Nutraloaf - program punishment diets.

[Anne Bonney]

I'm kind of getting tired of responding to the "well, since you weren't outright killed, you should feel lucky" type of posts.

I don't say things like that, that's how you choose to take it. In a treatment center I was taught about "I statements" and "you statements".

Yes, we've all heard the loaded language (if you've read any of the stuff at http://www.ex-cult.org/ you're now familiar with that term and what it means).   In Straight that particular point was gotten across to the person speaking in group by the entire group pointing to their own foreheads, to indicate "talk about yourself".  You may not have said those specific words, but, IMO, the meaning was well understood.  Especially in this....

But when I think of all the people around the world starving right now, they would consider the punishment diet a great feast, so it's all relative. It's all relative, since we are all used to getting great food in any quantity we want. So for me to complain about the diet makes me feel spoiled , out of touch with the real world, so I don't think it was an issue really. I'd rather be in a program getting a bean burrito, than in Africa starvinv to death wishing for anything to eat.

Now, if I'm truly reading too much into that.....fine but as I said, it comes across as you minimizing or attempting to invalidate our experiences.  

I talk about myself, my experiences and my opinions. I don't tell other people how they should feel. But I am willing to be honest about how "I" feel.

And "you" talk about how "you" feel about what "other" people post and feel.

[DannyB II]

I'm kind of getting tired of responding to the "well, since you weren't outright killed, you should feel lucky" type of posts.

I don't say things like that, that's how you choose to take it. In a treatment center I was taught about "I statements" and "you statements".

Yes, we've all heard the loaded language (if you've read any of the stuff at http://www.ex-cult.org/ you're now familiar with that term and what it means).   In Straight that particular point was gotten across to the person speaking in group by the entire group pointing to their own foreheads, to indicate "talk about yourself".  You may not have said those specific words, but, IMO, the meaning was well understood.  Especially in this....

But when I think of all the people around the world starving right now, they would consider the punishment diet a great feast, so it's all relative. It's all relative, since we are all used to getting great food in any quantity we want. So for me to complain about the diet makes me feel spoiled , out of touch with the real world, so I don't think it was an issue really. I'd rather be in a program getting a bean burrito, than in Africa starvinv to death wishing for anything to eat.

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Now, if I'm truly reading too much into that.....fine but as I said, it comes across as you minimizing or attempting to invalidate our experiences.  

Max, damn I did miss that paragraph. (sorry Anne) She does have a point, it could be misleading a bit.

I talk about myself, my experiences and my opinions. I don't tell other people how they should feel. But I am willing to be honest about how "I" feel.

And "you" talk about how "you" feel about what "other" people post and feel.

[Whooter]

I dint realize Nutraloaf was a real word.  I thought you made this up Che!  It is funny sounding

....but prison wardens argue that nutraloaf provides enough nutrition to keep prisoners healthy without requiring utensils to be issued.

Nutraloaf





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[Che Gookin]

God almighty that thing looks utterly disgusting. It amazes me how they've managed to get the recipe down to have nearly zero in the way of taste.


Though, it doesn't look nearly half as vile as scrambled pancakes. I used to have to cook meals in campsite now and again with the boys. None of us could get our pancakes done properly, so we'd scramble them like eggs. Would always end up with nearly half the group having the squirts for the rest of the day.

Not sure why they found that so funny, but they did for some reason.

weirdos.

[Maximilian]

I'm kind of getting tired of responding to the "well, since you weren't outright killed, you should feel lucky" type of posts.

I don't say things like that, that's how you choose to take it. In a treatment center I was taught about "I statements" and "you statements".

Yes, we've all heard the loaded language (if you've read any of the stuff at http://www.ex-cult.org/ you're now familiar with that term and what it means).   In Straight that particular point was gotten across to the person speaking in group by the entire group pointing to their own foreheads, to indicate "talk about yourself".  You may not have said those specific words, but, IMO, the meaning was well understood.  Especially in this....

But when I think of all the people around the world starving right now, they would consider the punishment diet a great feast, so it's all relative. It's all relative, since we are all used to getting great food in any quantity we want. So for me to complain about the diet makes me feel spoiled , out of touch with the real world, so I don't think it was an issue really. I'd rather be in a program getting a bean burrito, than in Africa starvinv to death wishing for anything to eat.

