Is Jail better than a program?

[Maximilian]

I am wondering what people's opinions are on this. Do you feel that juvenile hall is a preferable location for a troubled teen, than them being placed in a program?

Let's say a parent knows their teen is using drugs, and knows the teen is stealing from the neighbors home to support their drug use. What should the parent do?

Should the parent call the police and have their own teen arrested for burglary and drug possession?
Should the parent ignore this behavior, and hope it gets better?
Should the parent confront their teen and attempt to control the situation themselves?

But what if the teen is caught by the police. The judge gives the parent a choice, six months in a juvenile hall or state run boot camp, or the parent can send the kid to a private program instead. What would you suggest this parent do?

[Samara]

Well, I don't think a program specializing in mind fuckery and emotional abuse is EVER appropriate.  I think jail may be appropriate for some things, but not normal teenage defiance orsmoking weed.  I personally would benefit from neither.  My life wasn't saved by an abusive program, and I am not a criminal.

[Samara]

I guess what I'm saying is that it often shouldn't be an either/or situation.

[Whooter]

From my personal stand point I couldn’t imagine choosing Juvy for my child.  If a parent can afford a private stay then they should take that route.  The children in juvy don’t tend to move along very well academically or learn new study habits.  Many of these kids are severely behind academically to the point where they are overwhelmed and decide to opt for a GED.  Programs can offer so much more.  The down side for many of the posters here are the LGAT’s which seem to be a big sticky point but I think the upside outweighs the down side in many cases.

I realize this doesn’t apply to all programs.  A parents need to do their homework and choose a program which is a good fit for their child’s needs or seek guidance from someone who knows about the industry.



...

[DannyB II]

I guess what I'm saying is that it often shouldn't be an either/or situation.

Well it is, more then we like. (I don't mean this to be offensive). It is a great question because many kids face the problem. I would love to have a survey done that showed how many kids had the choice between juvie and a program. Boy, I think it would be interesting.
I know many folks here have a hard time with children being disciplined for their actions, well whether we like it or not folks,  judges, PO's, school boards, have a hand at disciplining a wayward child. There are wayward children also that get themselves in way over their heads in trouble.
No I don't believe that the juvie I went to was better then Elan. The violence being dolled out by guards, (guards pets boys), bullies, gangs ect...was horrible. YCC in R.I. was out of control in the early seventies.
I have visited several juvenile centers in Georgia and the violence is still there, intimidation by others, gangs, sexual deviancy, drugs ect....

[Anne Bonney]

So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions.   The "which is better/worse" questions.   Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?

But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight.  I would have access to my rights in juvie.  I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie.  I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie.  I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.  

But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.

[DannyB II]

So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions.   The "which is better/worse" questions.   Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?

But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight.  I would have access to my rights in juvie.  I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie.  I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie.  I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.  

But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.

I want to strongly argue with you, no you would not have access "to my rights". There is no "due process" unless they say so. You contact some one pretty much like you did at Straight. Your letters are screened going in and out, plus it is a "privilege" in juvie that can be taken away. Everything is a "privilege" not a right in juvie. Not saying this is right just a reality.
Oh, it is a situation that is more often then you think, it just is not going on in Samara or your world. Not to be condescending or judgmental in any way, Anne but it really is not.
No most of these $50,000.00 programs were talking about here are not dealing with the majority of the kids ending up in juvie but there is enough upper middle class and up that are there for serious crimes.

[Whooter]

So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions.   The "which is better/worse" questions.   Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?

But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight.  I would have access to my rights in juvie.  I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie.  I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie.  I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.  

But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.

Straight really didnt have any end point from what I have read.  If you went to juvy at least you would know the day you would be getting out.  I think based on that alone I would choose juvy over straight myself (not even considering all the cult stuff you guys had to put up with).  In my opinion a program needs to have defined steps towards the final end point of when you leave.

The daunting cloud of never knowing if you would ever leave would be unbearable in my opinion.



...

[DannyB II]

So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions.   The "which is better/worse" questions.   Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?

But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight.  I would have access to my rights in juvie.  I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie.  I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie.  I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.  

But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.

Straight really didnt have any end point from what I have read.  If you went to juvy at least you would know the day you would be getting out.  I think based on that alone I would choose juvy over straight myself (not even considering all the cult stuff you guys had to put up with).  In my opinion a program needs to have defined steps towards the final end point of when you leave.

The daunting cloud of never knowing if you would ever leave would be unbearable in my opinion.


NO shit, I agree.



...

[Anne Bonney]

I want to strongly argue with you, no you would not have access "to my rights".

Well, I want to say, strongly, that people in "juvie" at the same time I was in Straight did indeed have access to their rights.  I was pissed as hell when I got out of Straight and found out about it too.

There is no due process unless they say so. You contact some one pretty much like you did at Straight.

