« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 19   Go Down

Author Topic: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....  (Read 33721 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2010, 02:12:53 PM »
Thanks for the references, freewill, I am neutral on this so I dont have a personal opinion at this point......I looked thru the effectiveness section but there isnt any reference to a study which supports the numbers that this guy bases his statements on.  The Youtube videos never pointed the reader to a study either.

His Orange papers stated:
Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

But he never referenced the study.  Does anyone have a link to this?  How many people were studied?  Who carried out the study?  What were the results?  
It appears he just pulled the numbers out of the air.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged

Offline Free Will

  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2010, 02:18:40 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Thanks for the references, freewill, I am neutral on this so I dont have a personal opinion at this point......I looked thru the effectiveness section but there isnt any reference to a study which supports the numbers that this guy bases his statements on.  The Youtube videos never pointed the reader to a study either.

His Orange papers stated:
Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

But he never referenced the study.  Does anyone have a link to this?  How many people were studied?  Who carried out the study?  What were the results?  
It appears he just pulled the numbers out of the air.



...
Whooter.  He cites the Brandsma study, George Vaillant's data, and many others.  He's very clear at how he arrives at his conclusions so you can agree or disagree.  It's in black and white on his effectiveness page.  Don't pretend like they don't exist.  Where there aren't hyperlinks to sources there are quotations with captions, footnotes, endnotes, and so forth.  I already pointed you to a few studies, both of which he uses but are hardly his only sources.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged
To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.
[size=85]C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment[/size]

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2010, 02:53:49 PM »
Quote from: "Free Will"
Whooter.  He cites the Brandsma study, George Vaillant's data, and many others.  He's very clear at how he arrives at his conclusions so you can agree or disagree.  It's in black and white on his effectiveness page.  Don't pretend like they don't exist.  Where there aren't hyperlinks to sources there are quotations with captions, footnotes, endnotes, and so forth.  I already pointed you to a few studies, both of which he uses but are hardly his only sources.



Doctor Brandsma spoke a lot about binge drinking but his study never reported on effectiveness numbers.  As far as I can tell the reference on the orange papers are to support his talking about "binge drinking" not effectiveness numbers.
George Vaillant never concluded effectiveness numbers either.


Here is what I found:
 
In 1980 Dr Jeffrey Brandsma and colleagues published a large scale controlled study of the effect of alcoholism treatment on alcoholics.


Conclusions from the Brandsma Study
From this study we conclude that whereas AA may be a good and comfortable fit for a few people who have a problem with alcohol, the majority of people with alcohol problems appear to do better with a different approach. We would love to see a study of why so many people dropped out of AA. We hypothesize that this may be due to the fact that AA's theological notions of the powerlessness of humanity and of the need for a rescuing God are unpalatable not only to many atheists and agnostics but to almost all theists who are not Calvinists as well. Unfortunately, no attempt has ever been made to study the best way to match individuals with alcohol treatment which took these theological variables into account.

A number of researchers have made the claim that 95% of new AA members leave within the first year--that only 5% of new member remain. This claim is based on an AA internal document called Comments On A.A.'S Triennial Surveys.
Link to source



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2010, 12:22:16 PM »
Whooter and Freewill,
My statement from the beginning of this thread has been that "AA - GSO New York City World Headquarters For AA....Has not nor will entertain, endorse or participate in a survey. That is all I have been saying and you have not proved this inaccurate yet. Not that I am trying to win this debate, I am just trying to establish AA positions here as I know them. I have been a member of AA for 22 yrs. and counting. Please read our material.
Just because ex-members, agencies, members (of AA) or whatever publish a opinion or their experience does not mean they speak for AA (as they in fact were a AA). I don't speak for AA, I am speaking of decades of experience and opinions. I understand the anonymity that AA will continue on with.
I would not venture to take on a study of AA, first off why??? AA is people trying to get sober or not. Many folks find out AA is not for them either because they don't like it or they are not Alcoholics. This is my short laymen version.
Danny.....
 :shamrock:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged

Offline Anne Bonney

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5006
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2010, 04:49:46 PM »
Quote from: "Danny Bennison"
:soapbox:
I would not venture to take on a study of AA, first off why???
 :shamrock:

Really???  Why??  Uhhhh because if you're gonna brag about "success rates" you better goddamned well be able to back your claims up.  That's what is expected in the real world.  Maybe not in AA's insular little fairlyland but damn.  I can't believe you seriously asked that.

