spin spin...  :beat:

Why is it so difficult to understand, Whooter? You just don't want to acknowledge that this kind of thing is part and parcel of the fall-out from having been subjected to a thought reform program! There's a cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to assimilate that — or even just trying to come to some understanding of it — vis a vis the "real world." Kids sometimes snap from that, sometimes violently.

These programs clearly do not prepare everyone, perhaps anyone, for a normal mode of existence or a healthy outlook on life.

Incidentally, in case it wasn't obvious, or in case you felt disinclined to google it 'cuz that would have surely obviated ~90% of your condescending diatribe, Taylor Hurst was a former student at HLA.


Come-on, Ursus.  I read the article and there is no indication that HLA had anything to do with it.  If you took a room full of alcoholics and put them through AA and then years later one of the group kills 3 people in a alcohol fueled rage or drunk driving accident then we could not Conclude that AA caused this.  We may conclude that AA was not effective but even this would be a stretch because we do not know if this person was sober a few years after he left AA.

Maybe the kid is a borderline sociopath and would have killed people in his class in highschool but HLA helped him to handle his rage better and after the program he slowly resorted back to his old ways.  Maybe this kid started taking drugs or alcohol.  Maybe he stopped taking medication which would have kept his rage under control.  There are so many different possibilities which are equally viable.  

Why try to draw a dotted line back to one event (HLA) and say this is the cause without knowing what events were effecting this person at the time of the killings?  I have seen people try to do the same thing when a child commits suicide years after graduating from a program.  To me it is just an obvious attempt to try to place blame on the programs for something they have no control over.  Maybe some of these programs are not the best but it makes people look foolish to try to blame them for events outside their boundaries.



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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 09:01:12 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Spin spin spin...  :beat:

Why is it so difficult to understand, Whooter? You just don't want to acknowledge that this kind of thing is part and parcel of the fall-out from having been subjected to a thought reform program! There's a cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to assimilate that — or even just trying to come to some understanding of it — vis a vis the "real world." Kids sometimes snap from that, sometimes violently.

These programs clearly do not prepare everyone, perhaps anyone, for a normal mode of existence or a healthy outlook on life.

Incidentally, in case it wasn't obvious, or in case you felt disinclined to google it 'cuz that would have surely obviated ~90% of your condescending diatribe, Taylor Hurst was a former student at HLA.


Come-on, Ursus.  I read the article and there is no indication that HLA had anything to do with it.  If you took a room full of alcoholics and put them through AA and then years later one of the group kills 3 people in a alcohol fueled rage or drunk driving accident then we could not Conclude that AA caused this.  We may conclude that AA was not effective but even this would be a stretch because we do not know if this person was sober a few years after he left AA.

As useless and counterproductive as I believe AA to be, they do not hold people captive, which makes their coercive thought reform tactics much less dangerous than those used in places like HLA.  Whooter, are you seriously just going to ignore all of the cases of PTSD caused by these places?  I will again remind you that these programs use a "treatment model" that is very close to one that has been recognized as torture by the United Nations.

Maybe the kid is a borderline sociopath and would have killed people in his class in highschool but HLA helped him to handle his rage better and after the program he slowly resorted back to his old ways.  Maybe this kid started taking drugs or alcohol.  Maybe he stopped taking medication which would have kept his rage under control.  There are so many different possibilities which are equally viable.  

It is far more likely that HLA actually turned him into a sociopath, as that is the best type of person to be if you want to be successful in one of those programs.  It is mentioned in the article that he was indeed using drugs and alcohol, wasn't HLA supposed to cure him of that?  Where did all of his rage come from, I wonder?

Why try to draw a dotted line back to one event (HLA) and say this is the cause without knowing what events were effecting this person at the time of the killings?  I have seen people try to do the same thing when a child commits suicide years after graduating from a program.  To me it is just an obvious attempt to try to place blame on the programs for something they have no control over.  Maybe some of these programs are not the best but it makes people look foolish to try to blame them for events outside their boundaries.

