ASTART and CAFETY Capitol Hill Briefing - Feb 2009

[Antigen]

:timeout:  Hey Antigen, my horns don't grow backwards as I am a man of principle. Whatever, if you welcome CAFETY Compromise then go right ahead.

What makes you think I welcome CAFETY compromise? I don't. I do welcome discussion (i.e. exposure) of it, though.

[Antigen]

I think it'll certainly be interesting to see how this all plays out, no doubt.

I suppose if it's your first time watching this show it might be interesting. I'm pretty certain it'll be just the same ol'e same ol'e song n dance. The activists call upon the legislators and overseers, bunch of lobbyists take in a bunch of private sector money and apply it to the direction of public sector dollars to set up and maintain a little more bureaucracy and the beating goes on. Boring.

I have a bit more faith in the state - I'm all for the social-welfare state, personally...

So go visit Cuba. Seriously. I'm not saying "leave the country for good you pinko" or anything. Just sayin you should walk around a few places where the social welfare state has had a chance to work it's magic before you advocate bringing it home.

Rusty, I think its great that you have such strong opinions, I'm certain you can find a way to put it to good use.

  :roflmao:   Can find??? Like as in sooner or later something useful may come out of his efforts? Li'll gurl, Rusty is old enough to be your papa and has been at this gig for at least 10 years. He and his associates have probably done more to directly shut down programs while exposing and documenting abuses than almost anyone else.


 ::poke::

[Rusty Goat]

kat says: "In anycase, think this debate is well worn in other threads and that the merits of state intervention are really difficult to assess, particularly among vastly diverging ideologies and when primarily speculating in theory with little basis in fact... And I think facts can be used to support all sides..."

speculating in theory? What theory applies here? Get paid or be bought off? Kill or be killed? Survival of the fittest? Eat or be eaten? Those are all tried and true theories with quite predictable results. Please explain... vastly diverging ideologies? Again... name some, please.

Plugging the bill reminds me of Palin standing there at the turkey farm laughing, smiling, all the while a live turkey is being forced into the grinder in the background.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1N3G37_SQ     :clown:  :clown:  :clown:  :clown:   :roflmao


ok, Antigen, I'm just a cranky old goat you know, don't mind me...   :roflmao:

[Ursus]

Here's another one:

Palin's Turkey Slaughter (Alternate view)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV2_bHTP_gU[/list]

This clip focuses, from time to time, right up close ... on the instrument of death, with its overflowing basin of blood underneath, as well as panning the pen of doomed dozens bearing witness, awaiting their turn.

Interspersed between Palin's cackles of joy at the holiday (and probably at being subject of the camera), not to mention frequent references to "having fun," are sound effects of the unfortunate turkey currently undergoing "treatment." Death is not instantaneous, and, on occasion, the farmer has to exert effort at pushing the turkey's head deeper into the chute, while its legs flail away...

Surreal, to say the least. Makes ya seriously contemplate becoming a vegetarian.

[Whooter]

The media controls where to conduct the interview not Sarah Palin.  I doubt they asked her,  ahead of time, if she wanted to position the interview so people could take the focus of their attention away from her and onto a guy slaughtering turkeys in the background.

I also don’t think viewers would think of her any differently because of what Turkey farmers do.  Most people are fully aware that they slaughter turkeys in the lower 48 also.

The media has become so biased in this country that it is difficult to decipher what is relevant news and what isn’t and how much filtering is going on.  I find it interesting to read what the rest of the world reports (not under the control of US politics) thru reading the BBC,  Aljazeera etc..  You would be surprised at what goes unreported in this country.



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

If you don't think the Governor of Alaska could say "Hey, maybe we should pick a different angle? I don't like this backstop" to a local TV station, you're dumber than we thought. Conducting an interview while poultry is being ground up behind you isn't the best of ideas unless you're Frank fucking Purdue.

Oh well, it sure beats trying to argue around murdered children, doesn't it Whooter?

You would be surprised at what goes unreported in this country.

The best irony is when the person delivering it has no idea what it is.

You and Mrs. Helicopters With Wolves have a lot in common, Whooter.

[Anonymous]

You and Mrs. Helicopters With Wolves have a lot in common, Whooter.

  :rofl:

[Che Gookin]

Here is the sand that chafes my vagina, and I'll make it short and relatively to the point. The writer's of HR 911 haven't really gone into the specifics of how they plan to enact this legislation. They haven't addressed the fact that previous legislation on the city and state level has been less than worthwhile. They haven't even really addressed or allowed those who witnessed the state level laws in effect to speak at their hearings.

Why did they rush to ignore all that potentially insightful testimony? Did George Miller want those survivors of Straight Inc. brushed off? I mean they did sit there and see a sign day in and day out that under Florida State Law they could call in abuse. Of course any attempt to do so was met with violence.

HR 911 and George Miller haven't even really taken the time to speak with those who have witnessed just how easy it is to manipulate the phrasing of incident reports to tilt things in favor of abusive programs.

Most of those they absolutely needed to speak with weren't spoken with.

That's why this legislation scares me, because at the very heart of it the legislation is uniformed. It wasn't written with the information needed to make real effective changes towards destroying the abuse in the industry. That's a big concession for me as well, considering I normally advocate destroying the industry entirely, which I still do, but even I can see that this isn't going away entirely.

No, until people like George Miller take the time to do this properly, I see no reason to support half measures that in probability will only create a bigger muddle through vague and poorly executed legislation. Do it right or fuck off is my new motto.

[Froderik]

Do it right or fuck off is my new motto.

 :notworthy:  :twofinger:  :cheers:  :rocker: :tup:  :tup:

[Whooter]

If you don't think the Governor of Alaska could say "Hey, maybe we should pick a different angle? I don't like this backstop" to a local TV station, you're dumber than we thought. Conducting an interview while poultry is being ground up behind you isn't the best of ideas unless you're Frank fucking Purdue.

Exactly, I think we can safely assume that she was unaware of the Turkeys being slaughtered in the background otherwise she would have asked for another back drop as you indicated.

Oh well, it sure beats trying to argue around murdered children, doesn't it Whooter?

From your avatar I see that you make light of this subject and I have to disagree with you there, Palin is tough on that issue and was an advocate for the death penalty for any adult who murders children.  I am not a fan of Palin but agree with her tough stance on kids who are murdered.

Q: Would you introduce--or, if introduced by a legislator, would you support--a bill to adopt the death penalty in Alaska? If yes, which crimes should it apply to?
A (Palin): If the Legislature were to pass a bill that established a death penalty on adults who murder children, I would sign it.



...

[Oz girl]

After watching what cafety actually have to say on the matter, I don't think they view regulation/legislation as a 1 stop magic panacea. They said that legislation in their mind is a start but can not go far enough, and that education is needed to stop parents from putting money into this industry. With this in mind I am struggling to see the issue here. I don't see why those opposed to regulation cant agree to disagree on that one issue but be keen to work with cafety in generally fighting the industry.

[Anonymous]

They said that legislation in their mind is a start but can not go far enough, and that education is needed to stop parents from putting money into this industry.

Education is 100% rubbish.  There will  always be vulnerable parents who fall for, "You need to save your child now before he dies" from money guzzling program owners.

[AuntieEm2]

Thanks, katfish. I found the videos helpful. I know legislation is an imperfect process, but having thought this over a good deal and reviewed the language in the bill, I believe it is worthwhile for a few key reasons, even if I have reservations about implementation.

Forgive me, I may not have every detail of this correct. I'm working from memory.

1. If programs do not follow the law--which is entirely possible--there exists a mechanism for legal recourse. As has been noted in the past, outlawing lynching didn't stop mob killing of blacks, but it made it possible to prosecute those who did it. Laws against theft don't stop burglary and theft, but individuals and society have a way to legally enforce punishment for thieves. You get the idea.

2. It requires that students have access to outside advocates so they can report abuse. Allegations of abuse must be investigated within a given period of time by law enforcement and by state authorities. The allegations and findings from the investigation must be reported to the feds, and the feds must ensure that crimes are pursued/punished. The feds must enter the allegations/info in a national database. A link to the database must appear on the web site and marketing materials of the programs so parents can search the database.

3. Individuals and companies/programs that are shut down cannot move across state lines and open shop under a new name, as we know now happens.

4. There are minimum requirements for the education and training required to hold a certain position. So the education director would have to have a--whatever it is--Masters or Ph.D. in education. This is not currently the case, except with medical people.

I am still focused on trying to make sure kids are never sent to these prisons in the first place, but until they are shut down completely, some protective measures are very worthwhile. I know not everyone will agree with me, but that is my view.

Auntie Em

[Che Gookin]

1. If programs do not follow the law--which is entirely possible--there exists a mechanism for legal recourse. As has been noted in the past, outlawing lynching didn't stop mob killing of blacks, but it made it possible to prosecute those who did it. Laws against theft don't stop burglary and theft, but individuals and society have a way to legally enforce punishment for thieves. You get the idea.

What state doesn't have laws for child abuse? Lemme know, I'm sure plenty of program owners would be interested in this as well.

2. It requires that students have access to outside advocates so they can report abuse. Allegations of abuse must be investigated within a given period of time by law enforcement and by state authorities. The allegations and findings from the investigation must be reported to the feds, and the feds must ensure that crimes are pursued/punished. The feds must enter the allegations/info in a national database. A link to the database must appear on the web site and marketing materials of the programs so parents can search the database.

Most states that already have some sort of offsite phone line will tell you these tools are vastly under utilized. Manipulating the residents into not using them happens on a regular basis. Didn't work in Florida, and they do have a child abuse hotline, where the police will respond within the hour. How many kids have wound up dead in Florida? The only positive item out of this is the Federalization of child abuse laws within the grounds of a residential program, which would be a positive outcome in my opinion.

3. Individuals and companies/programs that are shut down cannot move across state lines and open shop under a new name, as we know now happens.

Cousin Jubal! Cousin Jubal! You wanna open a program fo' me?

Sho' Cousin Ken...

Yeah dem dere feds shut me down.. I'm gonna give you dat dere money, and you can hire me later as a 'consultant'! If that don't work you can loose me some of my money back at poker night! Just you make sure you whup the shit out of them kids!

WOOO hah! Whupping the shit out of kids is fun!

4. There are minimum requirements for the education and training required to hold a certain position. So the education director would have to have a--whatever it is--Masters or Ph.D. in education. This is not currently the case, except with medical people.

Allow me to introduce you to Three Springs...
Peninsula Village..
Most Aspen programs..

The list really goes on, and this makes me ask, "What is your point about degrees and such?" Most programs these days have the token shill on staff. The shills are part of the abusive process.



A question here to the community..

Do you think most advocates take the time to read or listen to others? I wonder myself because it seems they are woefully ignorant about the reality of programs outside of their own experiences. Again, HR 911 is built on a house of ignorance and good intentions. It is not a step in the right direction, it is a wasted effort.

[Rusty Goat]

After reading this:

http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/146177

I have to wonder how a yet another state or federal agency would be able to handle any privately owned program problems. Lots of programs are licensed and abusive.