Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Aspen Education Group
How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
Joel:
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
9403390:
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---Even the deputy conducting the investigation indicated that there is difficulty differentiating between a behavior issue and real symptoms. I believe when they get down to the root cause that this is what they will find.
When you are dealing with kids who are on a hike voluntarily and a child is complaining of feeling ill and wanting to stop then I believe it would be reacted to more quickly than if a child in a program exhibited the same symptoms and asked to stop. This is because the staff needs to weigh the behavior issue and try to determine if the child is trying to manipulate the staff or is really sick. This ends up playing against the child’s chances of getting help more quickly.
Hiking groups outside of programs do not have to weigh these options.
...
--- End quote ---
you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "9403390" ---you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.
--- End quote ---
The struggle for staff, as I see it, is how to determine when there is a problem requiring medical help. If the staff aborted the hike and lead the kids down off the mountain every day to visit the doctors because a kid said he felt ill and it turned out he didn’t need a visit then even the doctor would probably ask the program to get the guy some training.
We all know that kids will quickly catch on if they say they don’t feel well and then get rewarded with a nice trip into town, with AC and a nap, versus hiking in 90 degree heat. If we assume that the staff didn’t want the kids to die then it goes back to training.
...
Ursus:
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "9403390" ---you know one thing that surprised me was how normally most kids acted compared to what Id been told they behaved like. Most of them arrived pretty compliant and tried to do what you asked them. Some were a little mouthy or tried to act tough at first but then dont most kids when they are new to a situation? Some had real issues like ADD or something but they were more likely to get in trouble for just playing stupid pranks or not paying attention than faking. The kids there for drugs or behaving badly at home were actually pretty well behaved most of the time. I can see why you'd imagine there would be lot of faking but you need to understand that the hikes are pretty tough for an adult in good shape. If you are a fat kid, or your lungs are in bad shape from smoking a lot of drugs or you are just out of shape then it is pretty uncomfortable. So maybe some kids just dont know what it is like to excercise strenuously when out of shape but even if this is the case when they say they feel lousy its not faking, the probably do. Some of those kids would genuinely feel better after rest and water, but occasionally a kid wouldnt. Isnt it more logical to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and use the radio to get help? if they are faking a dr would sort it out, if not their life has been saved.
--- End quote ---
The struggle for staff, as I see it, is how to determine when there is a problem requiring medical help. If the staff aborted the hike and lead the kids down off the mountain every day to visit the doctors because a kid said he felt ill and it turned out he didn’t need a visit then even the doctor would probably ask the program to get the guy some training.
We all know that kids will quickly catch on if they say they don’t feel well and then get rewarded with a nice trip into town, with AC and a nap, versus hiking in 90 degree heat. If we assume that the staff didn’t want the kids to die then it goes back to training.
--- End quote ---
The problem with your reasoning, Whooter, is that in real life the "we-all-know" scenario rarely happens. As 9403390 clearly pointed out to you, from the perspective of a former staff member, most kids simply do not behave that way. And *I* can tell you, from my own personal experience, that to behave in such a fashion would never have even occurred to me.
Despite your claim of advising "caution in assuming that all programs take the same approach or attitude that the one posting 'Mr. Manipulation' does," it would appear that you, in fact, embrace that philosophy and mindset wholeheartedly! Are you that jaded and filled with cynicism that you advocate throwing common sense and safety considerations out the window in favor of snuffing out the evil maneuvers of wayward youth?
When you said, "I do know from experience that many kids are manipulative and that is how they get their way and get stuff," were you perchance talking about yourself, once upon a time?
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---The problem with your reasoning, Whooter, is that in real life the "we-all-know" scenario rarely happens. As 9403390 clearly pointed out to you, from the perspective of a former staff member, most kids simply do not behave that way. And *I* can tell you, from my own personal experience, that to behave in such a fashion would never have even occurred to me.
--- End quote ---
I have seen things differently. Even in my own highschool kids would do anything to get out of class, go home sick etc. Its not all kids, but some do it more than others. If a highschool had a school nurse who handed out passes to go home every time you said you didn’t feel well there would be a line down the hall.
--- Quote ---Despite your claim of advising "caution in assuming that all programs take the same approach or attitude that the one posting 'Mr. Manipulation' does," it would appear that you, in fact, embrace that philosophy and mindset wholeheartedly! Are you that jaded and filled with cynicism that you advocate throwing common sense and safety considerations out the window in favor of snuffing out the evil maneuvers of wayward youth?
--- End quote ---
I don’t see where I advocated throwing common sense and safety out the window. My point is if you have kids who would rather be someplace else than hiking in the mountains you will probably experience some of them trying to come up with ways to avoid the hike. A staff would need to be able to differentiate between a child who is sick and one who is not. Otherwise the hikes would be aborted every day in favor of a trip to the doctor to check out a stomach ache.
The challenge is making the right decision each and every time.
--- Quote --- When you said, "I do know from experience that many kids are manipulative and that is how they get their way and get stuff," were you perchance talking about yourself, once upon a time?
--- End quote ---
Well, no, I was actually referring to teens that I have known throughout my lifetime. I never considered myself manipulative, but I guess I must have done my fair share while I was under my parents wing. Its part of the growing process for kids to try to see how much they can get away with and test the boundaries. If a kid sees a hole they will exploit it.
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