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Author Topic: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP  (Read 13230 times)

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Offline katfish

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2009, 04:11:52 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Ursus"
No reason to go into depth about it (unless the situation calls for it), but it could be used as a good reminder that there really aren't any reliable studies out there proving any kind of efficacy of treatment methods currently employed by this industry.

If it comes up, I'll simply state as fact that there aren't any reliable studies (independent peer reviewed and double blind).  They know it to be true.  No point in provocation if unnecessary.

And indicating that what is known is many interventions used are harmful...
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Offline katfish

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2009, 04:17:18 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "katfish"
Long and short of it, this topic is not left out in CAFETY's presentations
That's good to hear.

What about the ethics of forced treatment.  What's CAFETY's official stance on that?

Right to consent essential.  That's one of out state advocacy positions - to model after Washington State. Charley (On CAFETY's board) and Lorrin Gerhing (who sat on CAFETY's board and with Youth Move) played an instrumental role in the passing of this legislation. We'd like to see all states follow the lead of Washington State.

http://cafety.org/board

http://cafety.org/research/121-research ... huffine-md

http://cafety.org/on-coercion/145-on-co ... huffine-md
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Offline katfish

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #122 on: July 03, 2009, 04:25:00 PM »
..
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Offline katfish

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #123 on: July 03, 2009, 04:26:01 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "katfish"
Wow, that is strange... It would be like John Mercer asking me to present about my experiences to NATSAP...

Ya.  It's strange for me too.  I was at a NATSAP member program.

Quote
Perhaps sharing this info with Ken and challenging him would be a good place to start, Mike?  I don't think it would be wise to go into this with all these questions about Ken's own ethics.


Quote
As a side note, I recall who irked me that was NATSAP related at the APA conference: it was Behrens, the researcher who did that 'study' on Aspen programs and claimed this was sufficient data to suggest they worked.  Fortunately, a few shrinks over that work w/ CAFETY and ASTART have been working on discrediting this. There are multiple issue with the 'study'... so hopefully that will be a piece made publicly available soon.  But, yes, re: Behrens - her sloppy work and lack of disclosure that she worked for Aspen call into questions her ethics.  She's yucky.

I don't think anybody thinks that study is credible.  I'd say there's no need to put another nail in that coffin but it never hurts with this industry.

Brave soul. And bravo!  For real, I admire you.

I disagree, they use this as a selling point all the time and really need to stop and clarify, in my opinion.  It's misleading.

http://www.aspeneducation.com/outcomes.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... f&oq=&aqi=
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead

Offline Ursus

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #124 on: July 03, 2009, 05:11:26 PM »
Quote from: "katfish"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Ursus"
No reason to go into depth about it (unless the situation calls for it), but it could be used as a good reminder that there really aren't any reliable studies out there proving any kind of efficacy of treatment methods currently employed by this industry.
If it comes up, I'll simply state as fact that there aren't any reliable studies (independent peer reviewed and double blind).  They know it to be true.  No point in provocation if unnecessary.
And indicating that what is known is many interventions used are harmful...

Absolutely.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2009, 05:24:16 PM »
Quote from: "katfish"
Quote from: "psy"
What about the ethics of forced treatment.  What's CAFETY's official stance on that?
Right to consent essential.  That's one of out state advocacy positions - to model after Washington State. Charley (On CAFETY's board) and Lorrin Gerhing (who sat on CAFETY's board and with Youth Move) played an instrumental role in the passing of this legislation. We'd like to see all states follow the lead of Washington State.

http://cafety.org/board

http://cafety.org/research/121-research ... huffine-md

http://cafety.org/on-coercion/145-on-co ... huffine-md

An unfortunate side effect of that is that Washington State probably exports many youth to residential programs elsewhere. So much for community-based treatment.

I am not, however, in Washington State and therefore can not really speak for what goes on there as far as a community mindset is concerned. Perhaps if more states followed Washington's lead, a more systemic philosophical shift could be seen?

Also... lack of forced treatment and "informed consent" can be relative terms, when you are dealing with people who have vested interests. If everyone and their uncle is of the mind that you should be sent away to such-and-such, and you're a kid who aims to please... well, ya might think you're informed, and ya might think you consent, but are and do you really?
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #126 on: July 03, 2009, 05:43:14 PM »
Hey Guest who asked about me... Are you Dee?


Throw me an e-mail if you like.. [email protected]


Paul


PS Sorry to interrupt the thread.
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Offline Froderik

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perverted by language
« Reply #127 on: July 03, 2009, 05:51:23 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Also... lack of forced treatment and "informed consent" can be relative terms, when you are dealing with people who have vested interests. If everyone and their uncle is of the mind that you should be sent away to such-and-such, and you're a kid who aims to please... well, ya might think you're informed, and ya might think you consent, but are and do you really?
Thought provoking....
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Offline katfish

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Re: perverted by language
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2009, 06:07:34 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Also... lack of forced treatment and "informed consent" can be relative terms, when you are dealing with people who have vested interests. If everyone and their uncle is of the mind that you should be sent away to such-and-such, and you're a kid who aims to please... well, ya might think you're informed, and ya might think you consent, but are and do you really?
Thought provoking....

Yes, my personal position follows Minkowitz's line of thinking.  The use of coercion, intimidation, or punishment for any reason related to a disability based discrimination (on the basis of mental health) is unacceptable, oppressive and paternalistic - at the end of the day, is akin to torture.  But with youth, in particular, it's difficult because youth are so vulnerable to being influenced, agreed.  But there are ways around that, namely the expectation that youth, like adults, are given (by law) all the information and able to decide - w/o the use of coercion, intimidation, or punishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rASg_Pgw ... r_embedded

At the end of the day, its really a powerplay... so I do believe that a culture of change, where youth are PARTNERS and collaborators in their own care and domestic legislative changes consistent with the CRPD and CRC will take us in the right direction...

Speaking of the CRPD - Here's info on a Human Rights Teach-In Tour, in case anyone is in the area:

http://www.usnusp.org/upcoming_events
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead
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