Author Topic: American History -  (Read 3688 times)

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Offline BuzzKill

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American History -
« on: October 24, 2010, 11:23:46 AM »
WARNING!  
Christian conservitive biased source follows ;-)

The American constitutional system was the first government devised by Man that was based upon biblical principles.

Its cornerstone was a belief in the evil nature of Man, which produced a conviction that no person can be trusted with power. This belief that Man's nature is corrupted and irreparable (apart from the power of the Holy Spirit) represented a radical departure from history. Until that time, most of Mankind had always been ruled by kings who were considered to have a divine right to rule and who usually ended up ruling like they thought they were gods.

A Biblical Example
I am reminded of the children of Israel when they arrived in the Promised Land under the leadership of Joshua. The Lord God Almighty served as their king. He protected them and blessed them with freedom and prosperity. When they took their eyes off Him and rebelled, He would allow foreign nations to conquer them. When they repented, He would raise up leaders, called judges, who would deliver them from foreign domination.

This unique form of supernatural rule continued for 400 years until the people rose up in rebellion during the judgeship of Samuel and demanded an earthly king so that they would be "like all the other nations" (1 Samuel 8:5, 20). Samuel tried to warn them that an earthly king would abuse his power and make their lives miserable by sending their sons into war, exploiting their daughters, confiscating their fields, and imposing heavy taxation (1 Samuel 8:10-18). But they would not listen, and they got what they asked for — a long history of abusive kings.

A Unique Form of Government
The American colonists rebelled against such a king, and they had no intention of replacing the British monarch with an American one. What is amazing is that they did not proceed to establish an oligarchical form of government since most of the leaders of the American Revolution were wealthy aristocrats.

But the vast majority of them were also devout Christians, and they were fully aware of the biblical teaching about the fallen nature of Man (Jeremiah 17:5,7,9):

5) Thus says the Lord, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind...
7) "Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord...
9) "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick..."
Accordingly, our Founding Fathers did not trust anyone with power — not even themselves. They therefore proceeded to construct a government that would limit the use of power.


Equally important was their conviction that the Word of God constitutes a higher law to which all men and governments are subject and that the fundamental rights of Mankind are derived from that law and not from government. Thus, in the nation's Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

To put it another way, the Founding Fathers of our nation expressly rejected the traditional philosophy of Humanism and its concept that Man is basically good and capable of perfection and that therefore those who are highly educated have a natural right to rule over those less fortunate. They also rejected the radical form of Humanism that came to prevail in the French Revolution and which produced a reign of terror — namely, a belief in the essential goodness of the common man.



If you wish to read more:

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_usa8.php
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Offline Antigen

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Re: American History -
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2010, 11:31:16 AM »
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline BuzzKill

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Re: American History -
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 11:35:36 AM »
Shame on "us" for lying to the muslims like that.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: American History -
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2010, 11:54:46 AM »
Well without getting too heavily engrossed in those documents, I guess we can surmise that since our FF (founding fathers) were of Christian faith it is only natural that the U.S. can be considered a Christian nation, in some respect? This does not seem like much of a stretch to me...pretty simple, really...

I think today's "left" likes to harp on the Crusades and any other ugly side of Christianity it can drag out of the closet in effort to denigrate it. Exactly why they so readily play into this bullshit is what I'm still trying to figure out...Christianity was never intended to be any of those things by Jesus Christ. It is Christ's disciples, and the descendants and 'hangers-on' that mucked things up in the long run. Jesus would puke if he saw how an originally good message was twisted and exploited over the years.

That incident in Dearborn, MI is disturbing. All those Christians were doing was attempting to spread part of the New Testament to some Muslim folks, and they got run off for it. I didn't see any "pot-stirring" going on there... it seems like the "left" (self-proclaimed Democrats) is biased against Christianity to say the least.
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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: American History -
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 12:26:18 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Well without getting too heavily engrossed in those documents, I guess we can surmise that since our FF (founding fathers) were of Christian faith it is only natural that the U.S. can be considered a Christian nation, in some respect? This does not seem like much of a stretch to me...pretty simple, really...

