Reality Check: Most of us were not abused

[SUCK IT]

The posters here call themselves "survivors", which I think is laughable. The term survivor suggests that an experience is so dangerous you are very likely to die. Some kids have died from accidents in treatment and some from staff negligence, that's a fact that cannot be denied, but these are isolated incidents. Kids have died in public schools from suicide and violence, yet people who graduate high school don't refer to themselves as high school survivors, well unless you were at Columbine or something. They rightfully use the term. The people here though, they misuse this term as they do many terms, but they have an agenda and a reason for doing it. They want to make themselves appear as victims, and at the same time suggest to anyone reading the word that programs are so dangerous, that they could have died just for attending.

The truth is tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of teens, these are their own numbers, have been through treatment programs. So the chance of not making it through alive are about 0.0000001%, about the same chance of getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery. Yet the term is so ingrained into these extremists' minds that they don't see it as funny to refer to themselves this way. I talk to people I went through treatment with regularly, and they also laughed at this term.

Let's experiment a bit. The next time you are talking to a 'survivor', ask them exactly, what did they survive? Ask them how, exactly, they were 'abused', and what they think the term means. Ask them for the full story. If they claim "well, I was restrained once, that's abuse!" ask them what lead up to the restraint. They will most likely leave that part out, and willingly mislead you as to what actually happened. The answer is self incriminating, as are most answers to these inquiries, especially why they were sent to treatment in the first place. If you were to believe fornits extremists, treatment programs are filled with a bunch of innocent good two shoes, with evil parents who scheme to have their child abused. This is as absurd as it sounds, yet the people here believe it.

But let's take it further. Ask them why they think programs exist, and you might get a long winded conspiracy theory about how the Reagan and Bush schemed to get them placed into treatment, and that the 'system' was somehow created to have them placed in treatment programs. This of course, is not true, but they believe it. It's all part of the fornits delusion that they are victims of a powerful force, a force they don't quite understand, but they know it's there. So you get debates about what is this force, how it works, who runs it. Much speculation as to whom they perceive as the grand puppet master of teenage abuse. Go ahead, and ask them. You'll get a good laugh waiting for a response lacking insanity.

The next time you interact with a self called 'survivor', ask them these questions.
1. Why do you call yourself a survivor, what exactly did you survive? How many of your peers were killed during treatment?
2. How were you abused, exactly? If you were abused by the legal definition, why didn't you call police once you got out?
3. How were you acting prior to your parents seeking help, what did you do to deserve being placed in treatment?

The answers will be dishonest, of course. But reading through the obvious mistruths in the response can help you gain understanding into the self victimizing mythology that fornits posters have created for themselves. Take notice of how many posters here are claiming they were actually abused in a treatment program, I can count them on one hand. This core group of extremists has their own fornits cult with leaders and everything, and has convinced a few gullible people who never were in treatment to believe that programs are truly evil. These foot soldiers of the cult have a distorted view of treatment programs, all their knowledge of what treatment is like comes from the mythology and mistruths created on this forum.

Their agenda is simple, to discredit all treatment options from parents seeking help. They go into a frenzy when a parent comes asking for advice, posting lies after lies about treatment programs, and claiming any teen placed in treatment will be abused, brainwashed or even murdered. They show no restraint in presenting this mythology, despite it being false, to these parents all to further their agenda. To them keeping a troubled kid from receiving help is a victory. Think about that for a second, preventing a teen from getting help is a victory to them. This is the result of group think and a deep reservoir of hatred that exists on this site. They must create targets and enemies to focus this hatred outwards, to prevent themselves from imploding. Because ultimately, this hatred will be released whether it's directed toward programs or not, and that is also evident on this forum. This is why they have posters who herd the sheep into hating certain programs. That's how you get people who never went to a treatment center claiming it is abusive or should be shut down, when in truth they have no knowledge of what it's truly like there.

So if you found this forum and are wondering why it seems like programs are evil, you have to realize this is a false impression forced upon you by the myths created on this forum by people with an agenda to discredit all treatment options for adolescents. That's why when you ask them for an alternative, they tell the teenage kid to just run away, your parents are evil and you're better off living on the street. This is not about caring about teens, it's about winning an intellectual battle. This is a battle they cannot win, and they know it. They just want to get a few gullible parents to keep their kid from getting help, and call it a victory. Then they can go to bed feeling that 'they made a difference'. This forum is filled with extremists who have a disturbing agenda, to prevent teens from receiving the help they need and even want. Don't fall for the hype. The 99.9% of us who went through treatment made it through just fine, and are better off because of it. We were not abused, and do not refer to ourselves as 'survivors'. This is a fornits phenomenon of extremism and that's why so few people post here. Just thought I'd give you a heads up to the lies you are about to be inundated with.

