Another sad story

[maruska]

From another forum:


This is the first time I have ever joined in on anything like this but I need someone who will understand what we're going through. We have an adopted 15 year old daughter who we have had since birth. She was always strong willed and was diagnosed as ADHD at 8 yr old. Things got progressively worse over the next 5 years. The summer before high school she started getting heavily involved in drugs & alcohol. In Oct 2007 we sent her to a school in Utah for help. She came home a couple months ago after being there for 16 months. She actually graduated from the program and we were so proud. They diagnosed her there with RAD and we have read everything we could get our hands on and done everything all the therapists said but find out now the basically cheated the system and did whatever she had to do to get out of there. She had been home a little over 2 months and is right back where she was before or even worse. Dealing with a teenager with RAD is very different that dealing with an infant or toddler. She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work. We are pretty much waiting for her to get picked up by the police but know that they will only bring her right back home which she has made very clear is the last place she wants to be. God help us - we love her but just don't know what to do.

This is so sad...I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter....it was hell...so I know what they are dealing with...
they are hurting, they are scared...and here comes SOMEONE with a solution: let her go to a school in Utah to get help....oh well...

I do not know how the people working in those schools  can sleep at night...or do they really all  believe they are doing the right thing? Do they never have any doubts? Who is allowed to  work in such schools?  
I think back of the only time when such a school was opened in my country...the Morava academy. After a couple of weeks the Czech teachers reported the school to the police...they learned quickly that the methods were abusive and against the law in my country...the Academy was closed short after...so I wonder...

[Whooter]

I feel for the young girl and her whole family.  Attachment disorders are very difficult if not impossible to treat.  There are only a handful of programs in the country willing to and equipped to take on these little RADishes and even then they have had limited success.  If left untreated they will function minimally in society and most likely spend most of their adult life in jail.  Even kids who have had treatment dont function well with other people.



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Maruska, looks like you've got a troll. Don't feed it.

She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work.

Hahahahahaha, of course not. Dear Anonymous Dipshit Parent, you spent your last dime sending your daughter to a shitpit, and you found out that you still don't deserve her respect. Now there's absolutely nothing left you can do to her, no threats that will make her bow to your sick desires, and your friends' make-believe diagnosis of "reactive attachment disorder" (the only sane response to insane people pretending authority) won't help in the slightest. You have no future, no hope, and no options. Kill yourself.

My heart goes out to this uniquely strong-willed girl and hope that she shows up on Fornits soon.

[Awake]

From another forum:


This is the first time I have ever joined in on anything like this but I need someone who will understand what we're going through. We have an adopted 15 year old daughter who we have had since birth. She was always strong willed and was diagnosed as ADHD at 8 yr old. Things got progressively worse over the next 5 years. The summer before high school she started getting heavily involved in drugs & alcohol. In Oct 2007 we sent her to a school in Utah for help. She came home a couple months ago after being there for 16 months. She actually graduated from the program and we were so proud. They diagnosed her there with RAD and we have read everything we could get our hands on and done everything all the therapists said but find out now the basically cheated the system and did whatever she had to do to get out of there. She had been home a little over 2 months and is right back where she was before or even worse. Dealing with a teenager with RAD is very different that dealing with an infant or toddler. She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work. We are pretty much waiting for her to get picked up by the police but know that they will only bring her right back home which she has made very clear is the last place she wants to be. God help us - we love her but just don't know what to do.

This is so sad...I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter....it was hell...so I know what they are dealing with...
they are hurting, they are scared...and here comes SOMEONE with a solution: let her go to a school in Utah to get help....oh well...

I do not know how the people working in those schools  can sleep at night...or do they really all  believe they are doing the right thing? Do they never have any doubts? Who is allowed to  work in such schools?  
I think back of the only time when such a school was opened in my country...the Morava academy. After a couple of weeks the Czech teachers reported the school to the police...they learned quickly that the methods were abusive and against the law in my country...the Academy was closed short after...so I wonder...

Maruska,

I suggest you consider the harm that is done by stamping your daughter with these diagnostic labels. Think about how your communication will always be interpretted by her as coming from the perspective of "you have X wrong with you, and how I am treating you is because I love you and want to help you get better." She has no choice but to perceive any and all communication as a reflecton of your beliefs about her as being inherently wrong, even the expression of love and compassion are now coupled with the message "You have X wrong with you."