I think today's "left" likes to harp on the Crusades and any other ugly side of Christianity it can drag out of the closet in effort to denigrate it. Exactly why they so readily play into this bullshit is what I'm still trying to figure out...Christianity was never intended to be any of those things by Jesus Christ. It is Christ's disciples, and the descendants and 'hangers-on' that mucked things up in the long run. Jesus would puke if he saw how an originally good message was twisted and exploited over the years.

That incident in Dearborn, MI is disturbing. All those Christians were doing was attempting to spread part of the New Testament to some Muslim folks, and they got run off for it. I didn't see any "pot-stirring" going on there... it seems like the "left" (self-proclaimed Democrats) is biased against Christianity to say the least.

The crusades, the inquisition, the sword-point conversions of thousands and thousands of Northern European pagans and the murders of those who would not convert.  The systematic subjugation of women, widespread sexual abuse of children, shameless graft and fraud.  I wonder how any educated person could not be biased against an institution guilty of so many transgressions against humanity.  Of course I am biased, the program I was in when I was fifteen was run by "Christians".
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Offline Froderik

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Re: American History -
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 12:33:25 PM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
The crusades, the inquisition, the sword-point conversions of thousands and thousands of Northern European pagans and the murders of those who would not convert.  The systematic subjugation of women, widespread sexual abuse of children, shameless graft and fraud.  I wonder how any educated person could not be biased against an institution guilty of so many transgressions against humanity.  Of course I am biased, the program I was in when I was fifteen was run by "Christians".

I was getting ready to say that all of that was history (in other words, let's not dismiss a good thing over these rotten apples), until you got to the part about the program you were in being run by a bunch of corrupt, so-called Christians. Given that, it is easy to understand your present animosity. That is perhaps too close to home to deal with....but I hope you will consider that Jesus would not have agreed with that bullshit they forced on you; that wasn't the way it was meant to be. This a case in point of people using the Word to facilitate thier own fucked-up agenda.
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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: American History -
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 12:43:42 PM »
Witch burnings, persecution of homosexuals, persecution of jews, contributing to the population problem by prohibiting birth control, contributing to the general ignorance of mankind by perpetuating an outdated fairy tale.  The list goes on and on, why do Christians always line up with the fascist element in our society?  Who would Jesus persecute?  Who would Jesus bomb?
Most of these things are history but they serve to illustrate how easy it is for unscrupulous people to twist the holy scripture of ANY religion to justify their own selfish agenda.  Religions emerged as a way for mankind to explain the unexplainable, a hypothesis of sorts.  Now that hypothesis has largely been proven wrong and we have invented science to take over where religion left off.  Religions today are just a tool for con artists.
I also don't believe that the founding fathers saw all mankind as "inherently evil", but they may have seen "power" that way; power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: American History -
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2010, 12:54:41 PM »
It sounds like you and I are, for the most part, on the same page about all of this...

Anyway, this quote from an article concerning science and religion may be of interest to you:

Fortunately, science and religion need no longer be at war, as developments in modern physics have shown, (especially those relating to the significance of the fundamental constants), which may indicate that the time for hostilities may finally be over. It is interesting to note that the "multiple universes" concept which has inspired so many short stories in the past decade is a purely hypothetical theory developed without any experimental basis in an attempt to answer the "anthropic principle," which not only has a solid foundation in current scientific method, but threatens to demolish the entire notion of a random, mechanistic universe. The concept does not, of course, provide the least bit of evidence for the legitimacy of the prophet's revelation, the infallibility of the pope, or the likelihood of the Second Coming. What it does demonstrate is that what has been long considered an antagonistic dichotomy between science and religion may not actually exist at all.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=33609
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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: American History -
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 01:21:52 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
It sounds like you and I are, for the most part, on the same page about all of this...