...

What is outside their boundaries?  Their "treatment" effects the kid for his whole life.  You know as well as I do Whooter that one of the hallmarks of these places is a kind of dissociative amnesia.  The brain protects itself by "forgetting" extremely traumatic events, but it is usually only temporary.  Often the person will have vivid flashbacks and nightmares that might not even start until they have been out of the program for 10 or 20 years.
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Offline Dysfunction Junction

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM »
These programs create little Taylor Hursts all the time.  Sick kids get sicker.  Healthy kids get sick.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 09:47:13 AM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
It is mentioned in the article that he was indeed using drugs and alcohol, wasn't HLA supposed to cure him of that?

I don’t think any of us know why he entered HLA.  Maybe he was there for abuse issues and they are just now emerging.  I don’t think anyone believes that programs cure anything especial drugs and alcohol.   Many of these programs are designed to get the kid back on track, build up their self esteem and strengthen family ties.  Taylor may have been at HLA to help him with his academic issues, who knows.

Quote
What is outside their boundaries? Their "treatment" effects the kid for his whole life. You know as well as I do Whooter that one of the hallmarks of these places is a kind of dissociative amnesia. The brain protects itself by "forgetting" extremely traumatic events, but it is usually only temporary. Often the person will have vivid flashbacks and nightmares that might not even start until they have been out of the program for 10 or 20 years.

If something extremely traumatic occurs while they are in the program then I would agree.  But again the program is designed to get the kids back on track.   The kids are not traumatized.  After they get out they can choose to go back to their old way of life if they want but many chose not to because they were shown that they have control of their future and can be successful if they choose to.  If they want to go back and sit in their bedroom and do drugs the rest of their life then that is their choice.  The school cannot be blamed for that.



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Offline Ursus

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Pbfffttt !!
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 10:09:11 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Spin spin spin...  :beat:

Why is it so difficult to understand, Whooter? You just don't want to acknowledge that this kind of thing is part and parcel of the fall-out from having been subjected to a thought reform program! There's a cognitive dissonance that comes from trying to assimilate that — or even just trying to come to some understanding of it — vis a vis the "real world." Kids sometimes snap from that, sometimes violently.

These programs clearly do not prepare everyone, perhaps anyone, for a normal mode of existence or a healthy outlook on life.

Incidentally, in case it wasn't obvious, or in case you felt disinclined to google it 'cuz that would have surely obviated ~90% of your condescending diatribe, Taylor Hurst was a former student at HLA.
Come-on, Ursus.  I read the article and there is no indication that HLA had anything to do with it.  If you took a room full of alcoholics and put them through AA and then years later one of the group kills 3 people in a alcohol fueled rage or drunk driving accident then we could not Conclude that AA caused this.  We may conclude that AA was not effective but even this would be a stretch because we do not know if this person was sober a few years after he left AA.

Maybe the kid is a borderline sociopath and would have killed people in his class in highschool but HLA helped him to handle his rage better and after the program he slowly resorted back to his old ways.  Maybe this kid started taking drugs or alcohol.  Maybe he stopped taking medication which would have kept his rage under control.  There are so many different possibilities which are equally viable.  

Why try to draw a dotted line back to one event (HLA) and say this is the cause without knowing what events were effecting this person at the time of the killings?  I have seen people try to do the same thing when a child commits suicide years after graduating from a program.  To me it is just an obvious attempt to try to place blame on the programs for something they have no control over.  Maybe some of these programs are not the best but it makes people look foolish to try to blame them for events outside their boundaries.
More spin!  :beat:  :beat:  Mix in a lil truth with a whole lot of naysaying crapola, and maybe the readers won't have a friggin' clue.

Sure, maybe Taylor Hurst was a borderline sociopath, maybe not. We really don't know. If so, it certainly speaks volumes for the kind of "student" Hidden Lake Academy was admitting back then. More likely, Mr. Hurst had/has some anger issues which HLA neglected to fully address, not to mention neglected to assist him in learning some relevant coping skills, not to mention probably adding to the reservoir of things to be angry about!