The research on RAD says: "RAD is characterized by markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate ways of relating socially in most contexts."
 and "The few existing longitudinal studies (dealing with developmental change with age over a period of time) involve only children from poorly run Eastern European institutions."
"RAD is one of the least researched and most poorly understood disorders in the DSM. There is little systematic epidemiologic information on RAD, its course is not well established and it appears difficult to diagnose accurately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder

I think you should let her know that this diagnosis of her doesn't hold much water, because it doesn't. What you have put her through in order to "fix" her is likely to produce the symptoms that qualify this label in anyone with this disorder. Think of how distressing a position you are putting her in. You are attacking her identity from the point of benevolence and love. She responds with an attack that you might view as extreme, if you don't consider how she feels in this position. Then you respond back to her with, "I'm just trying to help you because I love you. You are so ungrateful for all that I'm doing for you."

Now you are mantaining this label on her and propose to solve it, is this what you are going to do?


"Outside the mainstream programs is a form of treatment generally known as attachment therapy, a subset of techniques (and accompanying diagnosis) for supposed attachment disorders including RAD. In general, these therapies are aimed at adopted or fostered children with a view to creating attachment in these children to their new caregivers. The theoretical base is broadly a combination of regression and catharsis, accompanied by parenting methods which emphasize obedience and parental control.[89] There is considerable criticism of this form of treatment and diagnosis as it is largely unvalidated and has developed outside the scientific mainstream.[90] There is little or no evidence base and techniques vary from non-coercive therapeutic work to more extreme forms of physical, confrontational and coercive techniques, of which the best known are holding therapy, rebirthing, rage-reduction and the Evergreen model. These forms of the therapy may well involve physical restraint, the deliberate provocation of rage and anger in the child by physical and verbal means including deep tissue massage, aversive tickling, enforced eye contact and verbal confrontation, and being pushed to revisit earlier trauma.[91][92] Critics maintain that these therapies are not within the attachment paradigm, are potentially abusive,[93] and are antithetical to attachment theory.[9] The APSAC Taskforce Report of 2006 notes that many of these therapies concentrate on changing the child rather than the caregiver.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder

Guess what? This is exactly what you have already been doing by putting her through these programs! Attatchment therapy is also known as Bonding therapy and it was developed by the founder of the very first TBS model, Daytop, Dr. Daniel Casriel.
There was a page here on fornits for some general info.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&p=349559&hilit=casriel#p349559

I’d be happy to share more about this with you, but my main point is you should tell her that you realize that you may have been wrong in placing these identity labels on her and that you understand they can be hurtful. If you let her know you have been misunderstanding her, maybe she will put forth some effort to help you understand what she is going through. Believe it or not, she might really want to communicate with you, and this might be the thing keeping it from happening. I’m not saying you can’t disagree with what she is doing, just don’t place a label on her that invalidates her basic self-worth.

Currently what you are telling her is that you believe there is something inherently wrong with her and she needs treatment. This “treatment” could hardly be seen by her as anything but punishment, yet you expect her to accept it as “help”.  Now you are punishing her because she is (correctly) perceiving your punishment for what it truly is, punishment. She is supposed perceive your punishment as a form of positive regard. This is pathological communication.
I could recommend some reading  that may help if you’d like, but I truly think considering this could help.

[Che Gookin]

The above posts reminds me of a forum one of the Danes mentioned awhile ago. On that forum the parents run around with their kids diagnoses and med intakes in their signatures. My instinctive response was, "WTF happened to the old bumper stickers that said honor roll student on board?"

I mean seriously, these kids have names, feelings, and entire belief systems. I'd suggest not programming them to walk around saying, "Hi, my name is bob, I have ADD and I take Adderal."

Sound odd?

Well it happens and when it does its damn disturbing.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

The above posts reminds me of a forum one of the Danes mentioned awhile ago. On that forum the parents run around with their kids diagnoses and med intakes in their signatures. My instinctive response was, "WTF happened to the old bumper stickers that said honor roll student on board?"

That would be http://http://www.conductdisorders.com, an openly-viewable forum populated entirely by "people" who should never have been breeding in the first place.