Now, if I'm truly reading too much into that.....fine but as I said, it comes across as you minimizing or attempting to invalidate our experiences.  

I talk about myself, my experiences and my opinions. I don't tell other people how they should feel. But I am willing to be honest about how "I" feel.

And "you" talk about how "you" feel about what "other" people post and feel.

I'm sorry that you are so offended by my opinion, but that's how I feel. Our punishment diet was a banana and dry bagel for breakfast, and a large bean burrito with lettuce in a tortilla for dinner. Compared to our good food that we got everyday, this was relatively bland and less filling. But I am also saying, for me to sit here and complain about it, I honestly feel like a spoiled american who expects good food all the time, when the fact is a lot of people around the world would consider that so called punishment diet I received, a rare and welcome feast.

[Whooter]

I'm sorry that you are so offended by my opinion, but that's how I feel. Our punishment diet was a banana and dry bagel for breakfast, and a large bean burrito with lettuce in a tortilla for dinner. Compared to our good food that we got everyday, this was relatively bland and less filling. But I am also saying, for me to sit here and complain about it, I honestly feel like a spoiled american who expects good food all the time, when the fact is a lot of people around the world would consider that so called punishment diet I received, a rare and welcome feast.

I dont see how that was offensive and I tend to agree with you on this point, Maximillian, the minimum food you describe would be welcomed in other less fortunate countries.  There are many posters here on fornits who feel food should not be used in the process of modifying behavior under "any" circumstances.   But in reality most families utilize food as a behavior modifier also in the form of withholding dessert, snacks etc.

The only valid argument I see is if the program withheld food calories below the minimum requirement for several days at a time.



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[Che Gookin]

I don't think anyone really cares about someone losing their dessert, at least I don't, but the idea of people being put on a punishment diet as described by Annie is pretty offensive. They've done the punishment diet in the North Carolina Three Springs program, bread and water diet for non-compliant youths.  This was while the kids were on full day work projects as well.

It is my preference that the programs and facilities do not use food as a means of control. It really makes more sense to leave food out of that equation. There are plenty of other ways to encourage and promote healthy lifestyle choices.

[Whooter]

I don't think anyone really cares about someone losing their dessert, at least I don't, but the idea of people being put on a punishment diet as described by Annie is pretty offensive. They've done the punishment diet in the North Carolina Three Springs program, bread and water diet for non-compliant youths.  This was while the kids were on full day work projects as well.

It is my preference that the programs and facilities do not use food as a means of control. It really makes more sense to leave food out of that equation. There are plenty of other ways to encourage and promote healthy lifestyle choices.

I agree for the most part.  But if a kid screws up and is on restriction or whatever then maybe he doesnt join the pizza party or ice cream social.  I Think every kid should have a healthy sit down meal 3 times a day.  I dont advocate bread and water by any means.  Those days should be put behind us or if not then regulation should be passed.



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[Maximilian]

In the psychiatric hospital I was in, there were a couple of girls suffering from eating disorders and the staff would make them to drink a certain number of Ensure drinks everyday so they would gain weight. One of them would put up a lot of opposition and wouldn't drink them at dinner, so she'd have to stay up after everyone else went back in their rooms for the night, and sit across the table from the nurse until she drank it. From the sound of the crying and emotion it sounded almost as if she felt she was ruining everything she worked so hard to achieve, she was really, really thin.

[Che Gookin]

I don't think anyone really cares about someone losing their dessert, at least I don't, but the idea of people being put on a punishment diet as described by Annie is pretty offensive. They've done the punishment diet in the North Carolina Three Springs program, bread and water diet for non-compliant youths.  This was while the kids were on full day work projects as well.

It is my preference that the programs and facilities do not use food as a means of control. It really makes more sense to leave food out of that equation. There are plenty of other ways to encourage and promote healthy lifestyle choices.

I agree for the most part.  But if a kid screws up and is on restriction or whatever then maybe he doesnt join the pizza party or ice cream social.  I Think every kid should have a healthy sit down meal 3 times a day.  I dont advocate bread and water by any means.  Those days should be put behind us or if not then regulation should be passed.



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Depends on context of the event for me, I used to hate removing privileges from kids to eat with their families at Family Days. Yet that sort of thing was considered quite normal and still is normal. Some kids who couldn't keep it together would get white bread sandwiches while others would get all the good home cooked food their parents brought for family day dinner. Which is why after a about six months I just stopped using this as a consequence.