And yes, I do believe some drug use was involved in Mr. Hurst's case, which is yet another arena of inadequacy on the part of HLA's ability to teach kids healthy coping and living skills. Indoctrination and peer-based group confrontational methods are never a substitute for genuine and mutually respectful therapy.

Did I draw a dotted line and say HLA is the cause? NO. More spin and obfuscation by extrapolating to extremes on your part, Whooter. I will say, however, that it looks like HLA did not help, and may have contributed to the likelihood of something like this happening. There have been too many cases like this for there not to be a connection.

As to your attempt to draw the issue of suicide into your whitewash? Please. You can kiss my hairy bear-suited butt. I know of at least one suicide attempt that was directly and causally related to program experiences and there are several others that fit a pattern too closely to be strictly "coincidental." And, once again, we're talking about approximately 1-6 years post-program in a typical case, not years and years later, although I certainly wouldn't rule that out in certain cases.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 10:16:05 AM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Maybe the kid is a borderline sociopath and would have killed people in his class in highschool but HLA helped him to handle his rage better and after the program he slowly resorted back to his old ways.  Maybe this kid started taking drugs or alcohol.  Maybe he stopped taking medication which would have kept his rage under control.  There are so many different possibilities which are equally viable.

It is far more likely that HLA actually turned him into a sociopath, as that is the best type of person to be if you want to be successful in one of those programs.  It is mentioned in the article that he was indeed using drugs and alcohol, wasn't HLA supposed to cure him of that?  Where did all of his rage come from, I wonder?
Excellent point!   :tup:
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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 10:18:32 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
It is mentioned in the article that he was indeed using drugs and alcohol, wasn't HLA supposed to cure him of that?

I don’t think any of us know why he entered HLA.  Maybe he was there for abuse issues and they are just now emerging.  I don’t think anyone believes that programs cure anything especial drugs and alcohol.

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the parents of most of these kids believe, because that is what the programs told them.

  Many of these programs are designed to get the kid back on track, build up their self esteem and strengthen family ties.  

Then why do they consistently accomplish the opposite of this?

Taylor may have been at HLA to help him with his academic issues, who knows.

Quote
What is outside their boundaries? Their "treatment" effects the kid for his whole life. You know as well as I do Whooter that one of the hallmarks of these places is a kind of dissociative amnesia. The brain protects itself by "forgetting" extremely traumatic events, but it is usually only temporary. Often the person will have vivid flashbacks and nightmares that might not even start until they have been out of the program for 10 or 20 years.

If something extremely traumatic occurs while they are in the program then I would agree.

The programs themselves are extremely traumatic.

  But again the program is designed to get the kids back on track.

No, I don't think they are.  They are designed to make the parents feel "right" about the subjugation of their own children.  

  The kids are not traumatized.

What!?!  Have you asked any of them?

 After they get out they can choose to go back to their old way of life if they want but many chose not to because they were shown that they have control of their future and can be successful if they choose to.  If they want to go back and sit in their bedroom and do drugs the rest of their life then that is their choice.  The school cannot be blamed for that.
...


Old way of life?  At 15 I did not have a "way of life".  My "way of life" was trying to cope with the obstacles my parents kept putting in my path (divorce, relocation, etc...).
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Pbfffttt !!
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 10:25:11 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Did I draw a dotted line and say HLA is the cause? NO. More spin and obfuscation by extrapolating to extremes on your part, Whooter. I will say, however, that it looks like HLA did not help, and may have contributed to the likelihood of something like this happening. There have been too many cases like this for there not to be a connection.

Most of what you wrote is spin yourself, Ursus.  So you admit that we cannot tie Taylors events back to HLA.  They may have contributed they may not have. We agree here.

