Author Topic: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?  (Read 9323 times)

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Joel

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« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2010, 06:33:35 PM »
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Offline 9403390

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2010, 12:45:40 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Even the deputy conducting the investigation indicated that there is difficulty differentiating between a behavior issue and real symptoms.  I believe when they get down to the root cause that this is what they will find.

When you are dealing with kids who are on a hike voluntarily and a child is complaining of feeling ill and wanting to stop then I believe it would be reacted to more quickly than if a child in a program exhibited the same symptoms and asked to stop.  This is because the staff needs to weigh the behavior issue and try to determine if the child is trying to manipulate the staff or is really sick.  This ends up playing against the childís chances of getting help more quickly.

Hiking groups outside of programs do not have to weigh these options.



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you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be  lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2010, 09:30:08 AM »
Quote from: "9403390"
you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be  lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.

The struggle for staff, as I see it, is how to determine when there is a problem requiring medical help.  If the staff aborted the hike and lead the kids down off the mountain every day to visit the doctors because a kid said he felt ill and it turned out he didnít need a visit then even the doctor would probably ask the program to get the guy some training.

We all know that kids will quickly catch on if they say they donít feel well and then get rewarded with a nice trip into town, with AC and a nap, versus hiking in 90 degree heat.  If we assume that the staff didnít want the kids to die then it goes back to training.



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Offline Ursus

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2010, 01:53:00 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "9403390"
you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be  lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.
The struggle for staff, as I see it, is how to determine when there is a problem requiring medical help.  If the staff aborted the hike and lead the kids down off the mountain every day to visit the doctors because a kid said he felt ill and it turned out he didnít need a visit then even the doctor would probably ask the program to get the guy some training.

We all know that kids will quickly catch on if they say they donít feel well and then get rewarded with a nice trip into town, with AC and a nap, versus hiking in 90 degree heat.  If we assume that the staff didnít want the kids to die then it goes back to training.
The problem with your reasoning, Whooter, is that in real life the "we-all-know" scenario rarely happens. As 9403390 clearly pointed out to you, from the perspective of a former staff member, most kids simply do not behave that way. And *I* can tell you, from my own personal experience, that to behave in such a fashion would never have even occurred to me.

Despite your claim of advising "caution in assuming that all programs take the same approach or attitude that the one posting 'Mr. Manipulation' does," it would appear that you, in fact, embrace that philosophy and mindset wholeheartedly! Are you that jaded and filled with cynicism that you advocate throwing common sense and safety considerations out the window in favor of snuffing out the evil maneuvers of wayward youth?

When you said, "I do know from experience that many kids are manipulative and that is how they get their way and get stuff," were you perchance talking about yourself, once upon a time?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2010, 04:21:17 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
The problem with your reasoning, Whooter, is that in real life the "we-all-know" scenario rarely happens. As 9403390 clearly pointed out to you, from the perspective of a former staff member, most kids simply do not behave that way. And *I* can tell you, from my own personal experience, that to behave in such a fashion would never have even occurred to me.

I have seen things differently.  Even in my own highschool kids would do anything to get out of class, go home sick etc.  Its not all kids, but some do it more than others.  If a highschool had a school nurse who handed out passes to go home every time you said you didnít feel well there would be a line down the hall.

Quote
Despite your claim of advising "caution in assuming that all programs take the same approach or attitude that the one posting 'Mr. Manipulation' does," it would appear that you, in fact, embrace that philosophy and mindset wholeheartedly! Are you that jaded and filled with cynicism that you advocate throwing common sense and safety considerations out the window in favor of snuffing out the evil maneuvers of wayward youth?

I donít see where I advocated throwing common sense and safety out the window.  My point is if you have kids who would rather be someplace else than hiking in the mountains you will probably experience some of them trying to come up with ways to avoid the hike.  A staff would need to be able to differentiate between a child who is sick and one who is not.  Otherwise the hikes would be aborted every day in favor of a trip to the doctor to check out a stomach ache.
The challenge is making the right decision each and every time.

Quote
When you said, "I do know from experience that many kids are manipulative and that is how they get their way and get stuff," were you perchance talking about yourself, once upon a time?