Contact who at Straight??  We weren't allowed to contact anyone.  Period.

Your letters are screened going in and out, plus it is a privilege in juvie that can be taken away. Everything is a privilege not a right in juvie. Not saying this is right just a reality.
Oh, it is a situation that is more often then you think, it just is not going on in Samara or your world. Not to be condescending or judgmental in any way, Anne but it really is not.

You may not have meant it to be, but it sure did come across that way.  The facts, as I know them from my experience and that of someone who was in Florida's "juvie" at the same time I was, are that they had access to their rights.  There was an abuse hotline phone number on damn near every wall inside "juvie" and they could call it at any time.  Not that it meant that they 'got out', but at least they had some semblance of rights as a human being.  We were told, flat out by Virgil himself, that "we didn't have no goddamned rights".

[Anne Bonney]

Please don't take offense Anne, I am trying real hard to mend fences with you. It will take time for you to understand me.

I guess so.  If you're serious, I appreciate the effort.

My point was there are plenty of parents with their children that are facing this decision. Usually come down to money and slots being open in State/Federal funded programs.

If parents can afford the kinds of places we're discussing here, they can damn well afford decent treatment or at the very least a decent alternative (backpacking thru Europe or something similar as I've suggested.  Be a parent!  Get involved with your child's life, especially if they're struggling!!)
 

Anne, you just proved my point, we had those damn messages on the walls too but they never let you use the "damn" phone. Mom visited me once a month, (once a fucking month) I am still pissed at that hell hole.
 
Yeh, semblance  that's all it was.[/b] [/color]

For 8 months the only glimpse I had of my parents was from across the warehouse, them with microphone in hand telling me how horrible I was (in front of 350 - 400 kids plus all their parents, never mind that I was never 'horrible' by any stretch of the imagination) and how much they hoped I'd "internalize the program" soon so that they could speak to me.


Wait.....occasionally I'd "earn" a 5 minute supervised "talk" with them during which I was only allowed to apologize for all my "past sins".  If I tried to tell them what was really happening to me, I was severely punished afterwards in the unbelievably feared and dreaded "open meeting review".

[SEKTO]

I am wondering what people's opinions are on this. Do you feel that juvenile hall is a preferable location for a troubled teen, than them being placed in a program?

Let's say a parent knows their teen is using drugs, and knows the teen is stealing from the neighbors home to support their drug use. What should the parent do?

Should the parent call the police and have their own teen arrested for burglary and drug possession?
Should the parent ignore this behavior, and hope it gets better?
Should the parent confront their teen and attempt to control the situation themselves?

But what if the teen is caught by the police. The judge gives the parent a choice, six months in a juvenile hall or state run boot camp, or the parent can send the kid to a private program instead. What would you suggest this parent do?

It all depends on the specific situation, the nature of the offense, and the program.  Impossible to give a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

[DannyB II]

Rejection was the worse emotion I felt at the Juvie Hall, they really did not care whether you got better or not, they were no attempts at educating you.
So even though Elan was a crazy insane asylum, some of the staff at least made you feel they cared and were trying to help you.

[Che Gookin]

Depends on the program and the facility for me. For example, the juvie near my hometown in Washington State. A friend of mine used to work there till not long ago in the administration department. She and I were comparing notes and it seems plain as day that if I had a choice between six months in that juvie and six months in Three Springs, I'd pick the Juvie.

For one, kids regularly get turned out of the Juvie early due to crowding issues. Second, they get their three meals, a bed to sleep on, a shower, clean clothing, and access to entertainment guaranteed by the state every single day. Conditions inside the juvie are pretty tame as the kids inside are kept busy enough to keep them out of most trouble. It would be easy time.. in and out so to speak. Three Springs, no possible way you'd be out in six months if they had their say in it.

If I had to choose between a California Youth Authority juvie and a Three Springs program I'd probably take Three Springs. At least in Three Springs you have a better chance of escaping if you run away and the hideous amounts of bullshit you can get into if you decide to stay makes for an easier stretch of time versus getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis in a CYA facility. It's all relative to me as the varying quality of programs versus the varying quality of state juvenile facilities. With the increasing spread of abuse hotlines in programs it occurs to me that within 5 to 10 years the claim that at least you have the right to contact the authorities in a juvie will be all but highly blurred.

Still, there is no escaping the fact that a program is simply you getting drug out of your bed and forced into a treatment routine without your consent.

[Maximilian]

But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.

I've seen some posters here claiming they'd rather be in jail rather than a program, I wonder why they say this. I've also seen posters here giving advice that it's better to call the cops on your troubled teen if they are breaking the law, than send them to a program. I'm just curious how people come to these conclusions, and why they feel that way.

Personally, I'd rather be kept out of the justice system and if I was given a choice I'd choose the private program, but that's me.