To back up what they tell people in meetings.  To be honest.  So that they don't give false hope...they do'nt promise things they can't deliver.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2010, 05:39:41 PM »
Quote from: "Danny Bennison"
Whooter and Freewill,
My statement from the beginning of this thread has been that "AA - GSO New York City World Headquarters For AA....Has not nor will entertain, endorse or participate in a survey. That is all I have been saying and you have not proved this inaccurate yet. Not that I am trying to win this debate, I am just trying to establish AA positions here as I know them. I have been a member of AA for 22 yrs. and counting. Please read our material.
Just because ex-members, agencies, members (of AA) or whatever publish a opinion or their experience does not mean they speak for AA (as they in fact were a AA). I don't speak for AA, I am speaking of decades of experience and opinions. I understand the anonymity that AA will continue on with.
I would not venture to take on a study of AA, first off why??? AA is people trying to get sober or not. Many folks find out AA is not for them either because they don't like it or they are not Alcoholics. This is my short laymen version.
Danny.....
 :shamrock:

I dont have a personal opinion on AA, I was just pointing out that the statement the orange papers made about AA’s failure rates is unsubstantiated:

 Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

I checked Doctor Jefferey Brandsmas study and George Vaillant's papers and neither one of them came to this conclusion, so the argument used on the orange papers is based on numbers which were pulled from the air?  Why didn’t they reference a study?

Does anyone have a link to where this study or who performed it?



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2010, 02:13:06 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Danny Bennison"
:soapbox:
I would not venture to take on a study of AA, first off why???
 :shamrock:

Really???  Why??  Uhhhh because if you're gonna brag about "success rates" you better goddamned well be able to back your claims up.  That's what is expected in the real world.  Maybe not in AA's insular little fairlyland but damn.  I can't believe you seriously asked that.

To back up what they tell people in meetings.  To be honest.  So that they don't give false hope...they do'nt promise things they can't deliver.
:shamrock:  :shamrock:
Here we go again, AA/GSO does not publish any success rates or any kind of rates that would be your friends survey, OJ. We (AA) does not promote itself people promote, advertise and push AA. Read Anne. GO on line and find the site for AA. Find the Twelve and Twelve and read the twelve traditions. They will explain in detail what AA does.
If you would just read for crying out loud and stop being stubborn you will see you are wrong. I am not arguing with you about members being assholes ( I am One...lol). But I do not represent AA/GSO they remain anonymous in this, they can't control my actions nor do they want too.
Danny
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged

Offline Free Will

  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2010, 02:17:23 AM »
It may be difficult to find places where AA has stated a success rate (it has had the surveys, however), but it does flatly state that AA is the only way to sobriety.  AA does this by redefining sobriety to mean a person who has adopted the spiritual principles of AA (of course a person only finds out about this redefinition after joining AA).  A person that quits drinking is merely "dry" (as i elaborated on in the other thread).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged
To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.
[size=85]C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment[/size]

