What illegal drugs would you legalize?

[Maximilian]

You're moving the goalposts.  Getting sober does not equal AA.  People aren't going to die if they leave AA, even if the do have a problem. There are other options.

For many people getting sober does equal AA, or at least partly attributed to it. It's not a certainty people are going to die if they leave AA, but if they continue to use they might if they don't get help. Yes there are other options, most of which cost a lot of money, something not everybody has access to.

That....People aren't going to die if they leave AA, even if the do have a problem. That there are other options.  That AA is more a religion than a simple self help group.  That it often raises the binge drinking and death rate of alcoholics.

They might die, many people do die from alcoholism and drug overdoses every year. I would say AA is a spiritual self help group, they are open to people of any religions and there only goal is to help people get sober. They believe part of this involves spirituality, and things beyond ourselves like a Higher power, I think that's a positive aspect and something that traditional therapists or drug rehab tend to ignore.

I dismiss it because it tries to tell people that AA is the only way, i.e. the 12 & 12 saying that if they leave they "surely are signing their own death warrant".  That's not true and it's dangerous to convince people that it is.

I agree....AA completely smacks of religion.  So then, what becomes of the non-believers?  Just as religion isn't "the" answer for everyone, neither is AA despite the dire warnings of someone signing their own death warrant if they reject AA's path.

Think about this for a minute. How many kids die in programs every year? Two, three, ten? Compare that to the amount of people who die of alcoholism, and drug addiction. Fornits is filled to the brim with dire warnings about how your kid will be harmed or killed in a program, many tears are shed here for these kids, and rightfully so. So think about people who become friends with people who deal with addiction issues, how many of their friends have they seen kill themselves through alcohol or drug use? Tens of thousands of people die of these reasons every year, so the dire warnings, in my opinions are both justified and accurate. Your cause is saving young kids in programs, and offer the same type of warnings to parents, it's the same thing, the posters here of all people should understand this. Their cause is to help and save people from themselves and their addictions. If people don't feel AA helps them they don't need to go, it's that simple. But their doors are open for anybody who needs it. I think they are wonderful.

[Maximilian]

OK ok ok.  Sort of my fault but I think this thread has veered a bit off-topic.  If we're going to talk about AA or the disease concept, let's talk about it as it relates to drug prohibition.  A debate on whether AA works is something better suited to the Addiction Treatment Philosophies forum.

Fair enough, I'll try to keep it on topic. But to be honest, sending a discussion to the ATP forum seems to be the kiss of death, as far as discussion goes. Not many people are seeming to opt in to that forum.

[DannyB II]

This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help. You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.

Just because I don't believe alcoholism or addiction is a disease doesn't mean I wouldn't help somebody i cared about to deal with the temptation from their bad habits in any available way.  That being said, i'm not going to coddle them and lie and say that it's the alcohol's fault, or the drug's fault. I'm certainly not going to make the leap to saying that all drugs should be banned just because some people choose to use them irresponsibly.  Some people drive irresponsibly.  We don't ban cars or say that the cars drove the people irresponsibly.

Psy, that's not hard to accept. For most addicts and alcoholics it is not the substance that is really kicking there ass, but the symptoms behind the affliction.  Old saying, get a drunk horse thief sober and what do you got, a sober horse thief. It does come down to decisions and some just don't have the intestinal fortitude to stop killing themselves.
One point I will not argue about is what happens when I ingest alcohol as compared to when you ingest alcohol, Psy. For whatever reasons (physically or mentally) I have a different response then others (not everyone) just most. From day one, I have always drank till I about passed out,

[DannyB II]

Anne Bonney wrote;
" I try to get my mom to stop eating so much. "

Maybe she could speak to max pain. I understand he has a weight problem also

None ya, why are you giving Max such a hard time. Don't like this thread or Max move on. Being immature does not look good for a 54 year old.

[psy]

OK ok ok.  Sort of my fault but I think this thread has veered a bit off-topic.  If we're going to talk about AA or the disease concept, let's talk about it as it relates to drug prohibition.  A debate on whether AA works is something better suited to the Addiction Treatment Philosophies forum.

Fair enough, I'll try to keep it on topic. But to be honest, sending a discussion to the ATP forum seems to be the kiss of death, as far as discussion goes. Not many people are seeming to opt in to that forum.

Maybe because some people don't know about it.  But the word will get round.  There is a lot of interest in the discussion as is evidenced by this thread.

[Froderik]

I'd like to introduce ibogaine  -- as a way to kick heroin -- as a part of this discussion. To stay on point...not only should heroin be legalized, but humane and effective treatment should be available to those who are addicted to it and have a desire to be done with it. Ibogaine therapy is available in other countries, but so far it is not available in America...(I hope this isn't too far off topic.)

[Stonewall]

While it may seem extreme, I would decriminalize all drugs that are currently illegal even via prescription.

The 'War on Drugs' is a war on the American People. It would actually be better for everyone if this 'war' did not exist.

The 'war' does not work. People can get drugs within a few minutes. We don't really have to concern ourselves about what would happen if these drugs were legal. As things are now, it is as if they are legal, as far as the ability to acquire drugs.

So, what would change would be the State itself. The money spent on this 'war', would be spent elsewhere. We would be a more free society. A safer society. A more wealthy society.

[Shadyacres]

While it may seem extreme, I would decriminalize all drugs that are currently illegal even via prescription.