Anyway, this quote from an article concerning science and religion may be of interest to you:

Fortunately, science and religion need no longer be at war, as developments in modern physics have shown, (especially those relating to the significance of the fundamental constants), which may indicate that the time for hostilities may finally be over. It is interesting to note that the "multiple universes" concept which has inspired so many short stories in the past decade is a purely hypothetical theory developed without any experimental basis in an attempt to answer the "anthropic principle," which not only has a solid foundation in current scientific method, but threatens to demolish the entire notion of a random, mechanistic universe. The concept does not, of course, provide the least bit of evidence for the legitimacy of the prophet's revelation, the infallibility of the pope, or the likelihood of the Second Coming. What it does demonstrate is that what has been long considered an antagonistic dichotomy between science and religion may not actually exist at all.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=33609

Interesting article, Lewis and Tolkien are two of my favorite authors, Twain too.  I have no problem with the underlying theme of Christianity, I just don't see many Christians adhering to it.  I also think that most religious texts, our Old and New Testaments included, are valuable resources for mankind, I just think they should be more of a guide book than a law book.  The society of man is constantly changing and our laws and customs must change with it.
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Offline Stonewall

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Re: American History -
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2010, 03:27:38 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"


If you look into the Treaty of Tripoli... you would find the same trouble we are in today.

The Constitution, when reading it, it becomes very clear what were the religious beliefs of those who wrote it. Without a doubt Christians wrote that document.

That is not to say that they wanted a theocracy. They did not.

When adopted, there were States that had official religions. Thus making a non-denominational National Government was a must. And, nothing prohibited a State having an official State religion. The so-called 'Bil of Rights' at their adoption did not apply to the States. That is new in our nations history, the 20th Century. The 'incorporation theory'. I disagree with it. Only because the people should have been the ones who decided that issue. The Courts do not rule America. The people do, or used to anyway.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: American History -
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2010, 10:08:30 AM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Witch burnings, persecution of homosexuals, persecution of jews, contributing to the population problem by prohibiting birth control, contributing to the general ignorance of mankind by perpetuating an outdated fairy tale.  The list goes on and on, why do Christians always line up with the fascist element in our society?  Who would Jesus persecute?  Who would Jesus bomb?
Most of these things are history but they serve to illustrate how easy it is for unscrupulous people to twist the holy scripture of ANY religion to justify their own selfish agenda.  Religions emerged as a way for mankind to explain the unexplainable, a hypothesis of sorts.  Now that hypothesis has largely been proven wrong and we have invented science to take over where religion left off.  Religions today are just a tool for con artists.
I also don't believe that the founding fathers saw all mankind as "inherently evil", but they may have seen "power" that way; power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 :notworthy:

That's pretty much exactly what I've been trying (and apparently failing) to say.
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traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: American History -
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2010, 11:29:11 AM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Well without getting too heavily engrossed in those documents, I guess we can surmise that since our FF (founding fathers) were of Christian faith it is only natural that the U.S. can be considered a Christian nation, in some respect? This does not seem like much of a stretch to me...pretty simple, really...

Saying that we're not a Christian nation doesn't mean that the FF weren't Christians (although I believe most were deists).  They realized the inherent dangers in basing a government on ANY religion.

Quote
I think today's "left" likes to harp on the Crusades and any other ugly side of Christianity it can drag out of the closet in effort to denigrate it.


When I bring it up it's to illustrate that ALL religions can be bastardized and horrible things done in their name.  

Quote
Jesus would puke if he saw how an originally good message was twisted and exploited over the years.

Totally agreed.  My opinion is that he was a hippy kind of guy who looked around him and wanted to make the world he was living in a little better. He would be flipping out at some of the things done in His name.

Quote
That incident in Dearborn, MI is disturbing. All those Christians were doing was attempting to spread part of the New Testament to some Muslim folks, and they got run off for it. I didn't see any "pot-stirring" going on there...

I sure did.  It's also part of why I have a problem with religion at all.  It just seems to breed mistrust, hate and an argument of "my god is better than your god"  or "my god is the real god".  Why did the Christians feel they needed to spread anything?  Why couldn't they let people worship they way they wanted to instead of how the Christians think they should?

