Author Topic: 12 steps  (Read 11945 times)

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Offline jeff cooper

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2010, 12:50:15 AM »
welcome to my world..........
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Offline Fnord

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2010, 12:53:26 AM »
Maybe DannyB is a genus master mind that really hates AA and wants to give it a bad name by having it associated with his fucktard posts
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Offline jeff cooper

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2010, 12:55:07 AM »
Quote from: "Fnord"
Maybe DannyB is a genus master mind that really hates AA and wants to give it a bad name by having it associated with his fucktard posts
maybe     Danny boy is just a fuck head........... i'm baaaaaaaack
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Offline Fnord

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2010, 12:58:20 AM »
Were you his sponsor? Do you know why god hath forsaken him? Did he do steps wrong or trip and fall down some?
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Offline reformed12stepper

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2010, 02:09:47 AM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Reform wrote
danny
 i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.

Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
I dont really know what your issue is or why you are so defensive. How exactly have i been kicking your ass? If you read my post you would see that i had read the book during my time in 12 steps, but i have no desire to reread it for the purposes of this discussion. I should add that you have not kept your contempt to yourself or any of the discussion but i am curious as to why? why does any criticism of aa make you so mad that you call people assholes when they are critical? Why have you travelled the world only to go to meetings in every country? because that is more following a religion than using a self help tool. why would you hold people who don't spend hours pouring over bills bloddy big book in contempt? Why do you demand that perfect strangers from the internet get honest with you? Surely if the 12 steps were nothing more than a self help organization you would have a little less personally invested.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DannyB II

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2010, 09:32:42 AM »
Quote from: "reformed12stepper"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Reform wrote
danny
 i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.

Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
I dont really know what your issue is or why you are so defensive. How exactly have i been kicking your ass? If you read my post you would see that i had read the book during my time in 12 steps, but i have no desire to reread it for the purposes of this discussion. I should add that you have not kept your contempt to yourself or any of the discussion but i am curious as to why? why does any criticism of aa make you so mad that you call people assholes when they are critical? Why have you travelled the world only to go to meetings in every country? because that is more following a religion than using a self help tool. why would you hold people who don't spend hours pouring over bills bloddy big book in contempt? Why do you demand that perfect strangers from the internet get honest with you? Surely if the 12 steps were nothing more than a self help organization you would have a little less personally invested.

Ya know why your a asshole because you waste peoples time, that's why. You talk in circles and make absolutely no sense at all. I don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass, please read this carefully, it is not about whether I or you like AA, it is about finding someone that can quote at least one genuine experience. Who understands what is in the book and can quote it accurately. Not take what people are saying then say, "this is what AA stands for".
But hey, what the fuck do I know.

Last note there, "bloody good show",
Why would you get on a world wide web and give a opinion and share your experience about AA, when 1) you never read the Book and 2) have a total of 5 people you met in AA as your experience and you base your experience on their characters.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

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« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2010, 09:42:46 AM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:20:59 PM by Joel »

Offline reformed12stepper

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2010, 09:52:37 AM »
whose time am i wasting here? it is an internet forum. What do you think my apparently inadequately informed opinion is somehow preventing you from solving the problems of the world? And what would you propose anyone do to gain adequate enough experience of an organization to in your opinion speak? Should i go to a meeting in every country and every town i visit? Read the big book cover to cover a million times over so that i can quote it like the bible? even though i have stated 3 times now that i read it when i first attended and there was a disconnect between it and what went on at the meeting, lets say for arguments sake that i didnt read it. Why does this inspire irrational levels of rage in you?
All anyone on an internet forum does is offer their own opinion based on their own experience. tThis is what I have done. I am sorry that it has sent you over the deep end. :cheers:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DannyB II

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2010, 09:53:54 AM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Danny if you don't relax you're going to have a heart attack.  I think you're taking replies in this thread to serious.

I already know all I need to know about your employment at Eckard, in Rhode Island.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

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« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2010, 10:18:58 AM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:21:29 PM by Joel »

Offline justonemore

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2010, 06:27:12 AM »
Grateful for the posts by 'reformed'. Gonna weigh in here. At the moment, I'm muddy, bloody, poorer, tired and happy. just come back from fishing (really river-cats are hunting, and no I ain't telling where or how) Staying for a few days in a cheap motel, got a steak on the grill feet on the rail, need a shave and long hot shower, mid way to moderately drunk.My hands are near black with powder.
What I have found among "twelve steps" ( like most everyone, in the seventies and early eighties I was a crime in progress, so i've had my share of dogma, seen my share of 'twelves'.)
In my experience A) Twelves are group oriented. Trust the group, they are wiser than I. ... Not to put too keen an edge on it, but that's a distributive intelligence kind of thing, and Insects have functioned that way for a long, long time. Just ain't me.
B) There is a real dependence on 'twelve' dogma, no less than many Christian literalists, and the same rage when dogma is questioned.
C) 'Twelves are prone to manipulative gaming, following the need for consensus, for group think is overriding. Often at the expense of 'ordinary morals, ethics or compassion.
D) As population pressure drives more and more to the 'hive ethos', I only see the proliferation of the groups, in myriad form. ( Hate to be such a mary-sunshine on the issue, but i ain't optimistic) Antidote? I'll quote Stripe  "Tell the Truth"
J.O.M.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline reformed12stepper

