Dead, insane, or in jail (general discussion)

[Samara]

With all due respect, you cannot attribute the idea that I think programs are a root of all survivors' ills. That is presumptuous, and reflects the kind of thinking you rail against when it is applied to you.

To be honest, I don't think you know exactly what I think of programs but one thing I do know is I'm not simplistic enough to pin every personal weakness on a program. That is just absurd.

All I'm saying is: I don't like abusive programs; I know they exist; I believe they have effects that range from the deleterious to the traumatic.  It can create, ignore, compound or exacerbate existing issues. That is what I'm saying.

I'm not saying its a get out of jail for free card, for Christ's sake.

[psy]

You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.

Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.

How was she supposed to be dead and why is it a miracle her kids weren't sent to programs?  You're doing just what many programs do, you're making the presumption that she needed a program, and attempts she makes to defend herself are seen as denial.  this is the sort of fatalistic bullshit that "dead insane in jail" is famous for.  It's a lie.

[Maximilian]

You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.

Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.

How was she supposed to be dead and why is it a miracle her kids weren't sent to programs?  You're doing just what many programs do, you're making the presumption that she needed a program, and attempts she makes to defend herself are seen as denial.  this is the sort of fatalistic bullshit that "dead insane in jail" is famous for.  It's a lie.

What if we all accepted that it's true for some kids, and might not be true for other kids. Because that is a fact. The real debate lies with how many kids fall into each category, not whether one group is exclusive of the other entirely.

[psy]

Sure some kids will die from heroin poisonings and so forth, but most won't.  Most teens who use, or even abuse, drugs, do not continue doing so later in life (which is not to imply all kids who are sent to program have even experimented with drugs.  Many I knew had not).

And the debate, as far as i'm concerned, has very little to do with how many kids fall into each category.  In my mind it's a rights based issue, as well as a practical one.  Sovereign individuals have the right to govern their own bodies and forcing people, regardless of age, into treatment, is almost always going to result in failure.  Even by the AA folk wisdom you claim to cherish, a person cannot be forced to deal with a problem.  They have to realize they have a problem and deal with it of their own volition.  Without the desire to quite it's just not going to work, and genuine, rational, long lasting desire is not something that can be forced.

[Anne Bonney]

You keep saying that & I keep reading current accounts of programs that are strikingly similar to how Straight operated.

Anne, please stop being stubborn. Try to accept others points of view.
Congrats, you were sopposed to be dead but not, grew up, raised two daughters that had nothing but problems and miraculously did not have to place them in some program.
I would say this has been a great life so far, keep it going.

First, only one daughter had problems.

Second, it is a great life but I only achieved that after I dropped the mindfuck that is programs/LGATs/AA.