 Again, I've worked in a program where restrictions of this sort were not present. It worked out well for the youth, the staff, and the families involved in the long run. A non-punitive approach can work if properly implemented as the idea behind it being the kid is already being punished enough by being in the program.

Still won't agree to a program unless it is deemed needed by some sort of court.

[Anne Bonney]

I'm sorry that you are so offended by my opinion, but that's how I feel.

I don't take offense to your opinion, especially about your own experiences.  What I (I think many of us here) do take offense to is your commenting on our posts (like mine about receiving only peanut butter on bread for weeks/months on end) and talking about it like I should be grateful for what I got.  That, I do find offensive.  It is abusive to deny a child proper nutrition, especially in that stage of physical growth.  If you truly can't see that, and truly can't see how your comments might be found offensive, then you're just not trying to see 'the other side'.

Our punishment diet was a banana and dry bagel for breakfast, and a large bean burrito with lettuce in a tortilla for dinner. Compared to our good food that we got everyday, this was relatively bland and less filling. But I am also saying, for me to sit here and complain about it, I honestly feel like a spoiled american who expects good food all the time, when the fact is a lot of people around the world would consider that so called punishment diet I received, a rare and welcome feast.

Wonderful, but that's not what I experienced and you responded to my post about my experience with this...

But when I think of all the people around the world starving right now, they would consider the punishment diet a great feast, so it's all relative.

[Anne Bonney]

I agree for the most part.  But if a kid screws up and is on restriction or whatever then maybe he doesnt join the pizza party or ice cream social.  

But that's not what we're talking about and, again, you knew this.  You keep trying to imply that we're saying anything remotely close to that when we speak about withholding basic nutrition as punishment when you know it's not true.  

I Think every kid should have a healthy sit down meal 3 times a day.  I dont advocate bread and water by any means.  Those days should be put behind us or if not then regulation should be passed.

Regulations are already in place.  The "peanut butter diet" is abusive.  A facility does not have the right to abuse a child.

[Whooter]

I agree for the most part.  But if a kid screws up and is on restriction or whatever then maybe he doesnt join the pizza party or ice cream social.  

But that's not what we're talking about and, again, you knew this.  You keep trying to imply that we're saying anything remotely close to that when we speak about withholding basic nutrition as punishment when you know it's not true.  

I Think every kid should have a healthy sit down meal 3 times a day.  I dont advocate bread and water by any means.  Those days should be put behind us or if not then regulation should be passed.

Regulations are already in place.  The "peanut butter diet" is abusive.  A facility does not have the right to abuse a child.

What I was indicating was that I agree with Che's statement that food shouldnt be used as a way to control a child or discipline them to the point where it effects their calories.  But if a child breaks the rules then I would think it okay to deny them a special treat or event.

As far as abuse goes.  I dont believe anyone has the right to abuse a child.



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[Froderik]

I Think every kid should have a healthy sit down meal 3 times a day.  I dont advocate bread and water by any means.  Those days should be put behind us or if not then regulation should be passed.

Regulations are already in place.  The "peanut butter diet" is abusive.  A facility does not have the right to abuse a child.

I'm sorry, but the only acceptable form of "regulation" of a place that does things like this is to shut the place down.

Programs have been getting away with abuse and murder for far too long now.

Now go ahead and start with the "But what would you do if your kid was blah blah blah" questions...

[Anne Bonney]

I Think every kid should have a healthy sit down meal 3 times a day.  I dont advocate bread and water by any means.  Those days should be put behind us or if not then regulation should be passed.

Regulations are already in place.  The "peanut butter diet" is abusive.  A facility does not have the right to abuse a child.

I'm sorry, but the only acceptable form of "regulation" of a place that does things like this is to shut the place down.

Programs have been getting away with abuse and murder for far too long now.

Now go ahead and start with the "But what would you do if your kid was blah blah blah" questions...

Completely agreed.  As Newton and Whooter are so fond of saying "kids ain't got no goddamned rights".  I was just pointing out that there are rights and regulations already in place to prevent/punish child abuse, which programs could give a shit about.  Which is why the only solution is as you suggest.....shut 'em down.