[Anne Bonney]

Boy, you've got to be really threatened by what we're saying for you to put all this time & effort into trying to discredit it. I'm starting to really feel sorry for you.

[Froderik]

SUCK IT, Why do you care to debate this point so much?

I dislike when people "cry wolf" as much as the next person does, but do you really believe that's what is going on here?

I don't think you "feel threatened" per se, but you seem to have some strong misconceptions about the industry in general.

Also- (if you don't mind answering).. were you in a program? What is your relevant experience (if any) with programs?

[SUCK IT]

I'll accept your pity as a result of your own experience and keep it in my toolbox. Manne I am not looking to discredit anyone who is telling the truth. You were mistreated in a program 30 years ago, that is long out of business? Ok. What relevance does this have on new treatment programs opening up? How can you take a single experience decades ago, and apply it to all treatment programs, that you know nothing about? Let's say we accept everything on fornits as fact. So a small percentage, a very slim minority of kids who went to treatment are unhappy about it, and claim they were abused. So we should shut down the entire industry? We should throw stones at new programs that are actually attempting to improve the options available for troubled teens? This is what fornits is all about. Taking a few select experiences and using it to generalize about the entire industry. One kids is too many! I can here the extremist claiming, well what we don't hear about is the kid who stayed at home and hung themselves in the closet. The truth is some teens need help, and the options available today are safe and effective, and very much not abusive. Write a book about your experience, but don't jump to the conclusion that just because you had a negative experience, therefore every other teen will, in every program, until the end of time. This is the conclusion that makes fornits posters extreme.

On the other hand you have ed consultants, who also acknowledge the good and bad in the industry, and help parents make the decision which option might be best for their kid. What is wrong with this? These people are 'professionals' and yet are attacked here as if they are evil for making this distinction between good programs and not so good. Whooter is similarly hated here for making this very logical, and accurate assumption. It is a fact that most kids who go through treatment will never be abused, mistreated, or killed. Yet in a thread recently about a teen being sent away, the posters here made every attempt to scare the parent using this misinformation on a program nobody here knows anything about. You can spend hours staring at a website and realize that is is evil?  No, that's not possible. It's better for parents to seek help from a professional EdCon than come here, this is a conclusion based on common sense. If the people here could look at this issue with an open mind they would realize this as well. It's myths and generalizations that lead to the incorrect conclusion that is necessary to become so deluded, and that is precisely what the fornits cult believes. That's why I call it a cult, because it's a conclusion that is illogical, based on emotion and just plain not true. Yet here people believe it, and this core group support each other in this delusion, just like a cult. I know I'm not the only one who sees this, open your mind people.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

[jaredsmom]

Hey Suck It,

Your post was well thought out and nicely presented.  I do, however, want to address one line from it.  When someone tells a story of abuse, and you say, "well what did you do to lead to that?", you are insinuating that abuse under some circumstances is fine.  A chaplain in the Navy once asked me if I was ever abused.  I told him that the times I'd been hit (by my father, not a program) were because I'd provoked him.  Just a clarification, I'm not referring to paddles, I'm referring to kicks, nosebleeds, or other extreme forms of punishment.  I told him how I was an unruly child and I'd get out of hand so my dad would do this.  He said this, which I've never forgotten: " That's usually the case, but he was an adult and you were a child."  
I am not going to argue for or against any program.  I'm over that, and I hate participating in the petty arguments that take place over it on this forum.  I just wanted you to reconsider that statement.  Abuse is not justified.  Disciplinary actions are acceptable if they don't become abusive.  Yes, there is a fine line between these and sometimes it is crossed, but the difference is in how the disciplinary action fits the crime.  If someone is restrained because they are potentially harmful to those around him/her or potentially harmful to  himself/herself, then it's not abuse, it's just restraining.  If someone is restrained as a way of punishment because they broke a rule, it's abuse.  Fine line, but a world of difference.

[SUCK IT]

SUCK IT, Why do you care to debate this point so much?

I dislike when people "cry wolf" as much as the next person does, but do you really believe that's what is going on here?

