I want to introduce an idea to this debate and see what everyone thinks about it. There seems to be a lot of distrust of AA here, and many posters here seem to ridicule the people who go to AA and call them names like "stepcrafters" (never heard that before fornits). Some posters here seem to think they have the answer to the problem of addiction, that addiction is really just a "bad habit" and people are powerful enough to quit whenever they wish. But AA teaches people they are powerless, which ends up harming those people by making them think they will be addicted forever.
Well I can tell you as someone who has dealt with addiction, that it is a disease that lasts forever. There is no cure, and you never get over it. People that say otherwise are usually selling something, or have no experience with addiction themselves or with family members. The reason defending AA on fornits can feel like a waste of time, is because AA is already a success. Fornits posters opinions about AA is not going to impact the organization in any way, whether we condemn it or rally for it.
I've been through many different forms of drug treatment, over the years. So far every single treatment center I've gone to had some form of AA meetings, and recovery ideas adopted within their treatment system. The only facility I've been at that did not use AA in any way, is the private program I went to that has its own subforum here, they never mentioned anything related to AA even once. They actually believed in the ideology Psy tells people here, that we are all powerful people in charge of our choices, and being powerless is not an idea to embrace. According to the program we could choose to quit, and choose to be an addict or not. Now I have admitted that this program saved my life, and that's true, but I disagree with their philosophy about life being a series of choices. Some things in our lives are and always be out of our control, like addiction.
So lucky for me, I never experienced a warped version of AA inside of an abusive program, perhaps that is why I don't feel ill will towards AA. My experience has always been voluntary, even if my stays in treatment centers was involuntary, they never forced us to participate in meetings, or read the big books. I had good and bad experiences in all these various treatment facilities, but one thing that was always positive was the AA/NA meetings. People from NA would actually come from "the outside" and volunteer their time to hold meetings inside the treatment center. They were always very nice and kind, and it was helpful to talk to people who went through what you are going through, rather than people who are well meaning but don't understand some of the things you say to them.
I went to a lot of meetings outside of treatment centers as well, and they were also very positive experiences. I was dealing with a lot of issues and had serious problems and they were nothing but open, accepting, nonjudgmental and always offered me more help than I could have possibly accepted. Sometimes their helpfulness was overwhelming because so many people would offer to help, or give you their number to call. It was clear, they were people who cared about you, and did not want to see you fall back into addiction, and end up dead or in jail like so many people with serious addictions do.
AA/NA and it's various groups are a large population of people, probably in the millions. Many different groups of people with various issues have adopted the AA model to form support groups for their own problems, more proof that many people think the AA model is effective for them. The treatment centers I was in that adopted AA as part of their treatment program, were run by highly educated mental health professionals. Are we to believe that everyone from the treatment center employees, down to the person attending their community AA meeting is brainwashed, and part of a cult that works against their own interests? Common sense suggests that is highly unlikely.
Perhaps AA/NA do work, and that is why treatment centers have invited them in, and so many different groups have decided to form their own version of anonymous support groups. Everytime a meeting occurs, people vote with their attendance, if AA did not help these people they would not show up, because they have no obligation to. Yet people continue to go. I've met people with 50 year sobriety chips, and I'd ask it's been so long why do you still come? They'd explain to me that they are still an alcoholic, and even 50 years later even one drink could lead them down the dark path that led them to AA in the first place. This supports the idea that addiction is a disease rather than a choice.
The idea that drug or alcohol addiction is a choice, is nothing short of insulting. Addiction is a serious medical issue. There are experiments using monkeys with drugs like cocaine, and given a choice of cocaine or food they choose to use cocaine and starve to death. Is that their "choice"? Perhaps, if you take a cold hearted, black and white position on the matter. But what most people see is that the chemical changes the chemistry of the person to a degree, they make unhealthy choices to support their addiction, even if it costs them their own lives. Fornits posters think you should just ignore a person dealing with such serious addiction issues, and tell them "just quit, it's your choice". But other people like AA know it's a lot more complicated than that, and a long, long battle for some people, and choose to offer them a support group made up of people who also went through similar experiences. Only somebody who hasn't dealt with serious addiction could dismiss the life destroying cycle of addiction as a "choice", it simply is not accurate.
All of the people who willingly show up at AA/NA meetings going on across the country today, choose to go because something about AA works for them. Maybe you might not understand why, or how it works for them. But does that make you right, and them wrong? Is such a large group of people who willingly make that choice to attend a meeting, a cult? No, of course not. But it's an easy way to dismiss what they are saying, and the hard reality that addiction is a serious disease.
