Author Topic: Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons  (Read 18739 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« on: August 19, 2003, 09:42:00 PM »
The question that continues to baffle me is:

Why are white, middle-class, religious/secular, all-American, apple-pie folks

willing to turn their kids over to MORMONS ??

Is this some kind of big cosmic joke... "Ya'll exhiled us to the desert, time for payback. Give us your kids and your money."
They don't even have a gun held to your heads.

It's really quiet humorous.
Deborah
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Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2003, 10:48:00 PM »
no, you didn't just play the race card, did you?  

shame on you blaming every mormon for child abuse.  that's just like catagorizing all of the catholic preists as pedophiles.

i know you didn't just do that
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Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2003, 10:51:00 PM »
What race card?
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Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2003, 12:59:00 AM »
Deborah.

Do you fear a religion outside your own?  Let me guess, Christian?   If some of the staff were Christian, Jewish or Buddhist would it make a difference?
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Offline Deborah

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2003, 01:01:00 PM »
No, I don't fear religions. I do fear the interpretations of idiots within their particular religions, if those beliefs will affect me or others I care about.
If you are going to abdicate responsibility for your child, wouldn't you want to know something about the values and beliefs of the person(s) you're putting in charge?
There may be more similarities than differences between Mormonism and other religions. Seems so to me, but I don't know.
What I do know is that women and children have not historically been treated with respect.
The following links give some insight into the Mormon values that might be passed on to your children, or at the very least, your child will be a victim of. They seem to have no problem with abusing children. Something to think about, or, it would be for me.
Deborah

http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/w ... tm?FACTNet
The following article from the New York Times clearly illustrates a recurring problem within the Mormon Church?child abuse. Child abuse is consistently higher in Utah than in the nation as a whole. It is a blight on Mormonism. Utah social workers have been quoted as being "blackly pessimistic" about the problem in their state.

http://www.mormonalliance.org/caserepor ... 3p1c01.htm
For example, child sexual abuse among Mormons is unquestionably a heinous sin; rules in the Church strongly prohibit it. Thus, it is not first-level abuse. But are there rules or practices that unintentionally foster child sexual abuse in Mormonism? Is it possible that the strong emphasis on the authoritative patriarchal system can do so? Does the emphasis on obedience to authority do so? Does the idealization of Church authorities encourage it? Do others tend to shift the blame from a perpetrator in a position of authority to a victim who has little or less authority?

The long version is more complex but necessary if spiritual abuse is to be distinguished from mere insults, violence, or other forms of hurt: Spiritual abuse is the persistent exploitation by spiritual or ecclesiastical leaders in a religious system of an imbalance of power between the leaders and the followers, whereby the leaders maintain control through the exercise of their authority without adequate accountability by taking actions, making definitions, creating rules, or rendering judgments that are unfair, unequal, or nonreciprocal, while taking advantage of or promoting the inexperience, ignorance, fear, confusion, weakness, or delusion of the followers, in order to perpetuate the power imbalance and thereby gratify temporarily the demands of the leaders or the perceived interests of the ecclesiastical institution to the detriment and at the expense of the spiritual needs, rights, entitlements, dignities, or empowerment of the members.3

 Church emphasis on the Word of Wisdom has provided members with great health benefits. Certainly I believe that obedience to the Word of Wisdom should be encouraged. But such obedience should be given freely, not coerced by making it the price tag to saving ordinances. Similarly tithing is a way to give to the Church, the world, and to God. These are worthy goals. But if saving ordinances are granted only on condition of paying tithing, then how is tithing different from purchase or a bribe?

[Do the last two paragraphs sound familiar? While they are identifying "abuses" in the church, perpetrated by "leaders", the same could be said about WWASP, huh?]

http://www.mormonalliance.org/caserepor ... eports.htm
Case reports of Child Sexual Abuse, among others.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2003, 01:32:00 PM »
Deborah - that's a lot of words for little of nothing important to most people.  If you're referring to the OLD mormon mindset of women being less than a man, that probably still exists somewhere.  A lot of men, regardless of religious preference, are in that category.

Mormon women in modern day society are respected, work in jobs outside the home, including law enforcement, management, own their own companies, etc.  

Try again.  ::heart::
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2003, 04:25:00 PM »
Just like a WWASP/Mormon politician to change the focus of discussion.

So, mormon women are able to work... that's some liberation. Many, I read, are leaving the church due to the continuance of sexism. It's not old news.

We're not here to discuss the liberation or modern Mormon women.
The issue is that of child abuse. If you bothered to read, the highest incidence of child abuse in the nation among Utah Mormons. That's significant and pertinent to me, when considering the fact that many of the program owners and the State Lic Dir are Mormon. Might tend to skew the way they hold children and what is or is not appropriate treatment.

There is also the matter of child sexual abuse which happens all too often among Mormons. There record is rivaling the Catholics.

This may not be important to many people. It's certainly something many others would want to consider before turning their kids over to them.

Deborah
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2003, 05:26:00 PM »
Highest incidence in Utah?  Most of the state is Mormon, so that would make sense.  Are you saying that programs in Utah are abusive because the staff are primarily Mormon?  It may not be obvious to you, but in reading your posts you are afraid of Mormons and you don't even know them?  Is that correct?  Reading is believing I suppose.  Now, on the other hand, I live in a state with many Mormons (not Utah) and their family values are of utmost importance.  They are good people and I wouldn't have known they were Mormon hadthey not told me.  I just knew something incredibly different around them.  The love and caring for their children is very apparent.  