Well, no, I was actually referring to teens that I have known throughout my lifetime.  I never considered myself manipulative, but I guess I must have done my fair share while I was under my parents wing.  Its part of the growing process for kids to try to see how much they can get away with and test the boundaries.  If a kid sees a hole they will exploit it.



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Joel

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Offline 9403390

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2010, 08:15:30 PM »
I think whooter you are anaware of what happens. If a kid got sick the procedure was not to stop the whole hike. We had radio systems and would call in help for that 1 kid. There were enough staff that the other kids would continue with normal activities. While all kids like to push a boundary or 2 you also forget that they are not idiots. They know that a qualified doctor can tell whether they are faking. With this in mind staff are not doctors, so if after giving a kid rest and water and in some occasional cases a pep talk about how great they have done today if they say they are not well, or worse have a high temperature from the outset then surely the common sense thing to would be to get professional help. Surely if you sent your kid away anywhere this is the level of care you would want for them? Afterall  some parents sent their not too badly behaved kid to camp because they found drugs and felt it was better to be safe than sorry. So they expected that you cared about their kid. To me this means erring on the side of caution and looking out for the kid like a parent would. Most parents would call a doctor for their kid.
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Offline Aspen Education Cult

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2010, 01:17:15 AM »
Quote from: "9403390"
I think whooter you are anaware of what happens. If a kid got sick the procedure was not to stop the whole hike. We had radio systems and would call in help for that 1 kid. There were enough staff that the other kids would continue with normal activities. While all kids like to push a boundary or 2 you also forget that they are not idiots. They know that a qualified doctor can tell whether they are faking. With this in mind staff are not doctors, so if after giving a kid rest and water and in some occasional cases a pep talk about how great they have done today if they say they are not well, or worse have a high temperature from the outset then surely the common sense thing to would be to get professional help. Surely if you sent your kid away anywhere this is the level of care you would want for them? Afterall  some parents sent their not too badly behaved kid to camp because they found drugs and felt it was better to be safe than sorry. So they expected that you cared about their kid. To me this means erring on the side of caution and looking out for the kid like a parent would. Most parents would call a doctor for their kid.


After the victims arrived at the gulag site by abduction (or by other means) what methods were you expected to use to force them to march?

Violent assault? (sometimes referred to as restraint) Please describe the methodology expected in the assault and how and when you were advised to use it.

Threats of longer imprisonment? Please describe the language you were expected to use when making these threats

Other threats? Please elaborate on other threats and other punishments you were expected to deliver if the victim refused to submit to forced march and forced imprisonment.


Further:
1)   Contact the sheriffs office investigating Sergyís death.
2)   Contact the journalists investigating the abuse at the Aspen Education Group cult


In my next post I will link to these contacts. Thank you for coming forward. Your compassion, intelligence and bravery is all too rare.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline 9403390