[maruska]

From another forum:


This is the first time I have ever joined in on anything like this but I need someone who will understand what we're going through. We have an adopted 15 year old daughter who we have had since birth. She was always strong willed and was diagnosed as ADHD at 8 yr old. Things got progressively worse over the next 5 years. The summer before high school she started getting heavily involved in drugs & alcohol. In Oct 2007 we sent her to a school in Utah for help. She came home a couple months ago after being there for 16 months. She actually graduated from the program and we were so proud. They diagnosed her there with RAD and we have read everything we could get our hands on and done everything all the therapists said but find out now the basically cheated the system and did whatever she had to do to get out of there. She had been home a little over 2 months and is right back where she was before or even worse. Dealing with a teenager with RAD is very different that dealing with an infant or toddler. She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work. We are pretty much waiting for her to get picked up by the police but know that they will only bring her right back home which she has made very clear is the last place she wants to be. God help us - we love her but just don't know what to do.

This is so sad...I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter....it was hell...so I know what they are dealing with...
they are hurting, they are scared...and here comes SOMEONE with a solution: let her go to a school in Utah to get help....oh well...

I do not know how the people working in those schools  can sleep at night...or do they really all  believe they are doing the right thing? Do they never have any doubts? Who is allowed to  work in such schools?  
I think back of the only time when such a school was opened in my country...the Morava academy. After a couple of weeks the Czech teachers reported the school to the police...they learned quickly that the methods were abusive and against the law in my country...the Academy was closed short after...so I wonder...

Maruska,

I suggest you consider the harm that is done by stamping your daughter with these diagnostic labels. Think about how your communication will always be interpretted by her as coming from the perspective of "you have X wrong with you, and how I am treating you is because I love you and want to help you get better." She has no choice but to perceive any and all communication as a reflecton of your beliefs about her as being inherently wrong, even the expression of love and compassion are now coupled with the message "You have X wrong with you."

The research on RAD says: "RAD is characterized by markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate ways of relating socially in most contexts."
 and "The few existing longitudinal studies (dealing with developmental change with age over a period of time) involve only children from poorly run Eastern European institutions."
"RAD is one of the least researched and most poorly understood disorders in the DSM. There is little systematic epidemiologic information on RAD, its course is not well established and it appears difficult to diagnose accurately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder

I think you should let her know that this diagnosis of her doesn't hold much water, because it doesn't. What you have put her through in order to "fix" her is likely to produce the symptoms that qualify this label in anyone with this disorder. Think of how distressing a position you are putting her in. You are attacking her identity from the point of benevolence and love. She responds with an attack that you might view as extreme, if you don't consider how she feels in this position. Then you respond back to her with, "I'm just trying to help you because I love you. You are so ungrateful for all that I'm doing for you."

Now you are mantaining this label on her and propose to solve it, is this what you are going to do?


"Outside the mainstream programs is a form of treatment generally known as attachment therapy, a subset of techniques (and accompanying diagnosis) for supposed attachment disorders including RAD. In general, these therapies are aimed at adopted or fostered children with a view to creating attachment in these children to their new caregivers. The theoretical base is broadly a combination of regression and catharsis, accompanied by parenting methods which emphasize obedience and parental control.[89] There is considerable criticism of this form of treatment and diagnosis as it is largely unvalidated and has developed outside the scientific mainstream.[90] There is little or no evidence base and techniques vary from non-coercive therapeutic work to more extreme forms of physical, confrontational and coercive techniques, of which the best known are holding therapy, rebirthing, rage-reduction and the Evergreen model. These forms of the therapy may well involve physical restraint, the deliberate provocation of rage and anger in the child by physical and verbal means including deep tissue massage, aversive tickling, enforced eye contact and verbal confrontation, and being pushed to revisit earlier trauma.[91][92] Critics maintain that these therapies are not within the attachment paradigm, are potentially abusive,[93] and are antithetical to attachment theory.[9] The APSAC Taskforce Report of 2006 notes that many of these therapies concentrate on changing the child rather than the caregiver.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder

Guess what? This is exactly what you have already been doing by putting her through these programs! Attatchment therapy is also known as Bonding therapy and it was developed by the founder of the very first TBS model, Daytop, Dr. Daniel Casriel.
There was a page here on fornits for some general info.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&p=349559&hilit=casriel#p349559

I’d be happy to share more about this with you, but my main point is you should tell her that you realize that you may have been wrong in placing these identity labels on her and that you understand they can be hurtful. If you let her know you have been misunderstanding her, maybe she will put forth some effort to help you understand what she is going through. Believe it or not, she might really want to communicate with you, and this might be the thing keeping it from happening. I’m not saying you can’t disagree with what she is doing, just don’t place a label on her that invalidates her basic self-worth.