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2010, 07:28:03 AM »
Ive never gotten the hang of fishing. Every other male in my family is into it though. My solitary manly activity is surfing. It always makes me feel more flinty eyed and steve erwinesque.  
I think i get why the group thing is attractive, there is something within us that makes everyone want to flock toward people like us or to rally around a common cause. It is why if you go to a dinner party around election time the room becomes divided pretty quickly. Ive always been a bit of a pack animal myself. It is probably the logic that makes well meaning friends recommend 12 step like programs to people in the first place.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2010, 11:12:13 AM »
Quote from: "reformed12stepper"
Ive never gotten the hang of fishing. Every other male in my family is into it though. My solitary manly activity is surfing. It always makes me feel more flinty eyed and steve erwinesque.  
I think i get why the group thing is attractive, there is something within us that makes everyone want to flock toward people like us or to rally around a common cause. It is why if you go to a dinner party around election time the room becomes divided pretty quickly. Ive always been a bit of a pack animal myself. It is probably the logic that makes well meaning friends recommend 12 step like programs to people in the first place.


That's one of the aspects of AA that I don't have a problem with at all.  If it's used as a support group....people who are trying to quit drinking, hanging out with others who either have quit or are trying is great!  The 12 Steps, Big Book, 12 & 12, Sponsors etc. are what I have a problem with.  To me, they teach powerlessness, which I don't believe is true....no one is powerless over picking up a drink.  They might become powerless over their actions AFTER they start drinking, but nobody's powerless over having a drink or not.

The tenets also, IMO, teach that the 'self' is not to be trusted.  It teaches that one's will is to be turned over to someone (sponsor, group) or something.  I've watched numerous sponsors destroy marriages because they felt that the spouse wasn't supportive enough of AA and therefore a 'threat' to the sponsees sobriety.  I've watched numerous sponsors advise sponsees to go off their prescribed medication because the sponsor deems it a 'threat' to sobriety.  I've watched numerous incidents of "13th stepping"......guys preying on vulnerable newcomer girls, further damaging their already fragile self esteem.

A group that gathers to support each other in their efforts to quit drinking is fine....but to tell them that they're "signing their own death warrant" if they leave 'the rooms' is deplorable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Ursus

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Re: 12 steps
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2010, 12:09:53 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "reformed12stepper"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Reform wrote
danny
 i am not sure what you mean here. It seems you are suggesting i think there is some kind of aa conspiracy. I never said that. What i did say is that for the average person 12 steps is what they think of when they think of help for addiction. Most people are not aware of the other options. I also found that there was an attitude toward those who rejected aa of them being in denial. this is unhelpful as there are many ways to approach addiction. I suggest you ook at a book called recovery options. It looks at several ways to treat addiction.
I also am not getting my information from an "sick fucks" I am merely posting my own view and expereince of aa and its flaws. I have already said now on several occasions that i am not comaring it to most of the places posted about on this board.
Perhaps if i reread the big book more closely i would understand your viewpoint more. But frankly I dont want to because i dont have any use for it. Just like i am sure if i read the koran more i could argue more about the relative merits of islam. But i dont have the desire.
Ya know for 2 days I've been getting my ass kicked because I felt we were having a intelligent conversation about AA, that you had read the book and had genuinely experienced the program.
I don't care if you had liked AA or not, it was never about that.
Now you finally come forward and get honest (with a bogus excuse) and tell me you have not read shit, that you really have no idea what you talking about and that you just listen to everyone else.
I have nothing more except contempt, which I will keep to myself.
As I have said before, I am happy for you that you found a way to get off coke. Please let it remain this way.
Enjoy your life. It is the only one you have.
I dont really know what your issue is or why you are so defensive. How exactly have i been kicking your ass? If you read my post you would see that i had read the book during my time in 12 steps, but i have no desire to reread it for the purposes of this discussion. I should add that you have not kept your contempt to yourself or any of the discussion but i am curious as to why? why does any criticism of aa make you so mad that you call people assholes when they are critical? Why have you travelled the world only to go to meetings in every country? because that is more following a religion than using a self help tool. why would you hold people who don't spend hours pouring over bills bloddy big book in contempt? Why do you demand that perfect strangers from the internet get honest with you? Surely if the 12 steps were nothing more than a self help organization you would have a little less personally invested.
Ya know why your a asshole because you waste peoples time, that's why. You talk in circles and make absolutely no sense at all. I don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass, please read this carefully, it is not about whether I or you like AA, it is about finding someone that can quote at least one genuine experience. Who understands what is in the book and can quote it accurately. Not take what people are saying then say, "this is what AA stands for".
But hey, what the fuck do I know.

Last note there, "bloody good show",
Why would you get on a world wide web and give a opinion and share your experience about AA, when 1) you never read the Book and 2) have a total of 5 people you met in AA as your experience and you base your experience on their characters.
Who determines whether or not someone "understands what is in the book," and whether or not they "can quote at least one genuine experience," and whether or not they "can quote it accurately?"

And why, if you "don't care That Much For AA, you dumbass," would you even bother yourself with whether or not someone does or does not "understand?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Joel

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« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2010, 12:14:34 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:39:06 PM by Joel »