Can people be forced to change?

[Anne Bonney]

Moral choice is necessary to humanity.

 :tup:

And.......?

Well, aren't you "pushy" today. I don't have anything to say at this time. Just liked Frodie's post and also like your thread. I'll post later.

I wasn't trying to be pushy.....just trying to understand what you're trying to say.

[Son Of Serbia]

This is a great topic.  My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing.   You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to.  Change must be completely voluntary, period!  

Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it.  At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do.  Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question.  It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.

[Whooter]

This is a great topic.  My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing.   You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to.  Change must be completely voluntary, period!  

Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it.  At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do.  Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question.  It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.

I think it is possible to force the change and then reinforce it after the fact.  They may or may not take to it.  but it can be effective.

Like if a kid doesnt want to go to school.  If he is forced to go via a program placement then while he/she is in class they may find that learning is not so bad and that they are smarter than they thought or find an interest in reading.  With children you need to insist on them changing and doing things a certain way.  Its part of the learning process and living in society.

The child could be forced to join a sport and then find out that they like it.

The child could be forced to go to therapy and then find their therapist is helpful.

etc.
etc.



...

[Anne Bonney]

This is a great topic.  My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing.   You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to.  Change must be completely voluntary, period!  

Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it.  At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do.  Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question.  It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.

I think it is possible to force the change and then reinforce it after the fact.  They may or may not take to it.  but it can be effective.

Like if a kid doesnt want to go to school.  If he is forced to go via a program placement then while he/she is in class they may find that learning is not so bad and that they are smarter than they thought or find an interest in reading.  With children you need to insist on them changing and doing things a certain way.  Its part of the learning process and living in society.

The child could be forced to join a sport and then find out that they like it.

The child could be forced to go to therapy and then find their therapist is helpful.

Regular schools don't delve into the psyche of the kids.  The TTI does, especially the ones using LGAT-type methods, which is mostly what is used in the TTI.  Big difference.

[Anne Bonney]

This is a great topic.  My answer to this question is NO - you can't force people to change.
It's possible to force compliance, but that's not the same thing as changing.   You can't force someone to change, especially if they don't want to.  Change must be completely voluntary, period!  

Speaking from my own personal experience, trying to force another person to change
(when they don't want to) will only reinforce their resistance to it.  At best you can lay out the facts, weigh out the pros and cons, & do your best to explain your case to another person why changing would benefit them. That's all you can do.  Ultimately, the decision of whether to change or not to change belongs to the individual in question.  It's their choice to make, and their choice alone.

 :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:

Like I said, even AA says that it won't "work" unless the person wants to change.

[Whooter]

Regular schools don't delve into the psyche of the kids.  The TTI does, especially the ones using LGAT-type methods, which is mostly what is used in the TTI.  Big difference.

It may be true, but back on topic just to finish up, I think in most cases a childs behavior can be changed via force and then have them embrace the change after the fact.  Like the examples I cited above.

As you pointed out, Anne, the methods used can vary from benign to abusive depending on the program.  I think if a child is abused into changing then the change would not be permanent.  The child may in fact want to go back to the previous "Bad" behavior because of the methods used to instill the change and the work may backfire on them.

This is a good discussion......



...

[Anne Bonney]

It may be true, but back on topic just to finish up, I think in most cases a childs behavior can be changed via force and then have them embrace the change after the fact.  Like the examples I cited above.

As you pointed out, Anne, the methods used can vary from benign to abusive depending on the program.  I think if a child is abused into changing then the change would not be permanent.  The child may in fact want to go back to the previous "Bad" behavior because of the methods used to instill the change and the work may backfire on them.

This is a good discussion......

Of all the programs we've discussed here, I can't think of one that doesn't use some form of LGATs.  If I'm mistaken, please correct me and post the programs that don't use it.

[Whooter]

It may be true, but back on topic just to finish up, I think in most cases a childs behavior can be changed via force and then have them embrace the change after the fact.  Like the examples I cited above.

As you pointed out, Anne, the methods used can vary from benign to abusive depending on the program.  I think if a child is abused into changing then the change would not be permanent.  The child may in fact want to go back to the previous "Bad" behavior because of the methods used to instill the change and the work may backfire on them.

This is a good discussion......

Of all the programs we've discussed here, I can't think of one that doesn't use some form of LGATs.  If I'm mistaken, please correct me and post the programs that don't use it.

 

I really dont know the inner methods used in each program.  But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's.  They can vary from very benign to very intense.  So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.



...

[Anne Bonney]

I really dont know the inner methods used in each program.  But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's.  They can vary from very benign to very intense.  So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.

The whole purpose of LGATs is to break the person down, in order to build them up.  That may be fine for an adult that can consent to it, but to force a child who already has issues is extremely harmful, IMO.

Can we leave it at that or do you have to have the last word?

[reformed12stepper]

there is something creepy about trying to change the essence of who someone is. A lot of places appear to talk about giving parents their old child back like they are returning them to pre adolescence. To me that is just wierd. Like deliberately giving your kid a head injury so they will always have a mental age of 12. legitimate rehab does not do this. i am the same person who made the choice to take drugs but i am now making better choices. None of these things were forced upon me. I have the same personality. I am not the spiritual type but one of the few ideas i think a religious upbringing got correct was the idea that we are all unique. So anne i can see what you are saying, maybe it is not even possible but i guess from my pov it doesnt matter whether you can do it it matters more whether it is OK to even try.
Whooter one of the schools  you recommend has a history of treating kids pretty awfully. As late as 2003 it was calling girls whores, monitoring phone calls and dismissing suicide attempts as attention getting.

[DannyB II]

I really dont know the inner methods used in each program.  But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's.  They can vary from very benign to very intense.  So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.

The whole purpose of LGATs is to break the person down, in order to build them up.  That may be fine for an adult that can consent to it, but to force a child who already has issues is extremely harmful, IMO.

Can we leave it at that or do you have to have the last word?

Can I have the last word, please. OK.....Boo on forcing kids to change. Everything has already been covered. Great thread Anne.

[Anne Bonney]

I really dont know the inner methods used in each program.  But I can say that I would not condemn a program for using LGAT's.  They can vary from very benign to very intense.  So we would have to take a look at what they subject the students to before we could determine how harsh they are and begin a process of determining if they are abusive or not.

The whole purpose of LGATs is to break the person down, in order to build them up.  That may be fine for an adult that can consent to it, but to force a child who already has issues is extremely harmful, IMO.

Can we leave it at that or do you have to have the last word?

Can I have the last word, please. OK.....Boo on forcing kids to change. Everything has already been covered. Great thread Anne.

     

[Son Of Serbia]

I'd like to have the last word here - even if it is a bit off topic.

Anne, I just wanted to commend you for the maturity and restraint you've shown in
responding to the taunts of this immature, programmed, fucking whack-job, internet
tuff guy, DannyB II.  It takes a lot more patience than people realize.

And yes this is indeed a great thread! Thanks Anne.

[Whooter]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.



...

[Froderik]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.

...but, most importantly, it is not advisable to force change upon people.