On 2003-10-19 14:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger:
I am glad you recognize that that post is problematic to say the least, it is okay if you aren't ready to say sorry.
So now take it down.
No, you still don't seem to be taking my meaning. I don't have a problem with it. And I'm quite ready to say that I am
not sorry. I didn't say those things that offended you. Some guy who goes by the name Nazi did. That might have been a big tip-off as to what might follow. Maybe he's sorry. But I'm not him, nor am I his mother. You're barking up the wrong tree here.
No matter how hard you want to believe that I'm somehow responsible for what other people do and say, I am not. Read the terms of use.
As I've said before in similar situations, go panhandle somewhere else. I don't work for you. I don't owe you anything. Call me when the server crashes or something. That's my area of responsibility.
And you are going to rebuke me by saying it goes against free speech.
Once again, I'm not your mother either and so I wouldn't dream of rebuking you for anything. I would remind you, though, that you don't know me well enough to know what I might or might not find offensive. If you think you want me to go around deciding for others what they should be allowed to read or write through this open, unmoderated forum, are you absolutely sure I'd never take offense at anything you had to say?
Here's the funny part, Anon. Amost anyone you ask would agree that all of the WWF forums on various Synanon based facilities are 'anti' program. As you well know, I don't make any attempt whatsoever to control anything anyone says. I only engage in discussion and debate on an equal par with anyone else who voluntarily engages in it. If the consensus around here tends to run against the program, it's not that anyone is controling the discourse and making it so. It just is what it is, unvarnished, unmanipulated, no punches pulled.
If you take a look at the consensus on Nazi, I'm pretty sure damned near everyone agrees with you.
The really funny part of that whole back-and-forth was when the Elan apologists, after spending months condemning that kind of behavior as childish and deranged actually started logging in as various users and posting just exactly the same quality of crap about Paul. :roll:
I think you just don't understand how freedom works. If you want to have it you have to grant it to others. As regards freedom of speech, it necessarily covers offensive speech. Why would anyone think to make a law to protect behavior that no one found particularly offensive?
But, what about the black, asian, or latino person who has been in one of these programs and wants to join the forum. What if they stumble upon a post where this guy is calling people niggers and to add insult to injury a senior memeber of the forum condones and ignores the statement when it is blasted by another post?
First, there are no senior or junior members around here. I don't claim any authority to condone or condemn anyone for anything, except hacking, flooding and spamming.
As for various people who might take offense at various ideas, well look around! I don't think there's a single post in this whole forum that wouldn't offend someone or other. That's Ken's gig over at Elanalum and Lon Woodburry's job at teenhelp.com. There is no place for that kind of behavior around here. That's how come we are able to have actual, meaningful debate about these programs.
Rather than trying to get me, the FBI, the ADL and whoever else you think you can sic on the guy like your trained guard dogs, why not ask the guy how he reconciles his vaunted ideology with opposition to Ricci's little totalist regime? Did you know that Ricci and Barker were both fascinated w/ Hitler Jugund?
Are you really so threatened by these ideas that you can't challenge them in any way but to envoke force? C'mon now! In a battle of wits, I think this guy is definitely bringing a knife to a gun fight. You can ignore him. You can challenge him. But you can't make me censor him.
What about their right to feel free to speak in a safe enviroment? Or it is only safe for white people like nazi et al.
Do you really feel unsafe posting here? I don't buy it. I think you're just pissed off. And I think you've misunderstood your rights in a profound way. You do not have a right to force me to erradicate from the world every idea that offends you.
Not long ago, you or someone who writes alot like you do, told me that you thought all Nazis should be rounded up and sent to concentration camps. In my view, that is both a frightening prospect to some young kid who's just following what his right wing family taught him and also something you have every right to say. Should I censor you so that right wing extremists will "feel safe" posting here? Or am I only supposed to censor people who offend you? Or am I supposed to ignore you and censor people who offend me? Should I ban Ken Zaretski from these forums? He damned sure offends me. Or should I just flip a coin?
What if oprah .... interested in doing a program, and see such inflammatory stuff.
I'm guessing you don't actually watch any of the programs you just mention. Every one, down to the last, has done shows promoting these boot camps and behavior mod schools.
Your words about crackpots, being facetious or not, and SAMMIE's good heart and honest oversight of the word nigger($10 word there!) will matter little if at all. Because you as a whole are only as tight as you aren't loose. If you think that is not possible you are selling yourselves short.
It's not that I think it's not possible. Just that I think it's probably not desirable. See, it's no coincidence, to my mind, that people who believe steadfastly in rulling the media with a politically correct iron fist would so entheusiastically advocate these totalist programs. They practice and advocate essentially the same policies and methods, only with a slightly different rhetoric.
Ever see Maurey hook a 14yo little girl up to a lie detector in front of a live studio audience and then grill her on her sex life? I wonder if he or any of the audience knows that merely being
asked under those conditions about having had sex with some 35 yo man will make the silly machine indicate "deception". Aside from that stage prop, it damned sure looked to me like what I saw happen so many times in group.
And Ginger not to be rude but nobody really honestly cares about what you fall for or not I am more interested in how you ignore it and don't want to talk about it.
When have I ever declined to talk about this? I've spent hours already going back and forth with you and others, publicly and in private messages. I've gone over the allegedly frightening and intimidating posts, only to find that it's all just the huge stinking pile of obscene, offensive, juvenile locker-room humor that I thought it was to begin with. Each and every time, we come to the same conclusion. It's just not the one you wanted or expected.
You blast these people who ran these camps for being self-rightous and unapologetic surely you don't want to emulate these qualities. Just think about it."
You think about it. In the program, we were not allowed to say or hear anything unapproved by staff. If someone tried to say something staff found offensive, we were well conditioned to attack like trained dogs. This had the effect of creating the illusion that dissenting views simply didn't exist. That's just what you're doing here, only I'm not playing that game.
Once again, if you don't like what Nazi has to say, do as I do, don't waste your time reading the crap! Why would you let this guy yank your chain like this? Why do you keep making it fun and interesting for him? And what in the world gives you the idea that I'm going to spend my time monitoring each and every post to this whole forum just to make sure nothing in it offends your tender sensibilities?
I'm really done with this. Unless something happens which has not happened time and time again around here, please don't start this conversation with me again. If you do, I'll very likely just refer you back to this post.
A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
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Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
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