hierarchy and conscience an abstruse concept.

[justonemore]

I write this for several reasons, but mostly I'm prompted to because of the ongoing, puerile exchange between 'program' and 'not program'.
In all societies, indeed for society to form at all, there is hierarchy. Hierarchy is no more than the search for order, so necessary because life does not thrive in chaos.
A significant difference between 'program' and 'not program' is an in-ability to accept natural hierarchy.ie;
program people seem to uniformly believe themselves superior by virtue of program or dogma participation, and for no other reason. (this is a by -and-large judgement,by no means definitive) not program seem to recognize that natural hierarchies exist, and are the norm, ie; that some people are better at some things and others at other things. having had some experience at command, in different venue, different mission, I've noticed that  it's best to allow people to 'sort themselves out' Some men are riflemen, some medics, some miners, some theives. Very few saints in the bunch.
Given a group of men to command, I found that they were themselves the best judge of mission parameters, mission requirement. My job was simply to maintain objective and command and control. If I let 'em and helped 'em, they'd get 'er done. Program people seem not to have this view. They seem idealogy driven and not reality driven. They seem driven by process and not by result.
I think of B.F. Skinner's "Beyond Freedom and Dignity", the difference between a 'pack' ethos and a 'hive' ethos.
As, for me, I'm a redneck and thus a 'pack' animal, and as it's not necessary for me to change, I won't.
J.O.M.

[Froderik]

I've noticed that it's best to allow people to 'sort themselves out' Some men are riflemen, some medics, some miners, some theives. Very few saints in the bunch.
Given a group of men to command, I found that they were themselves the best judge of mission parameters, mission requirement. My job was simply to maintain objective and command and control. If I let 'em and helped 'em, they'd get 'er done. Program people seem not to have this view. They seem ideology driven and not reality driven. They seem driven by process and not by result.
I think of B.F. Skinner's "Beyond Freedom and Dignity", the difference between a 'pack' ethos and a 'hive' ethos.
As, for me, I'm a redneck and thus a 'pack' animal, and as it's not necessary for me to change, I won't.

I think you are right on about that, about letting people sort themselves out...letting them and helping them get it...not merely telling them! Telling them is of the ideologically-driven hive mentality; this fails miserably when it comes to allowing for the fact that people are individuals, not ants or bees. "A good leader must first learn to be a good follower." Not to say a mindless sheep, but a person who seeks true understanding about a situation.

You can sense it. You can sense a "teller" as opposed to a listener, someone who listens before doling out orders. I get immediately distrustful of anyone who comes off like a "teller." I smell bullshit right away, and either recede and get away from them, or flat out tell them they don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Can't live with this type of person, no way no how.

Better a pack animal than a hive animal, for sure... but even better a lone wolf, eh?

Anyway, thanks for the post, J.O.M... you sure are one smart redneck..  :seg:

[Antigen]

I have a sort of allergic response to that same bullshit. This makes it very difficult for me to keep a job because I'm often plain out incapable of stifling my responses.

[Froderik]

I have a sort of allergic response to that same bullshit. This makes it very difficult for me to keep a job because I'm often plain out incapable of stifling my responses.

Job, or just about any kind of relationship... welcome to my world.

[DannyB II]

I write this for several reasons, but mostly I'm prompted to because of the ongoing, puerile exchange between 'program' and 'not program'.
In all societies, indeed for society to form at all, there is hierarchy. Hierarchy is no more than the search for order, so necessary because life does not thrive in chaos.
A significant difference between 'program' and 'not program' is an in-ability to accept natural hierarchy.ie;
program people seem to uniformly believe themselves superior by virtue of program or dogma participation, and for no other reason. (this is a by -and-large judgement,by no means definitive) not program seem to recognize that natural hierarchies exist, and are the norm, ie; that some people are better at some things and others at other things. having had some experience at command, in different venue, different mission, I've noticed that  it's best to allow people to 'sort themselves out' Some men are riflemen, some medics, some miners, some theives. Very few saints in the bunch.
Given a group of men to command, I found that they were themselves the best judge of mission parameters, mission requirement. My job was simply to maintain objective and command and control. If I let 'em and helped 'em, they'd get 'er done. Program people seem not to have this view. They seem idealogy driven and not reality driven. They seem driven by process and not by result.
I think of B.F. Skinner's "Beyond Freedom and Dignity", the difference between a 'pack' ethos and a 'hive' ethos.
As, for me, I'm a redneck and thus a 'pack' animal, and as it's not necessary for me to change, I won't.
J.O.M.

My man I don't know what they put in the water down there but keep drinking. This is one of the best analogies of the "program experiece" I've read in some time.
thanks

danny

[Ursus]

Better a pack animal than a hive animal, for sure... but even better a lone wolf, eh?

A-yuh!  :rocker:

[DannyB II]

I have a sort of allergic response to that same bullshit. This makes it very difficult for me to keep a job because I'm often plain out incapable of stifling my responses.

I said fuck it and started my own business....still work for folks but have more latitude.
Allergic reaction, ya that would be a understatement for my full body response.
I can relate to your experiences, Antigen.
I found I vacillate between the types. I also found that most program people to one degree or another are rebellious. It is a natural state which my life runs through.

danny

[Antigen]

I was raised by wolves in the Twilight Zone

[Che Gookin]

I moved to Asia, the natives don't have much of a frame of reference to be able to tell if I'm abnormal or just another psycho foreigner who likes giving people wedgies on the bus.

[Froderik]

Better a pack animal than a hive animal, for sure... but even better a lone wolf, eh?

A-yuh!  :rocker:

Or in your case, lone bear?

[justonemore]

Thank Y'all for the compliments, i'm grateful... As soon as I get more whiskey, and a few more rounds, I'll expand on the concept..May seem a little abstruse (not to mention oblique and occult, but what the hey, I'm nothing If not dense and tangential in my thinking !)
i do think it important, thanks for considering it.
J.O.M.
P.S. Samara? you out there? Wanna go oppress some folks later, and maybe foster corruption?

[Froderik]

OT, but I still have no idea who Samara is, though she said I met her before (?)

Samara, please feel free to pm me to clue me in if so inclined.  :seg: