LAYNE MEACHAM and PROCTOR ADVOCATE, YES FAMILIES

[Ursus]

You have now mouthed Howard Polsky, Yitzhak, Jerome Miller and me and others who have genuinely tried to move the system along to be more humane.   Nobody knows what you want you are like little Armidinijads or something.  All you want to do is try to terrorize 'program' people as if they were lepers.   You want the immediate closure off all programs.  You have no alternative and you cannot back up your slanders.

Part of the problem, Layne, is you fail to address anyone's questions directly. Instead, mere mention of anyone even remotely connected to you brings forth a torrent of invective and accusations of libel. Believe it or not, I am really trying to wrap my brain around the mindset of what was going on back then when you set about creating your programs Proctor Advocate and Yes, Families.

Could you say a bit more about the host homes or host families? How were they chosen? What was the criteria for training these parents?

I'd also like to hear your thoughts regarding this earlier post:

I'd like to go back to some things you said earlier regarding ideological roots.

Yitzhak Bakal, as far as I can make out, is heavily connected to the juvenile justice system. He studied under Howard Polsky, as did you, at Columbia University's School of Social Work. It is hard for me to believe that Polsky, who wrote Cottage Six: The Social System of Delinquent Boys in Residential Treatment (1962), was unaware of Lloyd McCorkle's seminal work The Highfields story; an experimental treatment project for youthful offenders (1958; co-authors Albert Elias and F. Lovell Bixby). In fact, both of these scholars are oft found in the same assortment of references for investigations of others in the field...

McCorkle was based just 'cross the Hudson river in the New Jersey penal system, and Highfields was an evolution of his ideas on using a therapeutic community modality in the penal system. He had also published on a similar experiment in the adult penal system in 1949. He called his method "Guided Group Interaction." Ever hear of it? Care to comment?

"The peer group acts as a leveler or "equalizer," insuring that its members do not stray too far from its ranks."

Source[/list]

[psy]

Found some more in the archives:

Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 23, 1996

JUDGE UPHOLDS DECISION TO CLOSE YES FAMILIES   
    A controversial center for troubled teens will likely have to close its doors now that an administrative law judge has upheld the Utah Department of Human Services' decision to revoke its license.The state Office of Licensing issued Yes Families a license revocation notice in October, citing violations state officials have described as life-threatening to 24 teenagers in the program.Administrative Law Judge Debbie L. Hann agreed in a ruling this week that Yes Families...

   Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - January 9, 1996

JUDGE TO DECIDE TEEN CENTER'S FATE   
    The future of a Pleasant Grove program for troubled teens that the state wants to shut down rests with an administrative law judge after two days of testimony at the Utah Department of Human Services.The state Office of Licensing issued Yes Families a license revocation notice in October, citing violations state officials have described as life-threatening to 24 teenagers in the program.The four-page notice says Yes Families violated fire-safety codes by having deadbolt locks on...

Wow.  Now that sounds like Straight for some reason.

Well shit.  That article sounds like so much fun i'll just purchase it.

JUDGE TO DECIDE TEEN CENTER'S FATE
Author: Dennis Romboy, Staff Writer

Article Text:

The future of a Pleasant Grove program for troubled teens that the state wants to shut down rests with an administrative law judge after two days of testimony at the Utah Department of Human Services.

The state Office of Licensing issued Yes Families a license revocation notice in October, citing violations state officials have described as life-threatening to 24 teenagers in the program.

The four-page notice says Yes Families violated fire-safety codes by having deadbolt locks on doors, failed to provide criminal and child-abuse background checks on employees, allowed ``host families'' to take in more teenagers than the law permits and teaches teenagers to subdue program peers with a physical ``four-point restraint.''

Yes Families appealed the revocation, leading to the hearing Monday and Tuesday before Administrative Law Judge Debbie L. Hann. Hann will review testimony rendered during the informal proceeding, at which hearsay is admissible, and issue a ruling in about a month.

Much of Monday's testimony centered on how a state licensing team conducted a 1995 review of Yes Families, a daytime drug-and-alcohol treatment and behavior modification program for teenagers.

