Author Topic: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?  (Read 10461 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2010, 12:49:05 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
Quick point of correction/clarification on H.R. 911, the "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." The legislation passed the House of Representatives with broad bipartisan support last year, and a sponsor is needed in the Senate for it to proceed to a vote there.

More info here: http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/t ... side.shtml

Auntie Em

Thank you for posting this, I don't usually have enough time to keep an eye on everything I need to and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I hope it gets a sponsor soon.
I think this bill will go a long way in protecting the kids in the care of these facilities.  I have been on and off the fence on regulation and this bill stops short of forcing these programs to adhere to archaic reporting systems, paperwork and red tape which would drive up the cost and do little to actually protect these kids.
If this bill were piggybacked with a requirement that annual inspections be designed and implemented (and funding for) I think it would have more teeth.  But it will still do a lot to help the way it is presently written.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline aiea

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2010, 04:12:13 PM »
The answer is yes, but so can walking across the street or sending your kid to school.  The key is as a parent reducing the risks of harm need to be looked at.

Some programs are poorly designed and dangerous, wonder why more kids don't die.  However, there are excellent programs out there that work well also.  A parent should not be making the choice alone, they should be getting recommendations from a therapist and MD for what is best for your kid.  Most deaths have been the result of staff not understanding the history and medical needs of the youth.  You do not send a kid who was high on drugs the previous month on a forced hike in 90 degree heat, it is a death wish.  Many programs are forcing kids to do things that they physically cannot do because of past drug problems.  A good program will know the physical limitations of each kid and not push those limitations.  Many kids should never be put into a wilderness program.

Some kids do extremely well and have fond memories, that is usually a kid that was sent to a program that met their needs both physically and mentally.  Research is important and just because a place is licensed does not mean they are qualified.  Don't knock the entire industry because of the bad programs, it denies the help that some really need.  Educate parents so they know what to look for and stay away from the bad programs.

Changing the laws and regulations would help.  Make it so every program must have well trained staff in the wilderness including a therapist and medical staff.   Requiring owners and key staff to be therapist will also help.  Most bad programs rely on cheap untrained staff.  Restricting failed programs from re-opening under a different name and same ownership would make a difference.  Creating a certification and ethics requirement standard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ursus

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2010, 04:59:25 PM »
Quote from: "aiea"
Some programs are poorly designed and dangerous, wonder why more kids don't die.  However, there are excellent programs out there that work well also.  A parent should not be making the choice alone, they should be getting recommendations from a therapist and MD for what is best for your kid.  Most deaths have been the result of staff not understanding the history and medical needs of the youth.  You do not send a kid who was high on drugs the previous month on a forced hike in 90 degree heat, it is a death wish.  Many programs are forcing kids to do things that they physically cannot do because of past drug problems.  A good program will know the physical limitations of each kid and not push those limitations.  Many kids should never be put into a wilderness program.
Certain psychotropic medications may also effect that death wish by interfering with the body's ability to thermoregulate. Some kids' brains have literally been cooked to death inside their skulls for precisely this reason. And noooooo recreational drugs were even necessary for this feat!

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Excerpt from: Summertime and Our Meds Part 1: Heatstroke

Heatstroke is a medical emergency when the body's temperature-regulating system breaks down. The victim can't sweat and is unable to cool himself. Internal body temperature often rises as high as 108 degrees, which can cause irreversible brain damage and death. High temperatures injure endothelial* cells and damage almost every organ, including liver, kidneys, lungs, heart, and muscle.

A Few Facts About Heatstroke:

• It's more likely when the outside temperature is very hot. A heat wave is defined by the National Weather Service as 3 or more consecutive days of temperatures at or above 90°F (32.2°C ).

• Hyperpyrexia (core temperature greater than 105°F [40.6°C ]) and central nervous system impairment causing delirium or coma are characteristic.

• The death rate for heatstroke ranges from 10% to 75%, depending on other variables, but averages 25%.

• Mentally ill patients are a high-risk group. Some may not have the cognitive abilities to protect themselves; others are taking psychotropic medications that affect heat regulation.

Heatstroke is more likely when taking the following drugs:

  • Antipsychotics - especially:
    • Chlorpromazine (Thorazine)
    • Thioridazine (Mellaril)
    • Mesoridazine (Serentil)
    • Clozapine (Clozaril)
    • Risperidone (Risperdal)
    • Olanzapine (Zyprexa)
    • Quetiapine (Seroquel)
    • Ziprasidone (Geodon)
  • Antiparkinson drugs such as:
    • Benztropine (Cogentin)
    • Trihexyphenidyl (Artane)
    • Procyclidine (Arpicolin, Kemadrin)
    • Biperiden
  • Antihistamines such as:
    • diphenhydramine (Benadryl)
    • chlorpheniramine (Chlor-Trimeton, Sinutab Sinus Allergy)
  • Antidepressants, especially tricyclics such as:
    • Imipramine (Tofranil)
    • Amitriptyline (Elavil)
    • Nortriptyline (Pamelor)
    • Doxepin (Sinequan)
    • Desipramine (Norpramin)
    • Protriptyline (Vivactil)

Do's:

  • Sleep in a cool place.
  • Drink extra fluids. Water is best because the body absorbs cooler solutions fast. Other fluids are juice, Gatorade, caffeine-free soda.
  • Increase salt intake if no physical problems.
  • If you take lithium, use extra salt in addition to extra fluids.
  • Spend time in cool places (shopping malls, movies, etc.)
  • Wear loose, light-colored summer-weight clothing.
  • Use fans or air conditioning.
  • When feeling warm, use cool wet compresses or sit in a tub of cool water.
  • Remain with another person.