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2010, 02:12:10 AM »
I honestly dont recall having much to do with the intake process. I was a field guy.  I think some kids were strip searched particularly the ones there for drug abuse. To be honest most did not have to be "forced" to hike. You watch things like brat camp and are lead to believe that they are non compliant and super rebellious but most went along pretty much did as they were told. Some were delivered by those escort guys but by the time they got to the camp were pretty calm. Im not saying i condone this practice but just that I cant tell you what the reaction was when they got there. I didnt ask because it seemed like rubbing it in a bit. they knew this wasnt going to be fun. They probably got the lecture from the folks. I saw my job as to try and help them get something out of this so id try to start on a positive note.
I
n terms of restraint I was only there 2 months. I did not ever do a full one although a couple of times I broke up a fight. Usually by the time I had pulled the other guy away he stopped swinging so there was no need to take him down to the ground. When i saw other colleagues do it they would get the kids arm behind his back and the kid would kind of fall to his knees and then be pushed to the ground. Once the kid stopped struggling they let him up. I can think of at least 3 occasions when it looked unnecessary and on one of these the kid was kept on the ground for far too long.
Usually if a kid misbehaved they would be reminded that the more progress they made the less long the stay. Sometimes they would be banned from talking to the other kids or not allowed to have herbs and spices on their food. If they really messed up they would have to do other parts of the program again which meant being there longer.
Sometimes kids would vomit in the first couple of days. in fairness they were not accused of faking but they didn't get the medical attention they needed either. I was told it was normal for kids acclimating. This made sense at the time because i had a nose bleed or 2 myself at first. Doctor friends now tell me that if your body vomits something it is it's way of telling you something is wrong. In hindsight taking any kid that may need to detox from a drug or who is likely to overheat is probably a terrible idea.
What i regret the most was that i mislead some kids. I didnt do it on purpose but still i did it. I was a foreign national that had worked the american summer in a summer camp. I did this twice at the same place I coached rugby and soccer and had a great time but didn't know about this side of the camping industry. Some kids got letters from their parents saying they would go onto boarding school. In the country I am from it is common for rural kids to go to boarding school and I am a country boy who had an awesome time as a boarder. It boosted my confidence a lot, I got to go on sporting exchange to england,  and Im still friends with some of the guys years later.
 So I told most kids that they would have a great time, be able to get their grades up fast, play lots of sports and if the school was coed be surrounded by girls 24/7. I also told them that the positive of going away to school was that if you wanted to reinvent yourself nobody would know that you were a nerd or a stoner or whatever in your previous life. I had no idea of what these boarding schools were like. I thought the kid would see some kind of therapist once a week, go home for holidays and pretty much have a standard boarding school experience. I remember one kid worked his ass off at camp and graduated pretty quickly. He was a great kid who smoked a lot of pot but apart from that was just a good guy. He was devistated when he got the letter saying he was going away to school. He just broke down and cried his eyes out and felt like the whole thing had been totally in vain. I remember telling him that boarding school would be great and that i would kill to go to school in prime skiing country and the  kid saying he didnt think so. I guess the poor kid knew more than i did.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 10:35:16 AM by 9403390 »

Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2010, 10:23:07 AM »
Quote from: "9403390"
I think whooter you are anaware of what happens. If a kid got sick the procedure was not to stop the whole hike. We had radio systems and would call in help for that 1 kid. There were enough staff that the other kids would continue with normal activities. While all kids like to push a boundary or 2 you also forget that they are not idiots. They know that a qualified doctor can tell whether they are faking. With this in mind staff are not doctors, so if after giving a kid rest and water and in some occasional cases a pep talk about how great they have done today if they say they are not well, or worse have a high temperature from the outset then surely the common sense thing to would be to get professional help. Surely if you sent your kid away anywhere this is the level of care you would want for them? Afterall some parents sent their not too badly behaved kid to camp because they found drugs and felt it was better to be safe than sorry. So they expected that you cared about their kid. To me this means erring on the side of caution and looking out for the kid like a parent would. Most parents would call a doctor for their kid.

That is a great way to handle a sick child and also allow the hike to continue.  There was a child who died last year who was kept together with the group.  I wander if they had stopped him and allowed the rest of the group to continue if the outcome would have been different.

Quote
Sometimes kids would vomit in the first couple of days. in fairness they were not accused of faking but they didnt get the medical attention they needed either. I was told it was normal for kids acclimating. This made sense at the time because i had a nose bleed or 2 myself at first. Doctir friends now tell me that if your body vomits something it is it's way of telling you something is wrong. In hindsight taking any kid that may need to detox from a drug or who i likely to overheat is probably a terrible idea.

Typically a person detoxifies through their skin and urine.  But if a person is not use to exercise, has been eating junk, smoking etc. and then moves quickly to a healthier lifestyle then their bodies will detox via vomiting at first.  It sounds like this happens often in wilderness.



...
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Offline 9403390

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2010, 10:46:24 AM »
That's my point. It would have been a good precedure if it was adhered to enough. We had the resources but did not always use them. I am afraid you are just flat out wrong about the symptoms of detox for some drugs. Some drug detox particularly for harder drugs which a few kids were taking involves nausea, vomiting and cramping. If the person is taking it easy and getting plenty of rest and fluid it is like getting over a flu. But if your kid had a bad flu the last thing you would do is make them go hiking and camping. So it doesnt make sense for places like this to take kids who are beginning to withdraw from hard drugs. It is a recipe for disaster.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2010, 11:02:30 AM »
Quote from: "9403390"
That's my point. It would have been a good precedure if it was adhered to enough. We had the resources but did not always use them.