Layne Meacham, who founded the program under the name Proctor Advocate eight years ago, contends the state's review was carried out in retaliation for lawsuits he has filed against the Department of Human Services. He also said the state misinterprets laws he believes are vague and poorly written, especially regarding the use of deadbolt locks and teenagers physically restraining other teenagers.

``I want to obey the rules and the code, not somebody's philosophy or belief,'' he said. During a break in the hearing, he described the state's license review team as a ``hit squad.''

Carol Verdoia, an assistant attorney general arguing the state's case, said Meacham's resistance to the Office of Licensing's review comes down to one thing.

``The bottom line is you just don't want anyone scrutinizing your program,'' she told Meacham during the hearing.

State licensing specialist L.J. Dustman testified that he was initially refused entry to the Yes Families building on the three times he and other review team members showed up unannounced.

State officials have the right to visit such programs without warning. Each visit resulted in a shouting match with Meacham or other staff members. Dustman, who says he was threatened with bodily harm, said the encounters hindered the state's ability to review the program.

``(Meacham) was irritated we showed up unannounced,'' Dustman said.

Meacham said he has no problem with surprise visits, but that state officials promised him in late 1994 or early 1995 that they would make appointments before showing up. He said the state rushed to judgment in trying to close Yes Families.

``The didn't give us a chance to comply,'' he said.

Yes Families director Yvonne Villanueva, who quit in November, said that in response to the state's complaints, deadbolt locks were removed from doors, the number of teenagers staying with host families was pared to four per household and that she provided the state with criminal background checks of employees, host families and program board members. Vil-la-nueva did admit the teenagers are taught to use ``four-point'' holds - a prone, spread-eagle position in which a teenager is held down.

``We feel like it was the better way to handle the situation,'' she said.

Dustman said Yes Families has yet to comply with the violations the state has identified. He testified that he believes Meacham is unable to adequately run the program and that he can't verify the health and safety of teenagers in it.

Diana Hollis, an investigator with the state criminal justice division, testified that Meacham intimidated teenagers in the program just before she interviewed several of them during a September visit. She said she heard Meacham in a ``loud and overbearing voice'' say, ``What are you going to tell them, that I abused you?''

Meacham admitted Monday that he does have a temper and that his conduct is sometimes inappropriate, but has earlier denied all allegations of abuse.

I'll probably search some more.  If I find anything interesting I'll post it here for discussion.

[Inculcated]

Heir Direktor,  (Layne/debuffet)

You’ve stated a lot judgmental presumptions about the people gathered here. You have projected some rambling confabulations based on your narrow minded speculations about individuals you’ve chosen to target. (Right down to how Psy might take his coffee?!)

You even make dismissive remarks of a classist nature that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, other than reflecting derivatives of the limitations of your own prejudgments.

You didn’t bother to take the time to notice the area of the Fornits Forum that is dedicated to the government run gulags, before deciding erroneously that this was an excluded topic.
 
Your demands for disclosure have been politely been responded to. It has been pointed out that all of the pertinent information you have requested/ demanded is available to you within the forum. Yet, still you imply that there is some reticence.

You have decided that your time in a prison cell has given you some exclusive insights? You peel off insults about pampered programs as if unwilling to attempt to understand that the concept of building the prison within a person’s mind is no less harmful than physical brutality.

You seem to think you’re “reform position” against how juvenile justice is dealt in this country makes your program alternative something harmless or even helpful by comparison. That’s pretty damn reductive and self serving reasoning to say the least. By the content of your posts I can see that such is an area you’re in need of some introspection on.

As you may well know, many of the earliest TC’s in this country were built on the shaky ground of “good intentions” and employed with the harshest qualities of the ends justifying the means. The poison you’re peddling isn’t new. It’s just been repackaged to suit your agenda.

If you really intend to have a proactive discussion about what changes are needed to be brought, and how to best approach that, there’s a better way. You should state your case as openly and passionately as you believe (without the snarky little asides). Allow the exchange of ideas to emerge with reciprocal respect.

Empfang, Wir hören zu

(Edited a redundant sentence)

[Troubled Turd]

Many out of control youth who are using drugs, having sex with their dealers for drugs and generally conduct disordered have harbored resentments towards program providers. Isn't it time they grew out of their resentments and went on with their lives.

If I wanted to hear from an asshole, I'd fart.

[psy]

A few more articles.

Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT)

March 1, 1989
   
Edition: Utah Central
Section: News
Page: A8

USED FORCE, LOVE IN THERAPY, DEFENDANT SAYS

Dateline: WEST VALLEY CITY (AP)

Article Text:

Layne Richard Meacham, accused of abusing a patient in his Proctor Advocate program for troubled youths, acknowledged that his therapy involves force but said his methods were based on love.

Meacham, a licensed social worker and founder of the controversial program, testified in his own defense after prosecutors rested their case in his misdemeanor child abuse trial in 3rd Circuit Court.

A 17-year-old former patient accused Meacham of forcing her to stand lock-kneed for 90 minutes during a therapy session while other teenagers called her names. The session ended after the girl became so ill she vomited blood and was taken to a hospital, she said.

Meacham, describing himself as a child advocate, said his program combines tough love and reality therapy - a mix of philosophies he derived from other programs across the country and from books accepted by social workers.

``The only way you're going to get kids better is to put a kid in a reformer role and give them authority. So we set up a pro-social reformer environment that is essentially run by kids,'' he said Tuesday.

Force and involuntary involvement are a necessary part of therapy, Meacham said, and requiring patients to stand at attention during confrontational sessions enables them to assume control of themselves.

He said the confrontations are supervised, but he acknowledged he was not present for most of the session involving the alleged victim.

However, he said he never forced her to stand and did not direct anyone else to do so. When told the girl had vomited, he said, ``I didn't think vomiting was that big a deal because usually when kids come in after running away they are drunk.''

But he said he became alarmed when he learned the girl was coughing up blood and telephoned her mother. The woman told him she couldn't leave work and he promised to take care of the situation, Meacham said.

Meacham said he began working in state youth corrections after he returned from service in the Marine Corps in Vietnam in the late 1960s. He also admitted being an alcoholic, but said he has attended Alcoholics Anonymous meetings regularly and has not had a drink in 21/2 years.

Another defense witness, Melroy B. Harward, testified he worked with Meacham while the defendant was employed by the state and Harward was a social worker at the Provo Canyon School.

He said Meacham has ``no reputation of being a child abuser,'' and that his practice of having youths stand at attention was not unusual.

``Standing is an accepted method of gaining control. . . You have to use confrontation with youth regularly,'' Harward said. However, he said the atmosphere requires warmth and concern and should be non-judgmental.

``If a program or an individual doesn't indicate love or make them feel love you are not going to be successful,'' he said.

Meacham said during his testimony that he loves all his young charges, including his accuser.

``I probably told every kid in there I love them,'' he said.

During cross-examination by prosecutor Keith Stoney outlined a series of controversies involving Proctor Advocate, at one point confronting Mea-cham for allegedly bragging to his patients that he could ``beat'' the court system.

Copyright (c) 1989 Deseret News Publishing Company
Record Number: 8903010143

Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT)

November 18, 1990
   
Edition: Metro
Section: News
Page: B9

COUNSELOR TO DELAY LICENSE BID AS STATE AGREES TO DISMISS ABUSE CHARGES
Author: Matthew Brown, Staff Writer

Article Text:

The founder of a controversial youth counseling center has agreed not to apply for a clinical social worker license until 1992 in exchange for the state dismissing charges he abused teenagers under his care, a stipulation and order said.

The stipulation issued by the state Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing said Layne R. Meacham can have a petition to sanction his social work license dismissed if he abides by conditions of the agreement.

The petition filed in 1989 accuses Meacham of physically and verbally abusing youths placed in his former South Salt Lake counseling program, Proctor Advocate. The petition details incidents of Meacham tackling and wrestling with patients, making them stand for hours and calling them names.

Meacham also divulged confidential information about two of his clients, according to the petition, which charges him with 10 counts of unprofessional conduct.

The stipulation settling the charges said Meacham denies the allegations made against him.

Criminal charges were filed against Meacham by one of the teenage patients at Proctor Advocate. She said Meacham forced her to stand lock-kneed for 90 minutes until she vomited and had to be hospitalized.

A jury found Meacham guilty of a misdemeanor count of abuse. But Judge Michael K. Burton nullified the verdict, citing errors in the trial and jury instructions.

West Valley prosecutor Keith Stoney filed a second complaint more than one year ago, but a new trial has yet to be scheduled.

Meacham was not at the Provo office and did not return calls Friday.

Copyright (c) 1990 Deseret News Publishing Company
Record Number: 9011170351

Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT)

September 21, 1989
   
Edition: Metro
Section: News
Page: B4

NEW CHILD ABUSE TRIAL SET

Dateline: WEST VALLEY CITY

Article Text:

An Oct. 11 trial in West Valley Circuit Court was set Monday after Proctor Advocate founder Layne Meacham pleaded not guilty to one count of child abuse - again.

Meacham was tried and found guilty of one misdemeanor count of abuse in March after city prosecutors accused him of mistreating a 16-year-old female patient in his program for troubled teens. But 3rd Circuit Judge Michael K. Burton nullified the trial in May, citing errors in the trial and during jury instructions.

West Valley City Prosecutor Keith Stoney said Monday the girl and her parents still wanted to pursue charges, so a second complaint was filed Aug. 24. Meacham was arraigned on the refiled charges Monday morning.

Copyright (c) 1989 Deseret News Publishing Company
Record Number: 8909210005

[psy]

Now...  either there was some huge conspiracy against you or the task force truly felt you were a danger to kids.  How did the lawsuit go?

Oh, he won a settlement in that one, as he rightfully should. It was simply egregious how Utah was going about assuming everyone was guilty by accusation alone. And distributing that judgment to any interested party. It wasn't just Meacham that was affected by that policy, there were thousands of people on that "secret registry" that didn't even know it, but it was Meacham who had the cajones to go up against Utah's old boy network of social service professionals. That much I'll give him.

I'd totally agree.  Everybody deserves due process.  That being said, based on what seems to have actually been going on based on what i've read, i'd have to agree with what the Utah state concluded: he was a danger, even if he believed he was doing the best for the kids (which I totally believe he did).  Doesn't make it right, but I can understand why they made the decision and I don't think it was some conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

Now...  either there was some huge conspiracy against you or the task force truly felt you were a danger to kids.  How did the lawsuit go?

Oh, he won a settlement in that one, as he rightfully should. It was simply egregious how Utah was going about assuming everyone was guilty by accusation alone. And distributing that judgment to any interested party. It wasn't just Meacham that was affected by that policy, there were thousands of people on that "secret registry" that didn't even know it, but it was Meacham who had the cajones to go up against Utah's old boy network of social service professionals. That much I'll give him.

I'd totally agree.  Everybody deserves due process.  That being said, based on what seems to have actually been going on based on what i've read, i'd have to agree with what the Utah state concluded: he was a danger, even if he believed he was doing the best for the kids (which I totally believe he did).  Doesn't make it right, but I can understand why they made the decision and I don't think it was some conspiracy.

Well Phil maybe you should have been the Federal and State judges because they ultimately did not agree with you.   The state case was thrown out and the Federal court agreed with my pleadings and the state had to give me $35,000.  

Why won't you deliver the evidence Layne Meacham having been sued multiple times.   The cases you are referring to I won and was even paid money just like you were for the girl at Kids.   Why won't you tell us what your take on that deal was and why did you try to deny that you are Ursus?  

WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE.   PHIL THINKS WE SHOULD ALL BE FOUND GUILTY BY ACCUSATION.  Isn't that what all your parents did to you and to you Psy.  They did not like your sexual preferences and found you guilty of being Gay,  very predjudicial just like you are treating me now.    An the big bad bear who denied his beardom thrice still won't tell us how much dough he netted off of the last fornit he represented.

NOW IS THAT ALL YOU HAVE PHIL ELBERG OF MEDVIG IN NEWWARK AND MICHAEL CRAWFORD IN PARIS FRANCE

Go back on line and get those pooper scoopers busy. But until you get honest, I'm not interested in this waste of back and forth.   And Phil Elberg your office said you were on vacation.  Don't you have a family to attend to.   Shouldn't you be spending more time with them so they don't end up in a Gulag.

You've already condemned me with your little witch hunt so the next time we meet will be in court, the Jersey Bar, or hopefully on the CBC for a 6th Element.

You have delivered nothing to support your libelous statements. NADA.  Call the AG's office to confirm the payout to Meacham and my status.  Good luck and good ambulance chasing.  Good luck making a dent in PURE's intakes with your F---Wad squad you encourage.  She'll fill all the programs thanks to the nature of the people on this site.

Carry on,

Dubuffet

[psy]

Well, so now the Big Bad Bear wants anonymity, and Michael Crawford wants no treatment regardless, kind of an anarchist, or nihilism type of deal.

No.  It's a respect for individual liberties going hand in hand with individual responsibility.

You have all gone back to hiding and taking cowardly pot shots.  You have now mouthed Howard Polsky, Yitzhak, Jerome Miller and me and others who have genuinely tried to move the system along to be more humane.

Humane?  By whose definition.  I recommend you read C.S Lewis's essay "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment". Hint: He was arguing against the so-called humanitarians.

Nobody knows what you want you are like little Armidinijads or something.  All you want to do is try to terrorize 'program' people as if they were lepers.   You want the immediate closure off all programs.

Many do, and not just on ideological grounds.  There is the practical side of things too.

Now Ursus am I getting too close and you don't like it, I will be calling your office in a few minutes to see if you are still the Phil Elberg, Crawford said you were, maybe you have just turned to chicken shit.

If I said that it was followed and preceded by "LOL".  I'm sorry if the sarcasm didn't translate well.  Ursus is NOT Phil Elberg, but you're welcome to call Phil.

So Psy you did not respond to the Che action idea of getting something done in congress

I'm against regulation for various reasons.  It just doesn't work and gives parents a false sense of security.  Unless Che Gookin has somehow suddenly changed his mind, i'm quite sure he is as well.

so I know who and what you are now, a damn cry baby that only wants to have tantrums and maybe you do need some time out, hell maybe your parents put you in Benchmark for more serious things than you were not willing to admit to.

Well.  You can believe whatever you want.  To me you seem very hot and cold.  First your're nice, then you start to insult.  It's like you're seeking some sort of reaction.

If your parents saw this site just before they admitted you, they sure as hell would not have been hindered in their decision, they would have been encouraged!

My parents read this site.  They're also quite proud of what I've accomplished in my personal fight with Benchmark and so forth.

I know you are cajone challenged because you go along the the ambulance chasing Elberg with the mouthing of Yitzhak, Jerry and Howard, people that moved away from lock up.   As far as all this group peer pressure you are all horrified about, what the hell  do you think this  Stephan King Bug sight is doing, its pure liquid synanon.

No.  It's not.  You can turn off the computer screen at any time you choose or navigate away from the site.  In a program you cannot do that and are forced to endure.

Phil Elberg hasn't done shit.   All he wants to do is malign and mouth good people

Right...  and based on your reaction to Phil's commentary in the CBC documentary, i'm fairly sure you think Miller Newton is "Good People"

and the news is, in case you are so closed under your keyboards like fornits,  parents with acting out kids aren't going to take you seriously as you put it.  In fact the more cry baby mouthing and drive by anonymous little Rim Job remarks you post the more the parents will gravitate to Benchmark, and Cinnamon Stick.  The parents know how to read and will look at the immature dirty little remarks on this rag  talk to the woman at PURE.

That's possible.  But hopefully parents don't judge all posters based on the words of a few.  In any case this is a discussion forum and does not cator to the whims of parents or anybody else.  The "no moderation" stance here draws flack equally from all directions, which makes it seem to me like we're doing something right.

Now what do you think is going to be the outcome.  YOU psy with this bug crap site are literally putting kids into Cinnamon Stick, Jeckle and Hyde School and Benchmark.

No.  Individual posters might be, but I'm not responsible for their words, nor is Antigen, the owner of this site.  In any case, there are plenty of "parent-friendly" websites out there such as isaccorp or cafety.

And I know you look up to Phil but he is not helping.

I respect Phil and yes, I do look up to him.  Do I agree with him all the time or follow him blindly?  Of course not.  We've had quite a few disagreements.

He's too busy looking for a Plaintiff!  I know, I have been out in the world a little longer than most of you and Elberg would not turn down a lushish Plaintiff with the prospects of he and his firm netting millions.

As much as I firmly believe Phil would love to do more pro-bono work, I know he does need to make money...  I see no problem with that.

By the way Phil what was your lawfirms cut on the $4,500,000.  Arn't you just fishing and ambulance chasing to try to find another plaintiff so you can net another $2mil.  Bet you never thought you had been used like that Psy.  This Phil dude is trying to find another program with insurance that has brutilized some kid and who he can make another big publishers clearing house jack pot.

If you knew him better you wouldn't say that.  He's given up a lot to pursue this.

He really is, you may not be experienced or old enough to see the obvious conflict of interest.  Phil Elberg is ambulance chasing and you are his lead dog to sniff out possible cases.  I'll say it to his law partners face in a few minutes.

LOL.  I don't doubt you will.

Now Psy, maybe you can be salvaged.   The fact is there is no smoking gun on Meacham.  No dockets no Miller Newton sleep overs like with Captain Kirk and the other dude in Boston Legal.

Actually, you may very well be wrong about that based on what I've heard.  The trick to anything like this is to keep your best cards closest to your chest.  I would be careful to make sure anything you deny is accurate.

And Crawford why don't you give me your cell in France and I can talk to you.

Sure thing.  You can call me on my cell at 571 277 5341 (preferably not, since it's roaming) or on my Skype landline (my computer) at 802 332 6472.  Leave a voicemail if I'm not there (on my skype number pls... dont' really check my cell's voicemail).

But I don't believe any of you are going to get off your asses at the coffee shop, game room, or from behind your computers and introduce legislation.

You'd be wrong about that.  Back when the legislation was first proposed I was a fan.  I was even at the first GAO hearings in DC.  If you watch the video closely you might see me in the audience.  Then i read the bill and realized it was totally toothless.  Then it got blasted to bits even more.  Even still there was no way it could pass.

Your too wounded, handicapped and too full of hate and resentment.

No.  If anything what's been going on since the GAO hearings and failure of legislation for a lot of people has just been depression.  People have sort of lost hope but that will change.

Call me when you are ready to make permanent real change in due process.

That would be a good start, actually.  Let me ask you this: even if kids suddenly gain the ability to deny medical treatment without their consent (they do in some states, and in other states for some things)...  what is to stop a facility from claiming it's simply a school to the state?  What is to stop a "school" from holding kids against their will.  How do you encourage the local law enforcement to do their jobs when there is often simply not the will and a lot of sympathy for the program itself?

[psy]

Now...  either there was some huge conspiracy against you or the task force truly felt you were a danger to kids.  How did the lawsuit go?

Oh, he won a settlement in that one, as he rightfully should. It was simply egregious how Utah was going about assuming everyone was guilty by accusation alone. And distributing that judgment to any interested party. It wasn't just Meacham that was affected by that policy, there were thousands of people on that "secret registry" that didn't even know it, but it was Meacham who had the cajones to go up against Utah's old boy network of social service professionals. That much I'll give him.

I'd totally agree.  Everybody deserves due process.  That being said, based on what seems to have actually been going on based on what i've read, i'd have to agree with what the Utah state concluded: he was a danger, even if he believed he was doing the best for the kids (which I totally believe he did).  Doesn't make it right, but I can understand why they made the decision and I don't think it was some conspiracy.

Well Phil maybe you should have been the Federal and State judges because they ultimately did not agree with you.   The state case was thrown out and the Federal court agreed with my pleadings and the state had to give me $35,000.  

I think you misread.  He agreed, as did I, with your side of the case!

And PS: Ursus is NOT PHIL! for the last time!

[Anonymous]

You've already condemned me with your little witch hunt so the next time we meet will be in court, the Jersey Bar, or hopefully on the CBC for a 6th Element.
Carry on,

Dubuffet

:shamrock: You’ll need some luck with that you charmless fool.
Way ta’ represent.
Please, post a copy of your complaint on fornits.
Your levities are good lols and risibility is healing.

[Ursus]

Why won't you tell us what your take on that deal was and why did you try to deny that you are Ursus?

Did Phil's office try to deny that he was Ursus? Tut Tut. Imagine that.

[Anonymous]

You've already condemned me with your little witch hunt so the next time we meet will be in court, the Jersey Bar, or hopefully on the CBC for a 6th Element.
Carry on,

Dubuffet

:shamrock: You’ll need some luck with that you charmless fool.
Way ta’ represent.
Please, post a copy of your complaint on fornits.
Your levities are good lols and risibility is healing.

