Can people be forced to change?

[Anne Bonney]

I came very close to dying a couple of times from drug overdose. I've been diagnosed as insane in the hospital before, and I have been in jail. So to some of us this cliche rings true. I can't speak for other people or judge whether they should have been sent to a program or not, for all I know I am the only kid in the universe who really needed to be in the program. But the truth is, I did need it, and without it I would have continued with these behaviors and ended up not insane or in jail, but dead. That's because when you go insane or go to jail, eventually you get out. When I get out I go back to using drugs with a voracious appetite, one that would suggest I don't really value my own life at all. Perhaps that's true, I can't really say and sometimes I do wonder about it, but I believe there is something inside me, something dark, that has never completely disappeared. This darkness prompts me to self destruct, at a rapid pace, and when I get in that state it usually takes an outside force to save me from myself.

So for me it's not a matter of low expectations, it's accepting the inevitable. My most important priority is maintaining some kind of control over this darkness and preventing myself from falling down that rabbit hole once again. I've done fairly well at just that for the past couple of years, and part of that was accepting who I am, and to do that requires an honest examination of myself, despite the depressing conclusions I sometimes reach.  I used to blame the program, and my parents, and whatever else I could to prevent me from having to realize that I was the cause of most of my own problems. I realized it's not the part of me that wants to succeed that causes problems, it's that darkness deep inside that wants nothing but to destroy it's host, like a cancer. When times are good this darkness goes into remission, but it can come like an overwhelming tidal wave, when it's least expected. So to me it's not about low expectations so much as a warning of what could have been, and what might be, if I do lose control again and the darkness takes control over me.

Do you think that forced/coerced 'therapy' helps?

[reformed12stepper]

I had a pretty rocky relationship with my parents as a teenager. Mistakes were made on both ends. I was far from perfect but I also felt a lot of pressure to be a son that I couldn't be. Once I turned 18 things changed. I can remember my dad saying that he might not approve of my choices but that I was a man and as a result he would butt out from now on. This really was a big turning point and in all honestly made me start behaving more like a man in a lot of ways. But nobody can control the behavior of someone else and any decisions I have made in life either good or bad have been my own.
 In the case of a fully grown adult who is behaving badly for whatever reason boundaries can be put in place and they can sometimes get results. A real turning point for me was when a sibling said that she could not trust me to babysit her kids because she did not know if I would be high or not. This was devastating and really got me thinking about how much i had let things slide. I have met some people whose loved ones took this idea to extremes and let them hit "rock bottom" by cutting off all contact. Most went through a period of being really fucked up for a while. Maybe their choices got them there but as a guy who is hardly a saint myself I still felt bad for them and grateful that my loved ones kept the door open.
I hear people saying that kids who did badly in therapeutic schools did so because they did not accept the help offered to them. maybe it is true and maybe it is not but it misses the point to me. Firstly if the aim is to get somebody to change and this aim is not met then it has failed. Secondly no one solution is the right fit for everyone. If a kid cant clearly articulate why this is the case in their case without somebody claiming they are manipulating or lying then of course they are destined to fail. Thirdly too much of anything cant be healthy. Even adults who see a therapist dont go to them every single day. Being in an environment that consists of continuous therapy unless you are severely mentally ill or detoxing from some heavy drugs is enough to make anyone crazy. Even a live in rehab program usually only lasts for up to six months tops. 18 months away from the real world possibly does force some level of change but i doubt it is for the better!!!!

[Froderik]

Idiotic question, really....

Read "A Clockwork Orange" for the answer to the question of moral choice.

Or watch the fucking movie.

[Anne Bonney]

Idiotic question, really....

Gee, thanks.  


I was trying to spark a conversation since some people seem to be in favor of forced therapy.  To me, it's an oxymoron but others feel differently and I was trying to find out what they think and why.

[Froderik]

Idiotic question, really....

Gee, thanks.  


I was trying to spark a conversation since some people seem to be in favor of forced therapy.  To me, it's an oxymoron but others feel differently and I was trying to find out what they think and why.

Hey, don't take that the wrong way..

An idiotic question? Yes...

Hell, you know it, and I know it...

Nonetheless, a question that should be answered!

[Anne Bonney]

Idiotic question, really....

Gee, thanks.  


I was trying to spark a conversation since some people seem to be in favor of forced therapy.  To me, it's an oxymoron but others feel differently and I was trying to find out what they think and why.

Hey, don't take that the wrong way..

An idiotic question? Yes...

Hell, you know it, and I know it...

Nonetheless, a question that should be answered!

Sorry......I'm in a very cranky mood today due to some of the changes around here and I took it the wrong way.  :flame:  

Say hello to the Missus!