Are there abusive Mormons?  Are there abusive Catholics, Christians, Jews, etc.?  What you fear is your own mirror of what you have within you...as Don Miguel Ruiz says in his book, The Four Agreements.  You do so much reading, this may be a good start to get over yourself.
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Offline Deborah

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2003, 08:24:00 PM »
I've read the book.

You're in violation of #3- Don't make assumptions?
I am not afraid of Mormons.
They, particularly the ones running programs, are not people I'd want my child spending time with. Just as I wouldn't want my child in the care of KKK members or rabid fundamentalists. It's all about values.

The stats on child abuse among Mormons and the stories of abuse in Utah programs, is striking to me. And not something I'd take lightly. Even within the church there are those who are trying to identify what it is about the religion or tradition that supports the abuse of children.

Do you know Aaron Bacon's story?
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:RX ... n&ie=UTF-8

He was severely abused, and died in a Utah program run by Mormons. Had the Lic Dir acted with integrity, who was also Mormon, the boy might be alive today.

http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1 ... _deth.html
Stettler, a devoted Mormon, knew Jaggar and Henry well and says that he trusted them, as fellow Saints, implicitly. After Bacon's death, Stettler's confidence in Jaggar and Henry remained steadfast. He quickly cleared North Star of any wrongdoing and allowed the program to stay in business--which it did for six months, until the state of Utah filed criminal charges in October 1994.

That is not the last time Stettler overlooked violations made by his fellow saints. Looking at his history, my guess is that it wasn't the first either.

After reading the court document, you tell me how these guys can possible qualify for the status of "Saints". You tell me if Henry and Jagger are caretakers or role models you would choose for your child. Perhaps they would benefit from reading the 4 Agreements.

1) Be impeccable with your word;
2) Don't take anything personally;
3) Don't make assumptions;
4) Always do your best.

I might add that Henry got a deferred sentence with probation and was not allowed to work with youth. All the Mormons involved received minimal punishment. The scapegoat was a unemployed Native American they had picked up on the rez.
Shortly after the ordeal, Henry and his mother were working for another program, he in violation of deferred adjudication.

Sounds like you might be in violation of #2 as well. I'm sure there are some wonderful Mormons. Considering the abuse stats and the reports of abuse at programs, it doesn't sound like the better saints are the ones running them.
Deborah
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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Mid American Turns Kids Over to Mormons
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2003, 10:31:00 PM »
Forces of habit: Addiction tough to beat
By Jerry D. Spangler and James Thalman
Deseret News staff writers

Editor's note: Abuse of alcohol and drugs is a Utah epidemic. One out of 20 Utahns has a substance abuse problem needing treatment. The Deseret News examines addiction in a five-part series focused through the eyes of former and current addicts as they run the gantlet of political, social, economic and medical factors associated with those addictions.


http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,380007229,00.html
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2003, 10:33:00 PM »
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2003, 10:43:00 PM »
Deborah - you seem to be defending something that is your personal stuff.  Sit with what you said for a day or two and really see what I'm reading with an open mind.  Is that possible?  I'm reading that you wouldn't want your children around a different religion which happens to be Mormon.  Do you have personal experience with Mormons?  

I know, get on a plane to St. George UT.  Take a walk down the streets of town and report back who is Mormon and who isn't.  Talk to families you've identified as Mormon and share your concerns with them.

What I find laughable  :rofl:  is they have the strongest family values of any religion, outside of Buddhism, that I know personally.

Your words in this thread are worthless until you have personal experience to draw from.  You can post "stories" all day.  You are very good at that!

Being raised as Catholic, I used to feel the same way you do.  There's a great big world outside your little computer.  And it's a lot more interesting.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2003, 10:49:00 PM »
The stats on child abuse may be higher in Utah because of a lower benchmark for what is considered abuse, resulting in more reports.  In some states, like maybe Tennessee, it is okay for a child to be spanked in school.  It may not be so in Utah.  Don't know for sure, just speculation.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2003, 11:34:00 PM »
Anon, you're blowing this WAY out of proportion and addressing issues that aren't pertinent to the point I made; and attempting to make this a prejudice issue. I feel the point is valid. If you don't, then go about your business. Who's "defending" here?

I would not voluntarily turn my child over to anyone whose religious values/beliefs include the abuse of children. Or to anyone who had different values/beliefs than my own.

The stats on Mormons and abuse (go back and read the article) indicate a high occurance of, and possibly an acceptance of, physical and sexual mistreatment of children.

To me, that is important. That is my opinion. I would like to prevent the abuse or death of another teen, under the guise of "therapy". And in case you don't follow the Industry... Utah- Mormon run programs- lead the way in total number of deaths.

What's your stake in this? What are you defending?

I don't personally have anything against Mormons.
I have friends and acquaintences of all persuasions. That doesn't mean I'd turn my kid over to any of them to raise with their values.
Deborah
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2003, 11:50:00 PM »
The stats on child abuse may be higher in Utah because of a lower benchmark for what is considered abuse, resulting in more reports. *************

Speculate on this. Ya think the benchmark is going to be lower in a state that allows 12 and 13 year old girls to be forced into pre-arranged marriages to older male adults in the family.
Gotta love those family values.
I certainly would entertain the possibility if you want to do the research which would prove a lower benchmark.

Did ya read the article?
One little excerpt:
This is the religion of polygamy, patriarchy, and Blood Atonement. Such a culture simply doesn't have the ability to wave a wand of psychobabble over the Church and make everything right. Mormon social problems are systemic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700