You go on to say that you feel that HLA did not help him.  But we wouldn’t know if HLA helped him or not unless we knew what he entered HLA for.  He may have entered because of academic issues.  He may have been abused as a child and HLA wasn’t 100 % effective in helping him.

So I think we can agree HLA along with all the events in Taylors life had an effect on him either positively or negatively but not one single event can be isolated to say that it caused him to kill this girl.



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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: Pbfffttt !!
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 10:32:07 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

So I think we can agree HLA along with all the events in Taylors life had an effect on him either positively or negatively but not one single event can be isolated to say that it caused him to kill this girl.

...

One thing is obvious, the treatment he received at HLA did not stop him from committing murder, and may indeed have contributed to his emotional instability.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Pbfffttt !!
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 10:54:40 AM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"

So I think we can agree HLA along with all the events in Taylors life had an effect on him either positively or negatively but not one single event can be isolated to say that it caused him to kill this girl.

...

One thing is obvious, the treatment he received at HLA did not stop him from committing murder, and may indeed have contributed to his emotional instability.

I can agree with this, Shady, I dont think there is any program or treatment which could guarantee that the person would never murder anyone.  HLA may have contributed to this emotional stability or it may not have.  I dont think we will ever know.  He may have been suffering with mental issues for awhile or had just started or stopped some medication.



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Offline Ursus

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 10:56:16 AM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
It is mentioned in the article that he was indeed using drugs and alcohol, wasn't HLA supposed to cure him of that?
I don’t think any of us know why he entered HLA.  Maybe he was there for abuse issues and they are just now emerging.  I don’t think anyone believes that programs cure anything especial drugs and alcohol.
Actually, that is EXACTLY what the parents of most of these kids believe, because that is what the programs told them.
More program lies!

Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Many of these programs are designed to get the kid back on track, build up their self esteem and strengthen family ties.
Then why do they consistently accomplish the opposite of this?
Yep. I was gonna say: Funny that you should mention that, Whooter, since these areas are precisely what many folks accuse them of destroying. Why is that?

Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
What is outside their boundaries? Their "treatment" effects the kid for his whole life. You know as well as I do Whooter that one of the hallmarks of these places is a kind of dissociative amnesia. The brain protects itself by "forgetting" extremely traumatic events, but it is usually only temporary. Often the person will have vivid flashbacks and nightmares that might not even start until they have been out of the program for 10 or 20 years.
If something extremely traumatic occurs while they are in the program then I would agree.
The programs themselves are extremely traumatic.
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But again the program is designed to get the kids back on track.
No, I don't think they are.  They are designed to make the parents feel "right" about the subjugation of their own children.
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
The kids are not traumatized.
What!?!  Have you asked any of them?
Whooter has, in the past, repeatedly likened the behavior modification used in programs (i.e., thought reform) to the behavior modification used in toilet training. Although I can't really speak for him, it appears that Whooter does not believe that program BM (thought reform) is wrong, or inherently psychologically invasive, or potentially damaging in and of itself.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Taylor Hurst
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 11:15:27 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Yep. I was gonna say: Funny that you should mention that, Whooter, since these areas are precisely what many folks accuse them of destroying. Why is that?

You may feel this way because many here on fornits are distant from their families.  I have seen the process and the results and they work towards bringing families together.  Some kids may choose to not work in this area and stay distant from their families.  Programs will not work unless the child puts in some effort.

Quote
Whooter has, in the past, repeatedly likened the behavior modification used in programs (i.e., thought reform) to the behavior modification used in toilet training. Although I can't really speak for him, it appears that Whooter does not believe that program BM (thought reform) is wrong, or inherently psychologically invasive, or potentially damaging in and of itself.

I don’t think you could find many professionals at all which would say that Behavior Modification is damaging.

Toilet training is Behavior Modification.  It can be abusive if you beat the kid or it can be gentile depending on how you choose to implement it.  Learning to put clothes on before leaving the house is behavior modification.  There is nothing inherently bad about this.



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