Suicide

[reformed12stepper]

I am not from north america. But I am from a country which in the 90s experienced a massive spike in youth suicides particularly in rural young men.  A lot of research went into how to address this issue and many measures both public and philanthropically funded were taken. Most of the money went into local counselling services, support for the bereaved, anti bullying measures, increased medical resources in isolated areas and anonymous hotlines as well as internet based education campaigns on mental health and how best to support a loved one of any age that may be clinically mentally ill or seriously distressed. Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with. I dont say this to be disrespectful of america but to answer the question of how many kids can be helped in a measurable way that t rex and suck it posed.

I also think it is a fine line t rex between parenting and throwing in the towel. I get that a kid with a lot of problems is not easy to cope with and that many parents feel this is their last resort but removal from the community has never historically worked. Not with indigenous children or orphans or even children legally defined as deliquent.

[Ursus]

Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.

What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.

I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.

Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:

Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.

[Whooter]

The difficulty in all of this is trying to determine the cause of suicide in each case.  The sudden onset of feelings of suicide may be exasperated by a child being placed into a program or the feelings may be abated by the security and structure that many programs can offer.

A Study performed by a Colgate University Graduate student found that the children’s stay in a residential program decreased the tendency to commit suicide after graduating.  The kids surveyed were out of the program from 6 months to over two years and 12% of ASR students had attempted suicide prior to treatment, and none reported attempting suicide after treatment.

Link



...

[T-Rex]

I am not from north america. But I am from a country which in the 90s experienced a massive spike in youth suicides particularly in rural young men.  A lot of research went into how to address this issue and many measures both public and philanthropically funded were taken. Most of the money went into local counselling services, support for the bereaved, anti bullying measures, increased medical resources in isolated areas and anonymous hotlines as well as internet based education campaigns on mental health and how best to support a loved one of any age that may be clinically mentally ill or seriously distressed. Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with. I dont say this to be disrespectful of america but to answer the question of how many kids can be helped in a measurable way that t rex and suck it posed.

I also think it is a fine line t rex between parenting and throwing in the towel. I get that a kid with a lot of problems is not easy to cope with and that many parents feel this is their last resort but removal from the community has never historically worked. Not with indigenous children or orphans or even children legally defined as deliquent.

Have you got anything in the form of a link, publication, magazine article or anything to substantiate what you just said. I find it very hard to believe all these children where ever you are from miraculously just got better with a little counseling.
Sounds like the children they were treating had a very mild form of suicidal tendency or none at all.

[T-Rex]

Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.

What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.

I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.

Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:

Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.

There is nothing here to validate this point but reformed, opinion. I have respect for reform but I need more then this. Ursus since when do you just quote a post without any clinical credibility.

[T-Rex]

Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.

What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.

I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.

Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:

Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.

Ursus,
What has to happen here is to analyze whether the program has directly caused this suicide and discern this information with a proper case study, by professionals.
Which by my studies one has not been done officially yet. I may be wrong on that but my bet would be I'm not.
Many posters here have mentioned they believe such in such committed suicide because of his incarceration in Straight, Elan, Benchmark, HLA ect......but we have not had a psychiatric forensic study done on any subject, yet. I would love to see a extensive study done on at least one person without all the hub-bub, so I could see if it was just the program consequences.
I believe everyone here knows that for maybe 98% of these people who committed suicide in the program or after had serious mental and emotional problems prior to even entering the program. Most had already been prone to suicidal tendencies.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Here we go with the bullshit statistics again. Whooter cites a non-study, and T-Rex pulls out some "everybody knows" shit from her ass.

[reformed12stepper]

here are 2 sets one from the ABS . Both show an overall downward trent. In the first year of the campaign when suicide was at its peak and the second year there was a big drop. It has been more or less continuous since then. BTW dont you think it is a little arrogant to suggest that only 1 thing that many people have said they found made them worse off works?

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... 9.0.55.001
http://www.mindframe-media.info/site/in ... play=84340

[DannyB II]

here are 2 sets one from the ABS . Both show an overall downward trent. In the first year of the campaign when suicide was at its peak and the second year there was a big drop. It has been more or less continuous since then. BTW dont you think it is a little arrogant to suggest that only 1 thing that many people have said they found made them worse off works?

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected] ... 9.0.55.001
http://www.mindframe-media.info/site/in ... play=84340

How does any of this relate to the overall subject of this Web Site or the conversation were having here directly. You just posted a general summary of suicides in Australia.
Which is interesting but I am having difficulty following your thought process here.

[reformed12stepper]

t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in  sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.

[Whooter]

t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in  sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trent of continued decreases in the suicide rate.

I believe the rates here in the states have decreased during the same time period, although I dont know if they declined at the same rate.  I would have to examine the data side by side.  But the decline is interesting, thank you for the link.



...

[Eliscu2]

:rofl:

[Whooter]

t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in  sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.

The percentage of kids that attend a program is very low here in the us and typically the kids are struggling with behavior issues not suicide specific issues.  So I dont see how the trends could reflect the success or failure of residential treatment based on national statistics.

In our public school system alone we are seeing between 1,300 and 1,700 children taking their own lives on school property (or traveling to and from school) each year.  We rarely see a child take their own life while attending Therapeutic Boarding schools and data suggests that suicide rates decline after returning home.

But when looking at a 10.5 per 100,000 suicide rate for Australia  and 11.1 for the united States it is difficult to determine contributing factors in their increase or decrease year to year.  If you step back and compare our two countries against the rest of the world we are virtually at the same rate.

I understand that there appears to be a correlation with the onset of a program (which was introduced in Australia) and the decline in suicide rates, but it is difficult to attribute this decline to any one event unless a study is done to confirm it in my opinion.



...

[DannyB II]

t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in  sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.

OK, but nothing I read that you offered as links is suggesting that in the summary. It is not saying that kids are going to treatment or not going to treatment.
Your saying this, which is fine because I find you to be credible in what you say.
Great article.

[reformed12stepper]

you are right danny it does not talk about treatment. This is because with the exception of jail there is no place here where a kids is sent away without consent for treatment. Even in residential drug rehabs is is very rare to see an underage kid there. The closest we have is normal boarding school.
Given that even parents who send their kids away seem to say that it was not what they desired more that they had no choice then why not look at comparable systems in similar cultures? If kids dont want to go and parents dont want to send them and many come out saying it was horrific and that their suicidal feelings were worse then why bother at all? Ok some say they are helped and I accept this. But i dont accept that this is the ONLY way that they could have been helped. Because if it were that genuinely helpful it would exist in more than one place in the world and there would not be the amount of groups of people (not just on this site) that have issues with it.

For example AA for all that people like me don't go in for it, has had some level of international success. Not as much as it likes to think but some. Moreover people like me do not in the majority of places speak of being "forced" to do anything. They can always do what i did and seek a better fit and even talk about it not being for them without being told it was because of some kind of personality deficiency. This is not what I am seeing or hearing here or on facebook or anywhere else. Are there any independent govt statistics on the sucess of private programs in preventing suicide? afterall most govts have some level of stats on private schools and achievement levels.