I don't think you "feel threatened" per se, but you seem to have some strong misconceptions about the industry in general.

Also- (if you don't mind answering).. were you in a program? What is your relevant experience (if any) with programs?

I was in a treatment program that is commonly discussed here, yes. I am driven to counter what I view as bullshit, and laughable extremism. I don't refer to myself as a 'survivor', for instance, because I don't know anyone I went through treatment with who didn't survive it. So with a 100% survival rate, what sense would it make for me to call myself this? It's things like this that cause me to conclude that fornits extremism is the result of group think, and this group helps support each other's delusions. I refuse to accept the fornits mythology of what treatment programs are like, just because a group of hostile posters suggest I am full of shit. I draw my conclusions based on my own experience not what other people say. thanks for asking

[SUCK IT]

Hey Suck It,

Your post was well thought out and nicely presented.  I do, however, want to address one line from it.  When someone tells a story of abuse, and you say, "well what did you do to lead to that?", you are insinuating that abuse under some circumstances is fine.  A chaplain in the Navy once asked me if I was ever abused.  I told him that the times I'd been hit (by my father, not a program) were because I'd provoked him.  Just a clarification, I'm not referring to paddles, I'm referring to kicks, nosebleeds, or other extreme forms of punishment.  I told him how I was an unruly child and I'd get out of hand so my dad would do this.  He said this, which I've never forgotten: " That's usually the case, but he was an adult and you were a child."  
I am not going to argue for or against any program.  I'm over that, and I hate participating in the petty arguments that take place over it on this forum.  I just wanted you to reconsider that statement.  Abuse is not justified.  Disciplinary actions are acceptable if they don't become abusive.  Yes, there is a fine line between these and sometimes it is crossed, but the difference is in how the disciplinary action fits the crime.  If someone is restrained because they are potentially harmful to those around him/her or potentially harmful to  himself/herself, then it's not abuse, it's just restraining.  If someone is restrained as a way of punishment because they broke a rule, it's abuse.  Fine line, but a world of difference.

Fair enough. I was referring to the watered down fornits version of the word 'abuse', which includes things which I don't consider (and neither would law enforcement, lawyers, courts or anybody else with credibility) to be abusive.
When an extremist considers group therapy or riding horses to be abusive, then I feel you must question this, rather than just accept this false use of the term. I do not consider a restraint abusive if it's justified, and the justification is the part that is usually left out of the stories written here. I don't say no abuse happens in programs, I am saying it's extremely rare, and even more rarely motivated by a love of violence by staff, usually there is a reason it takes place.  Most posters here have watered down the term 'abuse' to the degree that any form of treatment falls under this category. Most teens were having issues and misbehaving prior to being placed in treatment, this is usually omitted from the descriptions of 'abuse' so often found on this forum.  I believe this needs to be addressed, because it's easy to present one side and make it seem programs are much more violent than they actually are, or that things like restrains happen for no reason. When I saw restrains, it was always for a good reason, I didn't see staff just doing it for fun.

[DannyB II]

SUCK IT, Why do you care to debate this point so much?

I dislike when people "cry wolf" as much as the next person does, but do you really believe that's what is going on here?

I don't think you "feel threatened" per se, but you seem to have some strong misconceptions about the industry in general.

Also- (if you don't mind answering).. were you in a program? What is your relevant experience (if any) with programs?

Froderik, you might not like this coming from me but this is actually one of my main problems here, the embellishment by so many posters here. Some of you do it on purpose, so much it looks like your selling a product.
At times when I'm reading rebuttals, they are the same rebuttals that were being said 30 years ago before web sites.
Why is it so important for him/her to justify his experience or lack of. Read his/her post does it have merit, is it true, is the opinion strong, are there facts. The answer to all of those questions are yes.
That is all we need to know, now what do we want to do about it.
Last, why does "suckit," "STATE" the point so much because no one here wants to "DEBATE" it.

[DannyB II]

The posters here call themselves "survivors", which I think is laughable. The term survivor suggests that an experience is so dangerous you are very likely to die. Some kids have died from accidents in treatment and some from staff negligence, that's a fact that cannot be denied, but these are isolated incidents. Kids have died in public schools from suicide and violence, yet people who graduate high school don't refer to themselves as high school survivors, well unless you were at Columbine or something. They rightfully use the term. The people here though, they misuse this term as they do many terms, but they have an agenda and a reason for doing it. They want to make themselves appear as victims, and at the same time suggest to anyone reading the word that programs are so dangerous, that they could have died just for attending.