Quote
it seems like the "left" (self-proclaimed Democrats) is biased against Christianity to say the least.

I renounced my Dem status a few years ago, but my problem with it is what I just said above.  Why can't they just let people be?  Why do they push it on people?  I'm perfectly content with my life and how I live it.  I don't need the Bible to tell me what's moral and what's not and I do resent when the Jehovah Nitwits or some Christian group comes knocking on my door to "save" me.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: American History -
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2010, 11:39:57 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I sure did. It's also part of why I have a problem with religion at all. It just seems to breed mistrust, hate and an argument of "my god is better than your god" or "my god is the real god". Why did the Christians feel they needed to spread anything? Why couldn't they let people worship they way they wanted to instead of how the Christians think they should?

You consider handing out Bible quotes outside of the Muslim gathering to be 'stirring the pot'? So, I guess they shouldn't attempt to do this at all, then? They should be run off by the cops? I think you agree with me there, at least (that's what I'm really trying to get at, not so much whether or not they were stirring the pot...that's secondary to what I'm addressing here; I don't think they were, but w/e.) The fact that COPS were brought in to the situation is what's chapping my ass about this; it's fucking bullshit.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: American History -
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2010, 11:46:53 AM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I sure did. It's also part of why I have a problem with religion at all. It just seems to breed mistrust, hate and an argument of "my god is better than your god" or "my god is the real god". Why did the Christians feel they needed to spread anything? Why couldn't they let people worship they way they wanted to instead of how the Christians think they should?

You consider handing out Bible quotes outside of the Muslim gathering to be 'stirring the pot'?

Yup, I sure do.

Quote
So, I guess they shouldn't attempt to do this at all, then?

I question their motives.

Quote
They should be run off by the cops?  I think you agree with me there, at least (that's what I'm really trying to get at, not so much whether or not they were stirring the pot...that's secondary to what I'm addressing here; I don't think they were, but w/e.) The fact that COPS were brought in to the situation is what's chapping my ass about this; it's fucking bullshit.

Yes, I agree with you on that part.   I don't think they should have been run off by the cops.  That being said, the intent may be secondary to you, but it's not to me.  Why can't they just let people worship how they want, or not at all?  I'm sick of people trying to "save" me, or anyone else for that matter.  I had enough of it in Straight, I don't need it out in the real world.
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traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Froderik

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Re: American History -
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2010, 11:58:54 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I sure did. It's also part of why I have a problem with religion at all. It just seems to breed mistrust, hate and an argument of "my god is better than your god" or "my god is the real god". Why did the Christians feel they needed to spread anything? Why couldn't they let people worship they way they wanted to instead of how the Christians think they should?

You consider handing out Bible quotes outside of the Muslim gathering to be 'stirring the pot'?

Yup, I sure do.

Quote
So, I guess they shouldn't attempt to do this at all, then?

I question their motives.

Quote
They should be run off by the cops?  I think you agree with me there, at least (that's what I'm really trying to get at, not so much whether or not they were stirring the pot...that's secondary to what I'm addressing here; I don't think they were, but w/e.) The fact that COPS were brought in to the situation is what's chapping my ass about this; it's fucking bullshit.

Yes, I agree with you on that part.   I don't think they should have been run off by the cops.  That being said, the intent may be secondary to you, but it's not to me.  Why can't they just let people worship how they want, or not at all?  I'm sick of people trying to "save" me, or anyone else for that matter.  I had enough of it in Straight, I don't need it out in the real world.

You hand out literature about the dangers of AA outside of AA meetings, or at least advocate this, is this not true? Nothing wrong with that, right? I don't think so, either. By the same token, is there anything wrong with what those Christians were doing on the street in Dearborn? Maybe they feel that Islam is violent and a bunch of shit, or maybe they just wanted to spread the Word... in any case, what they were doing isn't that different from that, is it?
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