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2010, 02:43:12 AM »
Quote from: "Free Will"
It may be difficult to find places where AA has stated a success rate (it has had the surveys, however), but it does flatly state that AA is the only way to sobriety.  AA does this by redefining sobriety to mean a person who has adopted the spiritual principles of AA (of course a person only finds out about this redefinition after joining AA).  A person that quits drinking is merely "dry" (as i elaborated on in the other thread).
:shamrock:  :shamrock:
Free come on you know darn well they have never funded, endorsed or participated in a survey. It would go against everything they stand for. We as members are not their pawns and WE ARE ANONYMOUS...ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS= AA, they can't we are anonymous. Get it!!!!!!
Read the materials no where are you going to find that statement, "AA is the only way to sobriety".
AA supports church, psychiatric care and so on it states this in the big book. Listen go on line I have two computers, sometime next week lets go to the AA site and look at the book. If you can show me what your talking about in the books I'll stop AA right there. OK....Will discuss this gentlemanly on this site ok.
Danny .....I hope I explained that well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged

Joel

  • Guest
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2010, 03:04:41 AM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:38:19 AM by Joel »
Logged

Offline Free Will

  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2010, 03:28:52 AM »
Quote from: "Danny Bennison"
Quote from: "Free Will"
It may be difficult to find places where AA has stated a success rate (it has had the surveys, however), but it does flatly state that AA is the only way to sobriety.  AA does this by redefining sobriety to mean a person who has adopted the spiritual principles of AA (of course a person only finds out about this redefinition after joining AA).  A person that quits drinking is merely "dry" (as i elaborated on in the other thread).
:shamrock:  :shamrock:
Free come on you know darn well they have never funded, endorsed or participated in a survey. It would go against everything they stand for. We as members are not their pawns and WE ARE ANONYMOUS...ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS= AA, they can't we are anonymous. Get it!!!!!!
Read the materials no where are you going to find that statement, "AA is the only way to sobriety".

AA states that people who quit without AA are not really "sober".  They are merely "dry".  This means AA teaches that AA is the only way to Sobriety.

Furthermore.  AA literature itself teaches:

Quote
The A.A. literature says:

    * ... you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
      ...
      At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life — or else.
      The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 44.
    * ...he was insisting that he had found the only cure.
      The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 257.
    * ...they had found the only remedy...
      The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 259.
    * Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
      Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William Wilson, page 35.
    * Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.
      Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William Wilson, page 174.

There is a lot of doublespeak on this (last house on the block, etc) and logical contradictions, but the truth of the matter is that AA teaches that while you are free to *try* other options, you are guaranteed to fail, or fall victim to the unhappy sickness of the "dry drunk".  There are hundreds of AA slogans on the topic, such as "it's our way or the die way", which I'm sure you've heard.  

There's lots more, but I can't be bothered to go on here.  I've made my point on this particular issue.  If you still don't get it, hundreds more examples can be found here:
http://orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a1 ... a_only_way

Note that I don't agree with everything the guy says, but he has a lot of good insight into and research about AA.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:32:25 AM by Free Will »
Logged
To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.
[size=85]C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment[/size]

Offline Free Will

  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2010, 03:30:43 AM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Quote
Free come on you know darn well they have never funded, endorsed or participated in a survey.

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-13_winter08.pdf
Nice find Joel.  He didn't believe the black and white on Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode.  Maybe he'll believe it when he sees it on AA's own website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged
To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.
[size=85]C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment[/size]

Joel

  • Guest
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2010, 04:09:35 AM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:38:45 AM by Joel »
Logged

Offline Troll Control

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7391
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2010, 06:27:49 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
...there isnt any reference to a study which supports the numbers that this guy bases his statements on.

This guy sounds just like someone I know here...  Now WHO could that be??   :roflmao:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged
The Linchpin Link

Whooter - The Most Prolific Troll Fornits Has Ever Seen - The Definitive Links
**********************************************************************************************************
"Looks like a nasty aspentrolius sticci whooterensis infestation you got there, Ms. Fornits.  I\'ll get right to work."

- Troll Control

Offline Anne Bonney

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5006
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2010, 09:23:17 AM »
Quote from: "Danny Bennison"
Read the materials no where are you going to find that statement, "AA is the only way to sobriety".


Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. ~~ Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William Wilson, page 174.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Logged
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 19   Go Up
« previous next »