The truth is tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of teens, these are their own numbers, have been through treatment programs. So the chance of not making it through alive are about 0.0000001%, about the same chance of getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery. Yet the term is so ingrained into these extremists' minds that they don't see it as funny to refer to themselves this way. I talk to people I went through treatment with regularly, and they also laughed at this term.

Let's experiment a bit. The next time you are talking to a 'survivor', ask them exactly, what did they survive? Ask them how, exactly, they were 'abused', and what they think the term means. Ask them for the full story. If they claim "well, I was restrained once, that's abuse!" ask them what lead up to the restraint. They will most likely leave that part out, and willingly mislead you as to what actually happened. The answer is self incriminating, as are most answers to these inquiries, especially why they were sent to treatment in the first place. If you were to believe fornits extremists, treatment programs are filled with a bunch of innocent good two shoes, with evil parents who scheme to have their child abused. This is as absurd as it sounds, yet the people here believe it.

But let's take it further. Ask them why they think programs exist, and you might get a long winded conspiracy theory about how the Reagan and Bush schemed to get them placed into treatment, and that the 'system' was somehow created to have them placed in treatment programs. This of course, is not true, but they believe it. It's all part of the fornits delusion that they are victims of a powerful force, a force they don't quite understand, but they know it's there. So you get debates about what is this force, how it works, who runs it. Much speculation as to whom they perceive as the grand puppet master of teenage abuse. Go ahead, and ask them. You'll get a good laugh waiting for a response lacking insanity.

The next time you interact with a self called 'survivor', ask them these questions.
1. Why do you call yourself a survivor, what exactly did you survive? How many of your peers were killed during treatment?
2. How were you abused, exactly? If you were abused by the legal definition, why didn't you call police once you got out?
3. How were you acting prior to your parents seeking help, what did you do to deserve being placed in treatment?

The answers will be dishonest, of course. But reading through the obvious mistruths in the response can help you gain understanding into the self victimizing mythology that fornits posters have created for themselves. Take notice of how many posters here are claiming they were actually abused in a treatment program, I can count them on one hand. This core group of extremists has their own fornits cult with leaders and everything, and has convinced a few gullible people who never were in treatment to believe that programs are truly evil. These foot soldiers of the cult have a distorted view of treatment programs, all their knowledge of what treatment is like comes from the mythology and mistruths created on this forum.

Their agenda is simple, to discredit all treatment options from parents seeking help. They go into a frenzy when a parent comes asking for advice, posting lies after lies about treatment programs, and claiming any teen placed in treatment will be abused, brainwashed or even murdered. They show no restraint in presenting this mythology, despite it being false, to these parents all to further their agenda. To them keeping a troubled kid from receiving help is a victory. Think about that for a second, preventing a teen from getting help is a victory to them. This is the result of group think and a deep reservoir of hatred that exists on this site. They must create targets and enemies to focus this hatred outwards, to prevent themselves from imploding. Because ultimately, this hatred will be released whether it's directed toward programs or not, and that is also evident on this forum. This is why they have posters who herd the sheep into hating certain programs. That's how you get people who never went to a treatment center claiming it is abusive or should be shut down, when in truth they have no knowledge of what it's truly like there.

So if you found this forum and are wondering why it seems like programs are evil, you have to realize this is a false impression forced upon you by the myths created on this forum by people with an agenda to discredit all treatment options for adolescents. That's why when you ask them for an alternative, they tell the teenage kid to just run away, your parents are evil and you're better off living on the street. This is not about caring about teens, it's about winning an intellectual battle. This is a battle they cannot win, and they know it. They just want to get a few gullible parents to keep their kid from getting help, and call it a victory. Then they can go to bed feeling that 'they made a difference'. This forum is filled with extremists who have a disturbing agenda, to prevent teens from receiving the help they need and even want. Don't fall for the hype. The 99.9% of us who went through treatment made it through just fine, and are better off because of it. We were not abused, and do not refer to ourselves as 'survivors'. This is a fornits phenomenon of extremism and that's why so few people post here. Just thought I'd give you a heads up to the lies you are about to be inundated with.

