honk if you remember the seed

[none-ya]

I remember the seed as hot and dirty

I remember being hungry all the time

I remember being denied bathroom privileges

I remember those hard assed  chairs for 12 hours a day

I remember doing the hokey pokey while people across the street laughed and yelled things

I remember big black Arthur, standing up a 10 year old, yelling "youze a fuckhead"

I remember the "open" meetings

I remember the moral inventories (I never did one from the time I came home)

I remember my friends calling me a narc (yeah right)

I remember the door goons

I remember the bathroom monitors (shit or piss?)

I remember telling myself that I would get away from there as soon as I could

and anyone who's even been 1 meeting would know


WHY DO WE SING FUCKING JINGLE BELLS???!!!

[Johnny G]

We sang it under duress, as an act of conformity, part of a ritual
reasons were stated, but the real reason was simply to get a aroup of people to simultaneously engage in a mindless activity on command
it was a component of conditioning

We now have free will
we sing or not of our own volition

I cannot imagine why you would sing it at all, given the experience you have documented here
you surely have your reasons, while I could speculate, I do not understand them

I choose not to sing jingle bells at all;


In addition to all of the baggage, the mention of snow rubs the whole heat vs humidity arguement in my face, perhaps it is time to look into a summer place in Canada

[none-ya]

Johnny G wrote

We sang it under duress, as an act of conformity, part of a ritual
reasons were stated, but the real reason was simply to get a aroup of people to simultaneously engage in a mindless activity on command
it was a component of conditioning

First you said you knew nothing about jingle bells. Now it only "under duress"?

Johnny g wrote

I spent my time in the truckers shed, or fixing stuff around the building, at barkers house, fixing cars, his boat etc.
Didn't spend a whole lot of time in the group after year 1. was never thought of or referred to as staff;


They left you alone a Barkers house? Fixing his car. And you never cut his brake lines? Please tell me you at least shit on his toothbrush. How much duress were you under to be Barkers houseboy?

Johnny G wrote

Lived in a house with 10 people, like I said, cheap!
Fairly institutional, with no newcomers, things were pretty open, got pretty good at chess, had a decent job, constant sense that it could all go away at any moment;

It really sounds liked it there. Again where's the duress?

Johnny G wrote

At the outset I thought that the folks doing my intake had it together more than I did and they had 5 years in so I decided I could go that long.

So you had admiration for those criminals from day 1?

BTW - you seem pretty high strung for such a laid back avatar,

And your answers have all the substance of yours

These are words only seedling woud know and nobody does?
Antigen or Stack, please help this guy out.

[none-ya]

back to the top you go

[Johnny G]

You spent a few months inconvienienced and you know everything there was/is to know about it?

Then you don't need me to tell you anything

Jr. Staff on bathroom duty?
In the context of seed of 1978, that didn't happen - we didn't even have bathroom monitors;
Didn't have "door goons" either, most were kids
very different world

However, I recognize that things were quite different in the early 1970s, and were  certainly different when I left than when I came in

It is my understanding that it was very different in 1990

Don't put me into the context of tropical park, st pete, or the blimp hangar - I wasn't there
I was in cleveland in 1978, and left from Sr. 84 in '83 - the seed was on hold, just muddling thru government funds gone, trying to compete with mel sembler for the private market.

We were on 10 - 6 (5 days after 79 or 80)
small group - tiny (dozen or so) during the week
yes charlotte, we sang jingle bells

That is the seed I remember

Lots of people told of the "old days"
10 to 10
hundreds of people
a front row several rows deep

Never experienced that

We didn't even have open meetings after my first year or so;
It was metamorphosing into a cult;

[none-ya]

Yeah right. Barker must have been a real nice guy by then.
A kinder gentler seed. No wonder you stayed 5 years by choice.
Sounds like you had nowhere to go.
Lucky bastard.
And by the way, the jingle bells thing came from Barker himself.
He let you watch his house, but never shared that with you?
Your story dosen't jive.

Are there any other ex seed kids out there?