Fornits, on the other hand, is a relatively minuscule population compared to amount of people participating in AA. I think everybody can accept that fact. The few people who make fornits a regular part of their lives, were abused or had negative experiences in programs as underage youths. Some of these programs used a warped version of AA that resembles nothing of the AA in the free world. Fornits takes a extreme political position regarding treatment, in that many posters here think treatment in any form is wrong. That is not a mainstream position. Go talk to regular everyday people who don't read fornits about AA, drug treatment centers, or teen programs. Most people actually support these kind of treatment options, and most people know somebody who went to AA, or had serious addiction issues like a friend of family member.
Fornits is a political conversation. Nowhere else could somebody make such a long argument against AA and be considered mainstream other than the internet, I'm sorry but this is true. Most people see it as a legitimate organization. Finding people with similar views on the internet allows groups to form their own version of reality, which can be a lot different from the world most people live in. On fornits it's a world where all programs are conspiring to hurt as many teens as possible and AA is a cult brainwashing people with dangerous thoughts. If I never experienced programs, or AA I might be inclined to believe it, people here make some good arguments to suggest so. But I know that reality is a lot different than fornits reality, and it's not so black and white as people here like to portray it. Good things happen in "bad" programs, we might not like to admit it, but it's true. AA is good thing, I'm sorry but this is true. I have yet to hear a reason why people here are so against AA, other than they think "it doesn't work".
So I am here to suggest that AA is not the cult. It is fornits, with it's extreme anti treatment opinions and agenda that is truly the cult. Fornits anti treatment ideology is based on a select number of experiences, reinforced with a forum designed to focus solely on these negative experiences. When in reality, the people posting on fornits compared to the number who went to programs is relatively insignificant, people here take these limited number of experiences and use them to paint the entire industry with blood. Posters here are reluctant to admit that anybody could possibly be helped by programs, even though many have come here to say just that. They are dismissed as brainwashed, or as a liar. Like in any extremist political environment, people are in a sort of competition to out extreme each other. Who can oppose treatment the most? This is where Aa comes in, it's not related to the troubled teen industry in any way. Yet because it represents a form of treatment, something this forum is against, then it too must be condemned and intellectual arguments made to support this must be constructed.
In the end though, it doesn't matter that fornits opposes AA, they will survive and thrive like they always have. Fornits on the other hand seems to be getting slower over time, and less people are comfortable with the extremist anti treatment ideology here. AA is based on openness, and helping people. Fornits is now based on censoring and threatening inconvenient opinions, and telling people what to think. You can say whatever you want in an AA meeting and people will listen and not challenge you. Unlike fornits is you dare suggest you had a positive experience in a program, you will be trolled with disgusting pictures, called a liar and be presented with countless conspiracy theories about "who you really are". Fornits is paranoid, close minded and has an ideology built on the faulty foundation of generalizations and self centerednes. AA is exactly the opposite, they are open, and has an ideology built upon the foundation of the experiences of many alcoholics and addicts that collectively make up the organization.
Imagine you are an alcoholic/ addict. You might have made choices the first few times you used, but eventually you lost control and you finally had the realization about what people meant when they say addiction is a disease. You lose your job, your family, your house, all because you can't stop using. Then someone comes up and offers you help. Come to our group of people who went through what you did, and we will listen and not judge you. We want to help you recover and regain the life you had once before. They offer you help, a sober living place, and phone number to call when you feel like using, and tell you can call 24/7. These people who didn't know you, help you after your family and everybody else you knew dismissed you as a problematic alcoholic/addict. How would that make you feel?
But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?
If you can empathize with someone truly suffering from addiction, what option of help would you choose? Which would be more helpful to you, as a person? The answer is why fornits will remain a small, extremist cult of ideas, and AA will remain a successful, large community supported organization . Because one is true, and helpful. The other is insulting, and not helpful. But lucky for us fornits is just a discussion forum, and the extremist rhetoric posted on this forum has no impact on the real world of AA and the people who choose to attend. There is a small group of people who post here who think that AA is a bad organization and should be avoided. But there are millions who make up meetings across the world every day, and as a silent majority they are not represented in fornits reality. But let's look at the big picture, AA will be around for a long time to come. Fornits? Probably not so much.