Well my friend, you have out done yourself with this post, Bravo!!!!!!
I get so sidetracked here that I never could have put this together. Thank you for your perseverance and dedication to your beliefs. There are many here who agree and applaud your statement of truth here.
I can only hope that the folks this is meant to be directed at, read it with objectivity. Think about this.
This is the direction fornits is taking whether you see it or not.
Where is the balance, are you that threatened by difference of opinions.
Thanks "Suck It"

P.S. My response to this post was not meant to grind any ones face into it, I was expressing my truth.

[Yael Eshet Khever]

SUCK IT:

I have a few questions: do you concede that abuse does happen in certain programs? Do you concede that places such as, say, Tranquility Bay, where abuse has been well-documented (although not yet proven in court), are indeed abusive? Or do you consider all programs to be non-abusive until proven otherwise by a court of law?

A lot of the abuse claimed here by members involves psychological abuse, a tearing down of one's identity by use of humiliation, isolation from the outside world (restriction of communication w/ parents by forbidding certain types of communication such as regular phone calls or visitation, for example) attack "therapy", and Synanon-descendent methods. Do you consider that non-abusive as well?

[Froderik]

I was in a treatment program that is commonly discussed here, yes. I am driven to counter what I view as bullshit, and laughable extremism. I don't refer to myself as a 'survivor', for instance, because I don't know anyone I went through treatment with who didn't survive it. So with a 100% survival rate, what sense would it make for me to call myself this? It's things like this that cause me to conclude that fornits extremism is the result of group think, and this group helps support each other's delusions. I refuse to accept the fornits mythology of what treatment programs are like, just because a group of hostile posters suggest I am full of shit. I draw my conclusions based on my own experience not what other people say. thanks for asking

I can understand thinking about the whole thing this way, especially if you were fortunate enough to have been in a "kinder, gentler" type of place...and even if you weren't, I can still (sort of) understand; sometimes it can take a while for the memories to resurface... Given these possibilities, I try not to fault people who have this sort of take on things...but you should realize that abuse still happens in places today, and it's not just something that can be relegated to yesterday, so to speak (I think you are on the same page, at least here.)

At first the word "survivor" would chap my ass a little, I'll admit it! And I was in a goddamed hellhole of a place, yet it bothered me! There were suicides that can without a doubt be attributed to having been there...not to mention plenty of other horrible accounts of abuse that went on in the place. Eventually the memories kept coming back to remind me; there was stuff I witnessed in there that never should have went on. But for twenty years I didn't even want to think about the place, or associate with people I knew from there. It was just an embarrassment to me; the place was not in my home town, and I didn't like to talk about it much. I just wanted to forget..and did what I could to bury any recollection of it. But then I looked on the internet one night, and the rest is what it is.

[Anne Bonney]

I'll accept your pity as a result of your own experience and keep it in my toolbox. Manne I am not looking to discredit anyone who is telling the truth. You were mistreated in a program 30 years ago, that is long out of business? Ok. What relevance does this have on new treatment programs opening up?

Because it hasn't really closed.....just changed names - again.  It's now the DFAF, Drug Free America Foundation and they have a large presence in the TTI (Betty Sembler is constantly bragging about the "12 thousand kids she's saved") and a fair amount of influence over policy.  Those people, especially Betty Sembler and Calvina Fay, have NO business having anything to do with children or policy about how they're dealt with.


 

How can you take a single experience decades ago, and apply it to all treatment programs, that you know nothing about?

You're assuming I know nothing about them.  I've visited a few of them and done tons of research, spoken to survivors, spoken to staff members who are "true believers" in what they do.  I've found that many of the programs use the same type of "attack/confrontational therapy", use the level systems and force them to participate in LGAT-type sessions that can be extremely intense, that were used on me back at Straight.  That's not something to be taken lightly or facilitated by non-professionals.  I don't think it should be used on children at all, but especially in this kind of setting.

Let's say we accept everything on fornits as fact. So a small percentage, a very slim minority of kids who went to treatment are unhappy about it, and claim they were abused.

Well, I would disagree with your assessment of a "slim minority".  I think it's a slim minority of kids that actually do need to be removed from the home and even then, it needs to be done by professionals with methods that have been proven to be effective.

So we should shut down the entire industry?

The ones that use the LGATs and attack therapy?  Yes.  Absolutely.

We should throw stones at new programs that are actually attempting to improve the options available for troubled teens?

I've yet to see any that are improving in any real, meaningful sense.  I believe they're just getting better at marketing themselves, with the help of people like Whooter.  He's the master of spin.