[Ursus]

Because every day that you're "straight," it's like Christmas?  :seg:

[none-ya]

Finaly, it took someone from another program (I think) to get it.
At the end of every meeting, every night, the rap leader would put forth the question
Why do we sing jingle bells? And the place would go crazy with people snapping their fingers, jumping out of their seats,
and begging to yell the following,
"CAUSE EVERY DAY WE'RE STRAIGHT, IT'S LIKE CHRISTMAS!!!
i still hate christmas. And even now when I hear that song during the hollidays, I still want to puke.
May Art barker die in a pile of his own shit. (or somebody elses)

[Johnny G]

"CAUSE EVERY DAY WE'RE STRAIGHT, IT'S LIKE CHRISTMAS!!!

I'm happy you feel that way

[none-ya]

Dear Barkers houseboy
You're an idiot! Or maybe  you suffer from aspergers in wich case sarcasm is meaningless to you.
None of your answers about the seed really jived. I've talked to people from Cleveland and south Fl. (not that different at all).
So I asked you that question over and over again because it's somthing any newcomer could answer. Yet you couldn't!
Even Ursus knew, and I don't believe he was ever at the seed. But after 5 years you had no idea what I was talking about?
Sarcasm aside,
I HATE CHRISTMAS,

I HATE JINGLES BELLS

I HATE THE SEED , AND ALL OF THOSE WHO DEFEND IT!
 Tell me. Do you still do you moral inventories? Or have you not heard of them either?

[Johnny G]

You are certainly entitled to sing jingle bells as often as you like, and do all the moral inventories you want;

you can live in whatever reality you choose

I don't believe you talked to anyone from Cleveland - and definitely not anyone who was there when Cleveland closed and moved to SR-84 (1978);

I, on the other hand, have talked to people who were at tropical park, St. pete, Blimp hangar, Andrews Ave (they were there when I was there - 5 years wasn't unusual - several were around for 10+ when I left) and from those conversations it is evident that, Yes, the program did change over time, but -as you have stated- you weren't there very long so you wouldn't have experienced that.

[none-ya]

Johnny G wroteReport this postReply with quoteCleveland Seed Revisited
by Johnny G » 25 Jan 2006, 22:52

I have real vague memories of the Cleveland Seed, guess I was still trying to figure the whole thing out when we up and left for SR84.

THe strongest memories I have are the people there (I have some faces and names, only a few that match up).

I had voluntarily put myself in, I had some legal trouble so it was there or a mental hospital lest I go to prison (I told myself this before I heard of the Seed, so when it was put out there as an option, I took it - obviously I didn't need to be sold on the deadorinjail line)

I wonder what happend to the guys left behind (I was told not to talk to them after we moved). The guys who I thought could get me on the right track Paul T (and his sister Jackie...) john G (from Canada), Bobby B, Jeff P, Phil and Scott P.
o kids that were in the
I really feel bad for Eric (the boxer) and his whole family - they bought into it enough to move to Ft. Lauderdale, take home newcomers, and then get abandoned - thrown out - one day. I know it happened, but never knew anything about why.

I guess the lucky ones were the underage kids who were summarily graduated just because the program was splitting town, they didn't get sucked in the way many of us 80's folks did.

enough rambling for now - let's get together for your beverage of choice and talk all night - then I will get a lot of this stuff talked out.

Told my mom that I had found this forum, she said she doesn't hate Art any more. [/quote

No kids that were in the seed at all were "lucky"
Remember,your memories are still vague.
You shouldh've listened to your mom.
Sounds like she had some sense.
Too bad it didn't rub off.
You know it's still not too late for you.
There is always the church of scientology.
I hear they're always in need of mindless drones.
Your resume' looks promising

[Johnny G]

it's cool that you can use the search function!

so you didn't need ursus to tell you about jingle bells -

I was in cleveland for a month or so before it closed, so yes, pretty vague

[none-ya]

But I wanted to hear it from you. Ursus never claimed to be from the seed.But he seems to know more about it than you . Barker's houseboy huh? How many people did you have to rat out to get that gig?

[Johnny G]

I am not into call and response, automatically parroting back the right answer to retorical questions ("why do we sing jingle bells?")
Lack of appropriate enthusiasim might impact ones progress thru the program;

You are right, everyone who has been there knows it;

WHy don't you sing a few bars of the seed song (to the tune of greenslleeves) for us? - use the search function, it is out there somewhere buried under all of the crap posted over the last year or so;

You could tell us "the rules" or the "7 steps" -   any Jr. Staff member ought to know that (how many people did you rat out to get that?)

I'll bet there are dozens of silly ass challenges one could lay down as a shibboleth

Sort of ridiculous given the current context

I ratted out no-one