I think consistency is always good.  If there are procedures which are clearly laid out then they need to be followed every time.

Quote
I am afraid you are just flat out wrong about the symptoms of detox for some drugs. Some drug detox particularly for harder drugs which a few kids were taking involves nausea, vomiting and cramping. If the person is taking it easy and getting plenty of rest and fluid it is like getting over a flu. But if your kid had a bad flu the last thing you would do is make them go hiking and camping. So it doesnt make sense for places like this to take kids who are beginning to withdraw from hard drugs. It is a recipe for disaster.

I am not talking about detoxing someone from hard drugs.  When a person detoxs from a unhealthy lifestyle the bodies handles this through the skin and urine and occasionally through vomiting.  If a person is detoxing from an addiction to hard drugs then they need to do this under the supervision of a doctor in a controlled setting.



...
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2010, 05:55:26 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "9403390"
you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be  lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.
The struggle for staff, as I see it, is how to determine when there is a problem requiring medical help.  If the staff aborted the hike and lead the kids down off the mountain every day to visit the doctors because a kid said he felt ill and it turned out he didnít need a visit then even the doctor would probably ask the program to get the guy some training.

We all know that kids will quickly catch on if they say they donít feel well and then get rewarded with a nice trip into town, with AC and a nap, versus hiking in 90 degree heat.  If we assume that the staff didnít want the kids to die then it goes back to training.
The problem with your reasoning, Whooter, is that in real life the "we-all-know" scenario rarely happens. As 9403390 clearly pointed out to you, from the perspective of a former staff member, most kids simply do not behave that way. And *I* can tell you, from my own personal experience, that to behave in such a fashion would never have even occurred to me.

Despite your claim of advising "caution in assuming that all programs take the same approach or attitude that the one posting 'Mr. Manipulation' does," it would appear that you, in fact, embrace that philosophy and mindset wholeheartedly! Are you that jaded and filled with cynicism that you advocate throwing common sense and safety considerations out the window in favor of snuffing out the evil maneuvers of wayward youth?

When you said, "I do know from experience that many kids are manipulative and that is how they get their way and get stuff," were you perchance talking about yourself, once upon a time?


 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Now just let me understand something here while all of you "mother hens" minimize this childs behavior like he just walked out of, "Sainthood Preparatory Divine Academy". Sergey was smoking pot, doing oxy cot, drinking, terrorizing his parents and pretty much doing whatever the hell he wanted to do, per the conversation with his parents. Now did this mean you had to kill him or in anyway abuse him, NO. I just saying lets talk about the right child here, 9403390 is talking about children you have to ask yourself why are they even there then if there so polite and gentile. Children that end up at these facilities are master manipulators and everyone knows that from our own experiences, "this does not mean they should be abused" yet you have to deal with it.

Danny
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Offline Anti-Troll

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2010, 08:00:39 PM »
Quote
Now just let me understand something here while all of you "mother hens" minimize this childs behavior like he just walked out of, "Sainthood Preparatory Divine Academy". Sergey was smoking pot, doing oxy cot, drinking, terrorizing his parents and pretty much doing whatever the hell he wanted to do, per the conversation with his parents. Now did this mean you had to kill him or in anyway abuse him, NO. I just saying lets talk about the right child here, 9403390 is talking about children you have to ask yourself why are they even there then if there so polite and gentile. Children that end up at these facilities are master manipulators and everyone knows that from our own experiences, "this does not mean they should be abused" yet you have to deal with it.

Smells Like Staff......
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #74 on: April 10, 2010, 08:40:52 PM »
Quote from: "Anti-Troll"
Quote
Now just let me understand something here while all of you "mother hens" minimize this childs behavior like he just walked out of, "Sainthood Preparatory Divine Academy". Sergey was smoking pot, doing oxy cot, drinking, terrorizing his parents and pretty much doing whatever the hell he wanted to do, per the conversation with his parents. Now did this mean you had to kill him or in anyway abuse him, NO. I just saying lets talk about the right child here, 9403390 is talking about children you have to ask yourself why are they even there then if there so polite and gentile. Children that end up at these facilities are master manipulators and everyone knows that from our own experiences, "this does not mean they should be abused" yet you have to deal with it.

Smells Like Staff......

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for noticing.
Danny
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