Currently what you are telling her is that you believe there is something inherently wrong with her and she needs treatment. This “treatment” could hardly be seen by her as anything but punishment, yet you expect her to accept it as “help”.  Now you are punishing her because she is (correctly) perceiving your punishment for what it truly is, punishment. She is supposed perceive your punishment as a form of positive regard. This is pathological communication.
I could recommend some reading  that may help if you’d like, but I truly think considering this could help.

Awake, Thank you so much for you post and I apologize....I did not express myself very good..when I said:
I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter...
what I meant  was I was  in similar situation ...not the same situation:)...my daughter started experimenting with alcohol and drugs ...I went through hell and I really feel for those parents...the fear I had for my child was terrible and I can really understand that when someone comes and says: we have the solution, send her to Utah and we will save her life, because you as parents are not capable of dealing with this situation, she will end up dead or in jail if you do not send her etc...I can understand that some parents just give in...

I had my friends, family and a great child psychologist who helped us with this situation...nobody suggested to send her away to get help...this is not the way we deal with those problems...and I would never even consider it!  She will be 18 in a couple of months , heading for University . The terrible phase made her stronger,  she learned from her mistakes, she matured, she is great! Oh I know she will make many more mistakes in her life...everybody does..such is life. But she knows her parents have been  there for her every minute of her life, doing the hard work to parent her LOL..    

That was the point of my post...how the people working for these programs and schools can sleep at night knowing that basically what they  do is NOT working...That they are using this situation when every parent is so vulnerable..that they are offering "therapy" ..which in many cases either not works or even harms the children....

and I agree with you regarding RAD completely...and regarding labeling children with various diagnosis ...I think the situation in my country is not that bad ...the parents use their common sense (well most of them LOL).
 
So please accept my apology, to express myself clearly in English is not easy:))

[Whooter]

Awake, Thank you so much for you post and I apologize....I did not express myself very good..when I said:
I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter...
what I meant was I was in similar situation ...not the same situation:)...my daughter started experimenting with alcohol and drugs ...I went through hell and I really feel for those parents...the fear I had for my child was terrible and I can really understand that when someone comes and says: we have the solution, send her to Utah and we will save her life, because you as parents are not capable of dealing with this situation, she will end up dead or in jail if you do not send her etc...I can understand that some parents just give in...

Anyone who has had to raise a child has to go thru this.  Almost all Kids will experiment with drugs and alcohol at one time or another during their teen years and 99.9% of the kids will be okay like yours was.

I had my friends, family and a great child psychologist who helped us with this situation...nobody suggested to send her away to get help...this is not the way we deal with those problems...and I would never even consider it! She will be 18 in a couple of months , heading for University . The terrible phase made her stronger, she learned from her mistakes, she matured, she is great! Oh I know she will make many more mistakes in her life...everybody does..such is life. But she knows her parents have been there for her every minute of her life, doing the hard work to parent her LOL..

Local services should always be the first option and they are very effective in most cases.  But there are a small percentage of kids in which local services are ineffective for them and they become at-risk.  At this point the parents need to make some hard decision of whether to seek further help outside the home or just let the child continue down that path and hope for the best.  You were fortunate, Maruska, that you didn’t have to make this decision.

That was the point of my post...how the people working for these programs and schools can sleep at night knowing that basically what they do is NOT working...That they are using this situation when every parent is so vulnerable..that they are offering "therapy" ..which in many cases either not works or even harms the children....

If you have ever seen a child reunited with their family after attending a program and then move onto a happy life you would understand how these people not only sleep well at night but enjoy their jobs immensely.  It is very rewarding.  I think you have only been exposed to those children who have not responded well and therefore have formed your opinion on limited information.

and I agree with you regarding RAD completely...and regarding labeling children with various diagnosis ...I think the situation in my country is not that bad ...the parents use their common sense (well most of them LOL).

So please accept my apology, to express myself clearly in English is not easy:))

I don’t believe people should be labeled either,  but at the same time we should not bury our heads in the sand an pretend there is not a problem.
If we picked a European country at random… say France.  Many consider alcohol and drugs a non problem because they ignore the facts and the alcohol lobby suppresses information to the public.  People in France sleep well at night because they are not aware of the facts.  According to the WHO France has the highest alcoholism rate in the world.  45,000 people die each year from alcohol related issues.

"A third of all custodial sentences in this country, half of all domestic violence, a third of all handicaps are due to alcohol," he said. "One French person in 10 is ill as a result of alcohol, and every day five French people die after an accident linked to alcohol." He said 5 million drank too much, and 2 million were dependent on alcohol……………..  In greater Paris there were 245 hospital beds in specialist departments for alcohol-related problems,
Link

I enjoy a good French wine in the evening.  I also know that it is healthy for me.  But we cannot make assumptions based on my experience or yours we need to step back and look at the larger picture to see where the harm really is taking place.  It is important to keep an open mind and not form opinions too quickly.