[reformed12stepper]

maybe it is a question of should not can. Im sure that you can force someone to change in some circumstances. Maximillion claims this to be so. But I dont think  this is morally right any more than a dictatorship is morally right. Even when a kid is under 18 and the parent still has the right to enforce legitimate rules, they do not have the right to physically or emotionally abuse or imprison their children.

[Anne Bonney]

maybe it is a question of should not can. Im sure that you can force someone to change in some circumstances. Maximillion claims this to be so. But I dont think  this is morally right any more than a dictatorship is morally right. Even when a kid is under 18 and the parent still has the right to enforce legitimate rules, they do not have the right to physically or emotionally abuse or imprison their children.

Yeah, but even so.....forcing someone to change doesn't really work.  The kids 'change' out of fear, as Reformed said, and forced change doesn't last and very often damages the psyche.

[Whooter]

I believe forcing someone to change along with an explanation on why the change is occurring helps to facilitate and solidify the change.  You need to have both elements in my opinion.  For example if your child doesnt want to wear shoes to school you can tell him he has to.  Also wearing shoes protects his feet from cuts and its the rules in many public places.  He can call the rules stupid and throw a fit but you can just make the rule that he doesnt leave the house without shoes on.  Eventually he will grow accustomed to wearing shoes and he will just put them on automatically and the change will solidify.

I think forcing a child into therapy can also work.  The child may resist at first but a good therapist will show the child that therapy can be beneficial to him/her as she starts to resolve problems.



...

[Froderik]

Moral choice is necessary to humanity.

[Anne Bonney]

I believe forcing someone to change along with an explanation on why the change is occurring helps to facilitate and solidify the change.  You need to have both elements in my opinion.  For example if your child doesnt want to wear shoes to school you can tell him he has to.  Also wearing shoes protects his feet from cuts and its the rules in many public places.  He can call the rules stupid and throw a fit but you can just make the rule that he doesnt leave the house without shoes on.  Eventually he will grow accustomed to wearing shoes and he will just put them on automatically and the change will solidify.

We're not talking about shoes......we're talking about changing molding a kids psyche (another one of your strange analogies).  Big difference.  

I think forcing a child into therapy can also work.  The child may resist at first but a good therapist will show the child that therapy can be beneficial to him/her as she starts to resolve problems.

How so?  Even AA says that people can't change unless they want to change.  How is it different with kids?  Especially since the kids are attempting to find their own way in life and break away from their parents who seem to want to mold their kids into what the parents want them to be.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

[Whooter]

We're not talking about shoes......we're talking about changing molding a kids psyche (another one of your strange analogies).  Big difference.  

It is not any different substitute the word School for shoe.  If the program can get these kids to sit in a class room and start reading and learning many of them will begin to enjoy learning new things.  They may find a new interest and passion to follow.

How so?  Even AA says that people can't change unless they want to change.  How is it different with kids?  Especially since the kids are attempting to find their own way in life and break away from their parents who seem to want to mold their kids into what the parents want them to be.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

But if you do lead the horse to water they "may" drink.  That is the hope.
If you expose the child to therapy a good therapist can help the child to see the benefits to his meeting with him/her and eventually will trust the therapist and then want to work with her.  It doesnt happen with all the kids, as we know from reading here.  Some will reject the therapy, dig their heels in and learn nothing.  But like anything else with children, you can insist that they give it a try and let them see if they find a benefit in it.



...

[Froderik]

Moral choice is necessary to humanity.

:bump:

[Anne Bonney]

It is not any different substitute the word School for shoe.  If the program can get these kids to sit in a class room and start reading and learning many of them will begin to enjoy learning new things.  They may find a new interest and passion to follow.

Yes, there is a big difference.  Ill-fitting shoes will not damage the kids for life.

But if you do lead the horse to water they "may" drink.  That is the hope.
If you expose the child to therapy a good therapist can help the child to see the benefits to his meeting with him/her and eventually will trust the therapist and then want to work with her.  It doesnt happen with all the kids, as we know from reading here.  Some will reject the therapy, dig their heels in and learn nothing.  But like anything else with children, you can insist that they give it a try and let them see if they find a benefit in it.

And what if the kid feels that it's damaging to them?  What if they truly feel that it IS abuse (and that brings up the subject of having an abuse/patient rights hotline which the kids have zero access to) and it's hurting them?  Do you still insist that they participate?  Do the kids feelings not matter?

[Dr Fucktard]

And what if the kid feels that it's damaging to them?

Hah! As a professional in the troubled teen industry, I say tough shit if they feel like the treatment is damaging to them! Maybe they should have thought about that before they lit their first joint, or before they decided to stay out all night without calling home and worrying their poor parents sick!

Why should the parents worry about damaging the kid when the kid wouldn't give a second thought to the damage that their druggie behavior is causing the family? Parents need to be tough once in a while! Sometimes the end justifies the means.