Now what is your interest in attacking me.  Have you spent any time getting to know me or are you part of the little inquisition panel that automatically sides with your guru Phil Elberg because he is a big lawyer that got 2mil for his law firm and didn't give it all to the save the children foundation.

Why don't you ask your guru Phil why he doesn't want to debate me on CBC.  Maybe you would like to.  Why would you use a handle like LItigator.  Are you even a member of the bar or do you just think you are a wonderful legal mind.  Which institution were you interred at, what is your name, put up or shut  up.


Oh and Psy I forgot to tell you we charged L.J Dustman for abuse he had a 350 pound employee knock over a girl while he busted into a girls group that was disclosing their sexual abuses.  The girl had damage to her arm and had it in a sling for a while.   Verdoia the AG who made the comment was sued by me and she gave me 5K (confirm at the A.G.'s office).

Don't forget to find the Judge Brian Ruling that eviserated Debbie Hahns ruling (she was a social services paid adm. law Judge).  NOw litigator did you know the big bad bear tried to deny he was Ursus to me.   And you have all these years struggled to gain his respect and called yourself the litigator and tried to use esoteric legal language to impress your leader Phil Elberg.  Hell he ought to use some of the 2mil to hire you as a paralegal, of course you would be useless because you have no guts to give us all your name and where you were locked up and for what.  At least you didn't call me a F--- wad or anything.  You ought to get hold of F---wad or Rim Job and have them teach you how to use profanity over the interstate network.

CIAO

LItigator 2, formerly anti defamation league and now Dubuffet.

Carry on.

P.S. Michael Crawford and Phil Elberg of Elberg and Medved be sure to get......THE REST OF THE STORY ON PROGRAM CLOSURE.....JUDGE BRIAN THIRD DISTRICT COURT.  ANY SIGN OF THOSE CASE NUMBERS ON THE CIVIL ACTIONS PHIL?   REMEMBER CALL ME ANYTIME!

[psy]

THE REST OF THE STORY ON PROGRAM CLOSURE

Well.  Why don't you tell us your side of the story?  If you have court documents you want published just email em to me at [email protected] and i'll make sure they get posted in this thread at your request.

[Anonymous]

Some recommended reading:

And PS: Ursus is NOT PHIL! for the last time!

The devil is in the details.

[Anonymous]

Some recommended reading:

And PS: Ursus is NOT PHIL! for the last time!

The devil is in the details.

THE REST OF THE STORY ON PROGRAM CLOSURE

Well.  Why don't you tell us your side of the story?  If you have court documents you want published just email em to me at [email protected] and i'll make sure they get posted in this thread at your request.

So Michael Crawford you are not willing to search for the positive, just the negative.  If you put a minute for every hour you put into trying to eviserate me into seeking the whole truth, hell you would have appologized by now.   And why won't you force Phil Elberg to give us the amount he pocketed off Miller and why won't you respond to the question of legislation.  And why won't you seek the truth, it wasn't me that lied, it was your leader Elberg that started this.  He should bring the truth, the evidence to support his defamations.   Its like saying all gays are child molestors etc.   What if we had your Medical Record from Benchmark.  Would it all be accurate or could some of the staff confabulated to keep the insurance comming.  Will you post your chart, I will post mine from the lock up I was in.

I guess were done here, no action, nothing positive just maligning and slander and then putting the obligation to prove the slander is false on the shoulders of the defamed.  Good system of justice.   And yet Michael you and your fornits are all squeeling that you were denied justice.  It ends with Ursus denying he is Elberg and with Michael Crawford only putting out the accussations never the vindications..   You ought to be a reporter.  You really have a good predisposition for it.

I think I have made my case about the character of your fornits, the gutlessness of Phil Elberg and his money grubbing motives and his hidden 2mil and your need to just keep this rag rolling because you have nothing else to do, hell you have been on line for 4 days now.  I don't believe you want change or legislation, just a lot of strokes for this never ending toilet paper roll.  Tell Phil and F--- Wad and Rim JOb an Litagator to put up or shut up and I have proven my case that you have no credibility.

Carry on,

Dubuffet