…

[Awake]

[[

and I agree with you regarding RAD completely...and regarding labeling children with various diagnosis ...I think the situation in my country is not that bad ...the parents use their common sense (well most of them LOL).

So please accept my apology, to express myself clearly in English is not easy:))

I don’t believe people should be labeled either,  but at the same time we should not bury our heads in the sand an pretend there is not a problem.
If we picked a European country at random… say France.  Many consider alcohol and drugs a non problem because they ignore the facts and the alcohol lobby suppresses information to the public.  People in France sleep well at night because they are not aware of the facts.  According to the WHO France has the highest alcoholism rate in the world.  45,000 people die each year from alcohol related issues.


…

I'm not sure I understand. In your first post you used the term "RADishes" as if you had some intimate knowledge and experience with it. Where does that come from if you don't mind me asking? It sounds like you feel you have an understanding for when and when not to use labels like RAD and Alchoholic. I think these things are so different you must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a broad connection.

[Whooter]

I'm not sure I understand. In your first post you used the term "RADishes" as if you had some intimate knowledge and experience with it. Where does that come from if you don't mind me asking?

It was kind of interesting,  I knew a woman who had adopted several children and 2 of them had RAD.  She referred to them as her little RADishes.   The term caught on within the group she was with who had kids with RAD and I have seen it used more and more within that community of people.

It sounds like you feel you have an understanding for when and when not to use labels like RAD and Alchoholic. I think these things are so different you must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a broad connection.

My thinking here is that we are all labeled in one way or another but these labels don’t need to define who we are.  People should be free to meet and get to know each other with a clean slate.  I don’t think it is necessary to introduce someone as:

“This is my son, Jimmy, he has Leukemia or he has RAD.  This is my brother Jake who just got out of prison for theft.”

Although the statements may be true they tend to bias a person’s initial perception and can be hard to overcome in a social situation.  I just find it unnecessary, Awake, that’s all.  When people on here call themselves survivors I don’t think they mean that this defines them.  They could be carpenters, nurses etc. as well as a survivor.  If people want to use them to define themselves that is fine, but others shouldn't do it. I hope this helps.



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Awake]

It sounds like you feel you have an understanding for when and when not to use labels like RAD and Alchoholic. I think these things are so different you must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a broad connection.

My thinking here is that we are all labeled in one way or another but these labels don’t need to define who we are.    



...

How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?

[Whooter]

How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?

One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others.  For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are.  You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or  start your own business etc.  You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.



...

[come]

How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?

One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others.  For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are.  You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or  start your own business etc.  You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.



...

Whooter,

Do you make referrals to Aspen?  If not, what is your role/relationship with Aspen?

[Awake]

How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?

One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others.  For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are.  You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or  start your own business etc.  You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.



...

Survivor is a label people choose. Even under the odd circumstance that someone might call someone a survivor, that person is free to openly object to it and expect the social environment to accept that statement. This does not qualify as being within the same context as a label like RAD

 A child diagnosed with RAD cannot object to the label or the resulting treatment. This experience would be felt as an attack on anyone’s ability to feel secure in their environment. Forced embracing, holding, smothering, and expressions of love and sympathy that are normally reserved only for spontaneous, genuine, intimate human contact is extremely dangerous when used as a ritual tool in therapy. Children pick up on the nuances of social interaction quickly and realize that these expressions are not genuine personal expressions but only behaviors exhibited for manipulative purposes. You can’t fault them for then distrusting basic expressions of love in the outside world.

But  I agree with you that one way we can define ourselves is by our actions, you are what you do, but you do what the situation demands of you.  When someone has a significant enough power to dictate the fate of another based on their behavior, or a label can been placed on you which dictates how you are to be treated by other you cannot expect their behavior to be “theirs” and theirs alone.  Consider these children here being treated for RAD with Attachment Therapy. We can hardly look at them and say to ourselves that they are truly owning  their actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb ... re=related

 I think anyone would agree that in such a situation they would behave in whatever way they thought would get them out of it the fastest, which incidentally would be to do whatever they said would achieve that result. This is the opposite of being an individual and being “you”.  

How would you attempt to be yourself in this situation?  How would you feel about yourself?