The 'War on Drugs' is a war on the American People. It would actually be better for everyone if this 'war' did not exist.

The 'war' does not work. People can get drugs within a few minutes. We don't really have to concern ourselves about what would happen if these drugs were legal. As things are now, it is as if they are legal, as far as the ability to acquire drugs.

So, what would change would be the State itself. The money spent on this 'war', would be spent elsewhere. We would be a more free society. A safer society. A more wealthy society.

AMEN!

[psy]

While it may seem extreme, I would decriminalize all drugs that are currently illegal even via prescription.

The 'War on Drugs' is a war on the American People. It would actually be better for everyone if this 'war' did not exist.

The 'war' does not work. People can get drugs within a few minutes. We don't really have to concern ourselves about what would happen if these drugs were legal. As things are now, it is as if they are legal, as far as the ability to acquire drugs.

So, what would change would be the State itself. The money spent on this 'war', would be spent elsewhere. We would be a more free society. A safer society. A more wealthy society.

God damn. Spot on!

[none-ya]

How about over the counter sodium pentathol. 'Cause every body needs to get thier truth on. Especially around here

[Maximilian]

If the US ends the drug war, which I do believe will happen eventually, then there will be a big increase in the number of treatment centers, and the health aspect of treating addiction will probably receive some of the government funding now going to police, jails, etc. So when we talk about why and how the drug war should end, it's all important to discuss the topic of the impacts that it might have on society, and the solutions that might work at preventing or treating some of the side effects of free access to strong intoxicants. I don't really believe the studies about people saying they won't use illegal drugs if they were made legal. When corporations are allowed to sell these products, it will be in their financial interest in expanding their customer base, which involves heavy marketing. If cocaine and heroin is produced by professionals and companies, then they will probably be much safer to use, and the dosage much easier to predict and overdoses less likely, which is a good thing. But making illegal drugs safer, and easier to access, and acceptable in society will mean that more people use them. To ignore this is to ignore human nature. Will employers still drug test or will that become illegal and an invasion of privacy? What age will someone be able to buy cocaine from the corner store? How many OxyContins would a person be allowed to buy everyday?

With the end of the drug war, will come a boon in the treatment industry, and it will probably be government funded. I do believe the treatment industry is much more effective in dealing with these problems than the justice system, for obvious reasons. But if people here are so anti-treatment and anti-AA, I am curious what they propose to do with the many new people who become addicted to the very addictive drugs listed in this list we all voted on. There will be many unintended side effects that must be dealt with, and failing to address them will mean the continuation of the drug war because people will be afraid of these effects if there is not a rational solution to offer as an alternative to the existing system.

[Shadyacres]

I think any negative effects of such a policy would be outweighed by the obvious positive ones, like taking all that money out of the hands of Mexican and American organized crime and putting a big chunk of it (via taxes) into the US Treasury.  And getting those drugs off the corner and off the school yards and into a liquor store or drug store, which would only sell to adults.  There may be an initial spike in drug use but I think that would equalize when the novelty wore off.  And if more people need treatment, let them get it.  My main beef is with teen programs from which you CANNOT leave.  If all drugs were legal and regulated, teens would have a harder time getting them.  And if Mom or Dad could go to the liquor store, buy a joint and smoke it, maybe they wouldn't be so uptight and intolerant.  Maybe they would not be so quick to condemn their own children to a thought reform gulag.

[Anne Bonney]

But if people here are so anti-treatment and anti-AA,

Wait...who said anything about being "anti-treatment"?

[Froderik]

How about over the counter sodium pentathol. 'Cause every body needs to get thier truth on. Especially around here

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :rocker:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :cheers:  :rasta:

[Stonewall]

If the US ends the drug war, which I do believe will happen eventually, then there will be a big increase in the number of treatment centers, and the health aspect of treating addiction will probably receive some of the government funding now going to police, jails, etc. So when we talk about why and how the drug war should end, it's all important to discuss the topic of the impacts that it might have on society, and the solutions that might work at preventing or treating some of the side effects of free access to strong intoxicants. I don't really believe the studies about people saying they won't use illegal drugs if they were made legal. When corporations are allowed to sell these products, it will be in their financial interest in expanding their customer base, which involves heavy marketing. If cocaine and heroin is produced by professionals and companies, then they will probably be much safer to use, and the dosage much easier to predict and overdoses less likely, which is a good thing. But making illegal drugs safer, and easier to access, and acceptable in society will mean that more people use them. To ignore this is to ignore human nature. Will employers still drug test or will that become illegal and an invasion of privacy? What age will someone be able to buy cocaine from the corner store? How many OxyContins would a person be allowed to buy everyday?

With the end of the drug war, will come a boon in the treatment industry, and it will probably be government funded. I do believe the treatment industry is much more effective in dealing with these problems than the justice system, for obvious reasons. But if people here are so anti-treatment and anti-AA, I am curious what they propose to do with the many new people who become addicted to the very addictive drugs listed in this list we all voted on. There will be many unintended side effects that must be dealt with, and failing to address them will mean the continuation of the drug war because people will be afraid of these effects if there is not a rational solution to offer as an alternative to the existing system.

I wonder if that is really true?

The Drug Treatment Part.

Most people who enter drug treatment do so as a result of a Court Order, or some other State sanction.

The negative effects of the War on Drugs far outweigh any benefit.

By any measure.

Check out this site...

http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm