Author Topic: Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons  (Read 18731 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2004, 01:40:00 PM »
***three months going to school on the campus of Carolina Springs Academy...

And you are to be respected as an authority on the industry?
Your just one of many sick individuals who are fighting fiercely to defend the inherently abusive techniques employed by programs.

I think it wouldn't be hard to find research to indicate that 7 out of 10 people are susceptible to change using methods of torture or mental conditioning.

You claimed:
I've seen it happen, seen these kids outright lie to the press when I know the truth.

You saw that attending school three months at CSA?

You also said:
But the ratio of truth to lies is one in thirty claims, and individual staff members who actually do abuse the kids are immediately removed; they're not the example you should be looking at.

Three months, and you can make this claim? 1:30 huh? What do you base this claim on?

And Einstien, you totally missed the boat on the Mormon issue.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2004, 02:03:00 PM »
// I should know, I spent three months going to school on the campus of Carolina Springs Academy, and I've been there to see the best and the worst of the place.//

Well, your entire post is so full of bull its hard to know where to start, but I think this above takes the cake. You were at CSA Three months - and you can as a result declare what is true across the board in the WWASP programs? Even at CSA?  Now This is just plain ridiculous.
And you are all over Niles and others for their "ignorance", but how 'bout yours pal? What do you know about brainwashing? How 'bout educating yourself abit before you go popping off about what is and what aint brainwashing.
  You can begin here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ct-details

About the Author
Charles Swencionis, Ph.D. teaches at the Ferkauf Graduate School of Psychology, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Yeshiva University, Bronx, New York.


Excerpted from Battle for the Mind:
A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing by William Walters Sargant, William Sargent. Copyright © 1997. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
"This mechanism holds the possibility of explaining and understanding much of how people suddenly change direction in life, and some of the strangest religious and spiritual behavior ever described among human beings. Perhaps most important, understanding it can give us insight into the formation of social bonds, the development of gangs and groups, and allow us to make more informed choices as individuals, as a society, and as a culture, how we want our own groups to develop." Charles... read more
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Offline BuzzKill

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2004, 02:09:00 PM »
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

The Manipulated Mind: Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination
by Denise Winn

About the Author
Denise Winn is a British journalist specializing in psychology and medicine. She is a former editor of the UK edition of Psychology Today and has written for national newspapers magazines in Britain for over 20 years. She is author of 11 other books on psychological and medical topics and is currently also editor of The Therapist


Excerpted from The Manipulated Mind : Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination by Denise Winn. Copyright © 1984. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved
Excerpted from "The Magic Monastery: Analogical and Action Philosophy of the Middle East and Central Asia" by Idries Shah. Copyright 1972, 1981 by The Estate of Idries Shah. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
DELUSION A would-be disciple said to a sage: 'I have been listening to you for days now, condemning attitudes and ideas, and even conduct, which are not mine and never have been. What is the purpose of this?' The sage said: 'The purpose of it is that you should, at some point,... read more --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.


Book Description
Ever since American prisoners of war in Korea suddenly switched sides to the Communist cause, the concept of brainwashing has continued to fascinate and confuse.

Is it really possible to force any thinking person to act in a way completely alien to his character? What makes so-called brainwashing so different from the equally insidious effects of indoctrination and conditioning, or even advertising and education?

Research findings from psychology show that brainwashing is not a special subversive technique; it is the clever manipulation of unrealized influences that operate in all our lives.

This book, by breaking down so-called brainwashing to its individual elements, shows how social conditioning, need for approval, emotional dependency and much else that we are unaware of, prevent us from being as self-directed as we think; and, conversely, which human traits make us the least susceptible to subtle influence.
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Offline cherish wisdom

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2004, 03:01:00 PM »
I'd like to suggest that those of you who feel the LDS church condones the teen abuse in Utah programs - some of which are owned and opperated by tithe-paying mormons - I'd suggest you write letters of complaint to the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  
You can probably find the address at
http://www.lds.org
Letter writing does work - I also want to remind all of you to write letters to the editor or the Salt Lake Tribune......
Particulary regarding all of the political contributions and bribes involved in this industry. It is truly outrageous that a political maneuver was used to prevent a vote on legislation that would have made these programs safer for children.....Then the person responsible for killing the legislation was given a $30,000 donation towards his campaign for governor....

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright

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If you lack wisdom ask of God and it shall be given to you.\"

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2004, 03:05:00 PM »
Mormons, just like other rabid religious fundamentalists, feel an obligation to miniter to, recruit, and/or 'fix' social 'deviants'; in order to create a perfect world where everyone's content and at peace.  

Nothing fundamentally wrong with that... they have just missed the boat on the real problem- as the industry has done with the teens. If they want to create a peaceful society they should be researching what characteristics are common to peaceful societies. Then working hard to create that. Rather than subjecting captive audiences to mental conditioning designed to help them 'accept the status quo'.

But then, that would just wreck the economy. Our culture/economics is dependent on illness and crisis management. A cure for cancer, for instance, would crash the economy. That's how dependent it is on people being sick and why we see no movement or support for prevention.  Everyday the majority of people in this country put money before life, cause everybody needs the sick culture to continue.

Those same rabid fundamentalists are also rabid capitalist. And when it comes to religious values or money... do I really have to say?

And guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a society in which people can't meet their basic needs and not have violence and crime, drug abuse, and the rest. The US has fallen to 6th in the world in terms of 'quality of life'. We are seeing the manifestations of that. So, are all the 'helpers' really interested in a peaceful society or just securing their weekly paycheck? And defending a culture that breeds unhappy people.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-10-23 18:37 ]
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline spirithelps

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« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2004, 08:54:00 PM »
Anonymous, first I?d like to say that true Christ warriors witness under their real names, never afraid to bring His message and attach their name to it as the witness of His actions in human terms.  Your anonymity is indicative of the hypocrisy of many organized religions (Mormonism included) as you judge others and spew alleged wrongdoings from your undercover hiding place.  If you are truly a representative of Christ, don?t be a coward, but rather show your face for all to see.

You say, "You think by attacking a religion or programs for kids that teaches at its core the time honored values of virtue, honesty, and self ?mastery, that some how you are the bearers of freedom. . . You are in fact the Ministers of the secular Humanism; the religion of victim-hood and self-destruction.?

Again, your comments reek with hypocrisy and double speak.  Your church and the youth programs may portray teachings of virtue, honesty and self-mastery on the surface.  However, the truth comes out in people?s actions of domination, control, abuse and manipulation.  If you are really of Christ, take your blinders off so that you may truly see what these kids are saying about actions that they have witnessed.  I would be happy to relate to you my personal observations as staff.

The problem with establishing virtue, honesty and self-mastery is that it?s a scale of what?s right and wrong.  As humans, this translates to one human telling/judging another human by what they believe to be right.  The hypocrisy is that the Mormons? heritage revolves around a public society that tried to instill their standards on the Mormons by making them conform to one wife for one husband, equal rights for both partners in a marriage, and no sex with minor children.  The Mormons, unable and unwilling to conform, moved west to Utah in search of their freedom to practice their secular (worldly) beliefs which often resulted in their own victims and destruction of others? individuality, independence, and self-esteem.

When I speak in this forum about Mormons, I only relate my firsthand experience with them after more than 50 some years of living amongst various cultures.  As a woman, it?s particularly hard to work and live with most of the Mormon men due to their belief that men are somehow better than women.  You will say that Mormon men don?t believe in this concept, however, again, their actions speak louder than your words.

To quote you, ?These isms (addictions) are the ever-present fruits of the so-called freedom from any standards or authority that you all seem to profess and promote here. Most of the writers here profess this slavery to addiction and abdication of personal accountability as ?freedom? like the hippies did in the 60?s as they indulged themselves in a culture of addiction to there own demise.?

Here you take a pedestal of better-than-thou, purportedly having removed all of your isms in your human existence.  Perhaps you have, but I really doubt it or you would no longer need to be on this human plane of existence.  At any rate, the Mormons certainly do have their ?isms? or addictions, as you say.  They may not drink coffee due to caffeine, but they love their Mountain Dews full of the same stuff first thing in the morning and all day long.  Every Mormon home and most Mormon grocery stores that I?ve been in are filled with chips, sweets, junk food, and sugar sweetened products without the choice of natural or unsweetened.  Diabetes is also a Mormon curse.  

I was one of those awful hippies that supposedly run amok from addiction which, by your statement, ended in my own demise.  For your information, me and a whole bunch of others are still alive and kicking today, and we?ve achieved great and wondrous successes, and we?re in mass numbers, called the Baby Boomers.

This statement of yours is pretty funny:  ?The ?after all you can do? part requires one to cross ones self amidst ones own vices and human failings and deny yourself and take up your cross as Christ taught and strive for a higher standard.?  It?s funny because this is exactly what the participants in this forum are asking you to do ? clean house in the Mormon church and instill Christ principles amongst your disciples.  

Or, you can wait, lie about it, and try to keep it a BIG FAT SECRET like the Catholic church, and then come up with some more lies and dance around on the hot coals when the truth is revealed.  For revealed it shall be.

As you say, there are many paths to Christ, and this is called man?s free will.  It takes many different roads for all of the different people to get to Him.  Some roads are straight and direct, some are filled with hair-raising bends, curves and turns onto the back roads.  Whichever road you take, you build and learn along the way from your experiences.  The experiences provide the foundation of the future you.  

It?s not trite or insignificant that these people are in this forum talking about some very major problems in a fast growing industry with virtually no oversight, standards, or civil rights protections.  In fact, I tend to believe that within this forum are the leaders of a national movement and from their perspectives and experiences, they will change things in America for the youth care industry.  As leaders, they will be the bearers of ?freedom? for future American youths.

Rather than trying to portray yourself as Christ and speak for Him, why not lead someone to Christ from within, where He always resides.  He can speak for himself to His disciples and does not need you, the middleman, the Church to represent him from your lofty self-imposed throne.

Toni Thayer
http://www.spirithelps.com
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2004, 11:27:00 PM »
Ok, again, incase you didn't get it the first time, I don't give a fuck about your theology! There. And my name isn't Niles, but I have a billion nicknames so I guess its mine here...

The only thing I do care about, which you so skillfully side-stepped to attack me on your own battle ground - the kids deserving it and they're rotten assholes who need to be punished and lie to get out of the program - would be that there are a lot of accusations of the methods in these programs being abusive and akin to brainwashing.

Also, because of the extreme secrecy and lack of oversight, there's no way to stick someone in there to FIND OUT now is there? I want that changed so we can all look and see "oh, they're okay" or "aww, they're not okay, we need to help them". Seems awfully simple, doesn't it. Prove they're not being hurt! Show what goes on in there! Give us some transparency. Martha Stewart was convicted of a crime and she's able to have people visit and have phonecalls, and talk to lawyers, and has a lot more rights than these kids who don't have to have necessarily done a damn thing wrong do!

I'd *LOVE* to wake up one day and find out everyone here was a liar and the kids were okay and getting what they needed, because it means I wouldn't have tens of thousands of abused kids on my conscience!!!

Use the search button and read what others have written about their experiences in the seminars. I'd say they seemed like brianwashing! Instigating extreme distress to weaken your mind and then while everyone's screaming, crying, and banging on chairstrying to convince you of you're wrong about this and you have to do things our way.

When you say that someone who hated being locked up in this program will lie, you make it so that its almost impossible for people who ARE abused to get help. These programs make it so they have NOBODY to turn to, if they are hurt or want to file grievance. They have no idea of their rights and can't talk to a lawyer or anyone. People in Jail, CAN.

And when you talk about these physical locks being "deserved", the only way someone would ever deserve that would be if they were actually a danger to anyone else. I hear all the damn time about its used as corporal punishment. I'm not going to argue with you about corporal punishment because I'm not psychologically well off enough to do so. Go to http://nospank.net and read up yourself.

About your rebuttals about smiling, looking out windows and at people... thats lovely. Now as soon as I see any proof of it I'll feel better.

About the seminars, no, its not kids getting back to marijuana pipes, it was parents who went into the seminar, one of which was a psychologist. Furthermore it was me talking to a psychologist MYSELF about what I heard regarding the seminars.

And yeah, I DO use my brain and not my newspaper, which is why I want these places reformed so we can make sure they're okay and if they are being hurt they can call parents (who are NOT told they will lie automatically) and advocatcy groups and the law. I also want surprise inspections and if possible, security cameras. Just like lots of businesses like them, and like real, honest to god schools without orderlies and locks to keep the kids inside of them.

Oh, and again, I don't care about your damn religion. Shut up about it. A christian, mormon, jew, agnostic, athiest, or rastafarian who abuses a kid, is one and the same to me.

Stop defending EVERYTHING by simply saying anyone who says the program was bad, didn't work, was abusive, or whatever is a "spoiled kid" or a "druggie" or whatever. Stop using your stupid hackenyed excuses over and over. We're not all the spoiled kids you seem to blame everything on, and a lot of kids who went in there were not "bad kids" but actually needed help, like the rape victim at http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens Or like the aspurgers syndrome girl I met online who went to Casa by the sea. And by the way, treating AS with the methods in these programs is like trying to treat a cold with eugenics. And yeah I have AS too.

But well, I guess in your little world, ANYONE who doesn't fully agree with the gospel of the program is a spoiled liar druggie (or whatever) and the programs are always 100% right! Too bad you don't seem to realize if something DOES go wrong they have no way to talk to anyone, and if you were a parent and your kid went into a program and you were still thinking the way you were, and if something DID happen to your kid, him or her would have NO way to get through to you and call out for help. They can't tell the truth about anything because what they say has to agree with what you believe the programs are.

You need to look at it from another perspective, yourself. Having some set in stone beilef that the programs can do NO wrong and anyone who disagrees is a liar is frankly illogical and makes it impossible for them to get help if they DO need it or if something DOES go wrong.

In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2004, 12:09:00 AM »
Nil you said:
When you say that someone who hated being locked up in this program will lie, you make it so that its almost impossible for people who ARE abused to get help. These programs make it so they have NOBODY to turn to, if they are hurt or want to file grievance. They have no idea of their rights and can't talk to a lawyer or anyone. People in Jail, CAN....

The rules are different in psychiatry and make no mistake about it, this industry is very much a tenacle of the psych industry, which has carved out a niche for itself in society and has gained authority and the respect of most.

A person under the care of a pyschiatrist can move about freely unless they are unfortuante enough to be involuntarily incarcerated for psych 'treatment'. Then they have NO rights and are under the complete control of the the professional.

Like many movies have depicted, the more one resists 'treatment', the more 'crazy' or 'disordered' they are dx as being.
Read this true account "Crazy Until Proven Sane" of a Houston woman's experience and see if you notice any similarities with the industry.

http://psychrights.org/Stories/CrazyUntilProvenSane.pdf

And check out the thread I started this morning on the Roots of the Industry: Religion/Psychiatry-And the Justification for Involuntary Incarceration
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&1
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2004, 02:18:00 AM »
I honestly think all of us are crazy until proven sane. I mean - if you had a photo journal or video of everytime you lost control, yelled or had a temper tantrum - I think 90% of us would look quite deranged.

I for one - believe all of the stories.  People just don't come to these web-sites 5, 10 or 20 years later and lament when nothing terrible happened.  They do so because they continue to suffer from the abuse and maltreatment. Most have post-traumatic stress syndrome.

The children in youth therpy are extremely vulnerable for abuse and their isn't anything our government is doing to prevent.  When reports of abuse come in - it's very eacy for the authorities to just discount everything because "those kids lie and are manipulative." The stories are all too similar and too numerous to discount as lies and manipulations.
The only rational conclusion from all of this is that abuse is widespread in the teen industry.  Some are more abusive than others - namely WWASP programs, Provo Canyon School, Mountain Park, Thayer.  All of these programs have hundreds of survivor reports of abuse.  All survivors report similar maltreatment -- isolation for long periods of time, human take downs for minor violations, broken bones and other injuries as a result of human take downs, forced druggings, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, starvation, sensory deprivation, false imprisonment....Most of the stories from survivors include some of these common abuses.  
These things are a violation of law - because they are wrong and harmful... Yet these things keep happening.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2004, 03:27:00 AM »
They're all just telling the same lies! Wait, thats almost impossible.

Better to just cover it up instead of find out whats wrong, or reform the industry to just prevent it from happening, that would be too much trouble...

When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline spirithelps

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« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2004, 01:07:00 PM »
Deborah, brave ol' Anonymous seems to be a debunker, pure and simple.  You can never argue with a debunker 'cause they use any words necessary and not the truth.  They debunk the truth, twisting and turning as they go.

Toni
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Offline redtail

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« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2004, 06:19:00 PM »
Toni, or spirithelps:  I came to this site on your recommendation as I have considered you an ally and friend in many ways.  I am using a screen name because I believe that as a current worker at a youth program in Utah in is in the best interests of the youth, staff, and myself to remain somewhat anonymous.  I suppose you know that the Federalist Papers which helped get the U.S. Constitution passed were also written with a degree of anonymity under the pen name of "Publius."  So I'm not sure that either James Madison, myself, or the poster here known as Anonymous are doing something wrong.  Preserving the anonymity of our students and ourselves has been encouraged to us by the industry for both student and personal protection.

As a Mormon who has worked with you on other issues, I still have to agree with Anonymous that many of the comments made
about Mormons on this string are offensive to me, largely because I do not see them as true.  I have never in my life been taught in my church or by my parents that sexual or physical abuse of children was desireable or acceptable.  The description of Mormons as "rabid fundamentalists" by Deborah certainly strikes me as both offensive and inaccurate for a large percentage of my faith.  As for my own parents, active, orthodox Mormons their entire life, they have shared their finances amongst themselves, their children, and their fellow creatures to a degree which in my mind qualifies them for the title of saints.  As for the descrimination against women, I have seen the reverse in this industry from women of both Mormon and non-Mormon background.  I have seen fierce, ruthless competition in this industry by women who feel they must prove themselves superior to men in every capacity, by withholding information from me as a man that  felt was important to the doing of my job.  I have had female staff direct me away from the students out of sheer gender jealosy that the female students might learn some relevant skill from a male.  Such is our society today.

In addition, I would say that one of the directors of our company placed himself at risk at the Challenger and North Star programs when he worked there.  If those programs would have listened to his warnings, several deaths would have been avoided.  He testified against them, he is nominally at least Mormon.  One of his associates, a Mormon woman at our company, also worked at some of the early, dangerous companies and has greatly supported my employment because of my attentiveness to safety concerns.  I certainly agree that the company I work with has room for improvement, i could certainly use more training as could other staff.  I just spent two days of training with the company in appropriate handling of unusual occurences.  I have told more fully my story on the thread about youth camping programs.  

While there are rural Mormon families that are overcontrolled by the male spouse, I can tell you firsthand that there are cases where the female spouse is definitely the one in control, financially or otherwise.

As for Mormon control of youth programs, I know that one of the prominent leaders at Aspen Achievement Academy left the Mormon Church because it was't liberal enough, and Gil Hallows at that location is certainly not viewed positively by many local Mormons, who distrust the company.  Gil, incidentally, I think is probably a good man, despite his Mormonism or Aspenism.  I remember him from childhood.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2004, 09:01:00 PM »
To hear views from some former (and current) members of  the LDS (mormons) go here
http://www.exmormon.org
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2004, 10:11:00 PM »
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Offline redtail

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« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2004, 07:23:00 PM »
What's going on here doesn't address the realities of what's happening in all the programs.  There seems to be the belief that all of these programs are some sort of Mormon conspiracy to abuse and brainwash kids.  No doubt there are Mormons as well as others who want to do just that, and they can be found in some of thes programs, perhaps many of them.

The fact is that some of the programs suffer from too little structure and regulation, while others are uptight thought and behavior modification, or have some weird mixture of the two.  They have cells of people who want to give absolute freedom, no rules (which can end up becoming a tyranny of the most popular students and staff) or they are into total suppression of individual freedom by the community (thought control).  You can give students freedom of thought, and a certain amount of freedom of action, and still have some rules of behavior for the safety of the group and individuals.  You can approach behavior problems kindly, or with loving confrontation when necessary.  I think this is what Outback, where I work, is trying to do.

As for Mormonism in these companies, this accusation seems a little off-base to me.  I think I was the only Mormon amongst a dozen or more trainees in my Jan 2001 Aspen Achievement Academy training.  Most of the company leaders seemed more on the liberal, ex-hippy fringe for Utah  My trainer was self-professed gay, opposed to the local Mormon redneck deer hunters.  Sure, people like Gil Hallows have a Mormon background, but they are even called into question by association with the liberal crowd at the Academy.  As a Mormon I cetainly felt a little out of place with all the Buddhism, vegetarianism, Native American stories with no discernable meaning to me at the time.  

My uncles from a nearby town both viewed the Aspen Achievement Academy with suspicion, certainly outside the conservative Mormon local culture.  They're especially suspicious ot the environmental idealists (left-wing) which seem to gravitate to the wilderness schools to commune with nature and children.  Aspen has an uneasy peace with the local Mormon community.  In light of this i find some of the generalizations and conspiracy theories here ludicrous.  

You find the same mixing of culture at Outback, and many of the Mormons that work there would certainly be seen as at the fringes of Mormonism.  They're definitely anti- behavior modification in philosophy to the degree that they have had to struggle with the fact that the new staff (Mormon or non-Mormon) are so liberal that they are reluctant to enforce anything for fear of hurting anyone's relationship.  

Again, I think they're doing a darn good job at looking for a harmony between a safe social order and individual freedom.  I thank you all for helping me see some of the problems out there.  I'll try to do better to be more sensitive to the situation of the students.  But perhaps a few of thes facts can help keep it more real.

On the otherhand I certainly agree with Spirithelps and others that the accumulation of corporate power in the hands of Aspen is a big concern.  Many at Outback were not happy with the sellout to Aspen.  I don't like some of the clauses in the nondisclosure agreement at all.  I certainly believe that power and accountability should coexist

     

[ This Message was edited by: redtail on 2004-11-09 16:30 ]
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