This is what fornits is all about. Taking a few select experiences and using it to generalize about the entire industry.

No, it's not.  Not at all.   It's a place where we can all come and talk about what happened to us or the industry in general.  It's also the ONLY place that doesn't censor posts.  Lon Woodbury et al wouldn't DARE allow any criticism of their programs, even if they were presented in a polite manner.  They know all too well that it/they wouldn't be able to withstand the scrutiny so they just don't allow any criticism at all.

 

One kids is too many! I can here the extremist claiming, well what we don't hear about is the kid who stayed at home and hung themselves in the closet.

Yes, that happens sometimes.  It's a sad fact of life, but some people don't make it.  It still doesn't justify what's being done to these kids behind closed doors.  It doesn't justify all that goes on that the parents have no idea about.

The truth is some teens need help, and the options available today are safe and effective, and very much not abusive.

Sure, true help with real professionals.

Write a book about your experience, but don't jump to the conclusion that just because you had a negative experience, therefore every other teen will, in every program, until the end of time. This is the conclusion that makes fornits posters extreme.

It's not that.....it's the commonality that we see in so many of the programs.  What kids are describing today could have been written by any one of us 'old timers' years ago.  Again, from where I'm standing not much has changed except the marketing has gotten much, much better.

On the other hand you have ed consultants, who also acknowledge the good and bad in the industry, and help parents make the decision which option might be best for their kid. What is wrong with this?

They get paid per kid.  That's a pretty big incentive to send a kid off even if he doesn't really need help.

 

These people are 'professionals' and yet are attacked here as if they are evil for making this distinction between good programs and not so good.

Professionals???  What credentials do they have?  And not a self-governing, pay to get on the list 'oversight' board such as NATSAP either.  What real credentials do they have?

Whooter is similarly hated here for making this very logical, and accurate assumption.

Whooter is 'hated' (I don't hate him...I intensely dislike him) because he's a pompous ass and a sanctimonious, self righteous prick.....not because of his opinions.  He's admitted to posting under multiple names and, I believe, he makes his living off of shipping kids off to camps.

It is a fact that most kids who go through treatment will never be abused, mistreated, or killed.

A "fact"?  Are you sure you understand the definition of the word fact?

Yet in a thread recently about a teen being sent away, the posters here made every attempt to scare the parent using this misinformation on a program nobody here knows anything about.

I missed that....can you give me a link and I'll go look?

You can spend hours staring at a website and realize that is is evil?  No, that's not possible.

Who said it was?

It's better for parents to seek help from a professional EdCon than come here, this is a conclusion based on common sense.

I'd still like to know what credentials these "professional" EdCons have and if I was a parent, I'd damn sure want to hear what other kids who have been thru the program I was considering and how they felt about the experience.

If the people here could look at this issue with an open mind they would realize this as well.

The same could be said to/about you.

It's myths and generalizations that lead to the incorrect conclusion that is necessary to become so deluded, and that is precisely what the fornits cult believes.

"Fornits" doesn't believe anything.  It's a website and I'd be willing to bet that even among those of us that think these programs are dangerous don't agree on everything.

That's why I call it a cult, because it's a conclusion that is illogical, based on emotion and just plain not true. Yet here people believe it, and this core group support each other in this delusion, just like a cult. I know I'm not the only one who sees this, open your mind people.

Back at ya.....go look at cult characteristics with an open mind.  You might just be surprised to find many, many, many of the same tactics used in programs.

[Froderik]

It's also the ONLY place that doesn't censor posts. Lon Woodbury et al wouldn't DARE allow any criticism of their programs, even if they were presented in a polite manner.

:nods: And who would expect them to allow any criticism if they can delete the posts? Not me. Programs like the WWASP programs, etc. are built on lies and controlling what is said about them. "No newcomers talking to newcomers."

[Paul St. John]

Last, why does "suckit," "STATE" the point so much because no one here wants to "DEBATE" it.

Firstly, I think there are many people here, who consistently debate ideas such as Suck IT's, your's, and Whooter's.

Secondly, I myself have quite few times responded to "Suck It's" well-written posts.  He does not reply.  

Debating with Whooter is like debating with a ghost. He so damn tricky- no debate ever stays on track.  It gets so tiresome, that it doesn t even seem worth it to call him on his shit.

and you.. well you re just a whole another story.

I would love to see any of you stick an actual debate out.


Paul