Don'ts:

  • Engage in strenuous exercise.
  • Drink alcoholic beverages, coffee and soda with caffeine (caffeine and alcohol increase water loss).
  • Spend time outside in the sun.
  • Sleep or sit in hot conditions.

Warning Signs:

  • Nausea, headache, feeling poorly, weakness
  • Irritability, anxiety
  • Fast pulse, rapid breathing, dizziness
  • Hot OR dry skin, confusion, vomiting, diarrhea

* Endothelial cells line blood vessels, body cavities, organs and the inner layer of the cornea of the eye, among other things.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2010, 05:45:43 PM »
Thanks Ursus,  This is a really good point:

I think educating parents to ask the right questions will go a long way in preventing children from getting hurt.  Parents should ask if staff are adequately trained to recognize symptoms of heat stroke (as well as first –aid etc.) prior to choosing a specific wilderness program.

If fornits moved more towards educating people I think it would go a long way in helping families chose the right direction for their child.  Information is critical.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Joel

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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2010, 06:01:20 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:22:15 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2010, 06:22:06 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Thanks Ursus,  This is a really good point:

I think educating parents to ask the right questions will go a long way in preventing children from getting hurt.  Parents should ask if staff are adequately trained to recognize symptoms of heat stroke (as well as first –aid etc.) prior to choosing a specific wilderness program.

If fornits moved more towards educating people I think it would go a long way in helping families chose the right direction for their child.  Information is critical.

Whooter I don't mean to be rude but you use specific language people associated with the troubled teen industry use.  I am referring to educational consultants, people that programs rely on for positive reviews, people associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers, current program staff or former program staff.  This is something I have wanted to get off my chest for awhile and don't know if you fall under any of the previously mentioned categories.

Thats okay, Joel, dont feel bad, you are not being rude.  People with the same beliefs usually end up talking in similar terms.  Look at the use of the terms Gulags and incarceration etc.with survivors who had a bad experience and then look at survivors who did extremely well and they use a different language to communicate and describe the same experience.
My language would be more in line with people who are pro-program than those of survivors who had a bad experience because they are my beliefs and support my experiences.  If I spent 10 years in England I would probably pick up an English accent, but that would not make me English or necessarily a person who liked Soccer.
But it is interesting that you point out that I speak the language.  It shows how the time spent here on fornits has effected me and my vocabulary on the subject.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Joel

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« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2010, 06:34:51 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:24:23 AM by Joel »

Offline Ursus

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2010, 07:02:02 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Does the following apply to you?

1. Educational consultants
2. People that programs rely on for positive reviews
3. People associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers
4. Current program staff
5. Former program staff

I find it ironic a person who is "pro-program" posts on a website that exposes abuse.
Aaahhh... Damage control. A less overt aspect of marketing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2010, 07:07:46 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Does the following apply to you?

1. Educational consultants
2. People that programs rely on for positive reviews
3. People associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers
4. Current program staff
5. Former program staff

I find it ironic a person who is "pro-program" posts on a website that exposes abuse.

Maybe you have not been here long enough but there are more people posting here than those just exposing abuse.  There are those who think I run a program, an educational consultant etc., I have had many names placed upon me.  If these things bother you then I am sorry.  I cant change who I am.  I am a program parent and I don't get paid by the industry. If you dont believe this than there is really nothing I can do.



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Joel

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« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2010, 05:49:43 AM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:24:53 AM by Joel »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2010, 11:58:01 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
 I am a program parent and I don't get paid by the industry.


We heard that from Sue Scheff too.  And, technically, it may very well be true.  Doesn't mean he doesn't profit from the industry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2010, 12:50:18 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Quote
1. Educational consultants
2. People that programs rely on for positive reviews
3. People associated with non profit organizations helping parents of troubled teenagers
4. Current program staff
5. Former program staff

Whooter I am not interested in what others think about you.  Does 1 - 5 apply to you?  These are easy questions to answer.

Joel, the answer to your question is “no”.  None of them apply to me.  In regards to Anne’s response she does have a point.  If you have a 401k then you probably profit from the troubled teen industry.  These programs also pay taxes which help repair roads, support federal programs and help fund unemployment and welfare.  So if you drive a car or benefit from any federal agencies then you are, technically, profiting from the industry.



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2010, 01:56:48 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Joel, the answer to your question is “no”.  None of them apply to me.  In regards to Anne’s response she does have a point.  If you have a 401k then you probably profit from the troubled teen industry.  These programs also pay taxes which help repair roads, support federal programs and help fund unemployment and welfare.  So if you drive a car or benefit from any federal agencies then you are, technically, profiting from the industry.


That's not what I meant, but you knew that.  Another example of why people accuse you of deflection.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Joel

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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2010, 02:10:09 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:25:26 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Can Wilderness Camps Kill Your Kid?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2010, 02:21:23 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter

Quote
Do you benefit from the troubled teen industry financially?
Do you have any involvement with the persons/programs below?  


Tamara Ancona Denni David
Building Bridges
Marilyn Engelman
Second Nature Wilderness Program
Willow Creek School
Homeward Bound
Westchester Family Academy
Leslie Goldberg
Aspen Ranch
Aspen Institute for Behavioral Assessment
Vision Adolescent Services
Stone Mountain School

Look Joel, I already told you that I don't have any ties to the industry nor do I profit from it.  I had a daughter who attended a wilderness program and then she entered ASR.  That is my entire involvement.



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