If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP

[psy]

I asked you if Ken Huey invited you before, and you ignored  my question .


Strange.

Cause Ginger already answered that in her post.  It's not a secret or something.  Read more carefully.

[Anonymous]

[psy]

Could be, but I can't think of a convincing reason not to do it.  It's not like they're going to gun us down on stage.

[katfish]

What was the response of NATSAP, Mike?  Did they seem receptive to you speaking?

Receptive?  Not entirely sure.  They're willing to consider it and Ken Huey is pushing them to accept.  His view is that while we disagree on how to help the kids, we all agree that the kids could benefit from sharing of ideas about treatment...  even if those ideas are contrary to what most, if not all, of the audience members hold dear.

Ken Huey of West Ridge Academy?

[psy]

What was the response of NATSAP, Mike?  Did they seem receptive to you speaking?

Receptive?  Not entirely sure.  They're willing to consider it and Ken Huey is pushing them to accept.  His view is that while we disagree on how to help the kids, we all agree that the kids could benefit from sharing of ideas about treatment...  even if those ideas are contrary to what most, if not all, of the audience members hold dear.

Ken Huey of West Ridge Academy?

Ken Huey of CALO, though he might have been at West Ridge prior to starting CALO.

[katfish]

What was the response of NATSAP, Mike?  Did they seem receptive to you speaking?

Receptive?  Not entirely sure.  They're willing to consider it and Ken Huey is pushing them to accept.  His view is that while we disagree on how to help the kids, we all agree that the kids could benefit from sharing of ideas about treatment...  even if those ideas are contrary to what most, if not all, of the audience members hold dear.

Ken Huey of West Ridge Academy?

Ken Huey of CALO, though he might have been at West Ridge prior to starting CALO.

Yea, he was at WRA I believe:

http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5382.shtml

And of course, the testimonies suggest that he is less than ethical, complicit in maltreatment of youth (see testimonies):

http://www.mormongulag.com/

Guess he's now here:

http://caloteens.com/staff.aspx

Interesting... Well, I hope that Ken's intentions are not misleading and please keep us posted!

[Ursus]

What was the response of NATSAP, Mike?  Did they seem receptive to you speaking?

Receptive?  Not entirely sure.  They're willing to consider it and Ken Huey is pushing them to accept.  His view is that while we disagree on how to help the kids, we all agree that the kids could benefit from sharing of ideas about treatment...  even if those ideas are contrary to what most, if not all, of the audience members hold dear.

Ken Huey of West Ridge Academy?

Ken Huey of CALO, though he might have been at West Ridge prior to starting CALO.

Yes. Ken Huey of Provo Canyon School, then of West Ridge Academy, now of CALO.

[Ursus]

@Kat: do a fornits search for CALO, and you'll find plenty of recent muckety-muck.

[katfish]

What was the response of NATSAP, Mike?  Did they seem receptive to you speaking?

Receptive?  Not entirely sure.  They're willing to consider it and Ken Huey is pushing them to accept.  His view is that while we disagree on how to help the kids, we all agree that the kids could benefit from sharing of ideas about treatment...  even if those ideas are contrary to what most, if not all, of the audience members hold dear.

Ken Huey of West Ridge Academy?

Ken Huey of CALO, though he might have been at West Ridge prior to starting CALO.

Yes. Ken Huey of Provo Canyon School, then of West Ridge Academy, now of CALO.

Wow, that is strange... It would be like John Mercer asking me to present about my experiences to NATSAP...

Perhaps sharing this info with Ken and challenging him would be a good place to start, Mike?  I don't think it would be wise to go into this with all these questions about Ken's own ethics.

As a side note, I recall who irked me that was NATSAP related at the APA confernece: it was Behrens, the reasearcher who did that 'study' on Aspen programs and claimed this was sufficient data to suggest they worked.  Fortunately, a few shrinks that work w/ CAFETY and ASTART have been working on discrediting this. There are multiple issue with the 'study'... so hopefully that will be a piece made publicly available soon.  But, yes, re: Behrens - her sloppy work and lack of disclosure that she worked for Aspen call into questions her ethics and was/is infuriating.  She's yucky.

[katfish]

@Kat: do a fornits search for CALO, and you'll find plenty of recent muckety-muck.

Thanks!!!

[psy]

Wow, that is strange... It would be like John Mercer asking me to present about my experiences to NATSAP...

Ya.  It's strange for me too.  I was at a NATSAP member program.

Perhaps sharing this info with Ken and challenging him would be a good place to start, Mike?  I don't think it would be wise to go into this with all these questions about Ken's own ethics.

I haven't.  He could be a Moral Busybody or a Robber Baron.  In either case, myself and Ginger won't be there to speak to him specifically (we've already done that) or about any program specifically (except when citing certain cases, such as CEDU's propheets, est, lifespring, etc...  origins of the industry).  I will mention that the techniques used way way back then are still in use today and if it's appropriate, I'll use specifics.  MBA is probably the best documented example of this (with the article in Time).  Although they claim to have stopped using their methods, IIRC, they still exist elsewhere.  I'm hoping you'd have more up-to-date information on that.

As a side note, I recall who irked me that was NATSAP related at the APA confernece: it was Behrens, the reasearcher who did that 'study' on Aspen programs and claimed this was sufficient data to suggest they worked.  Fortunately, a few shrinks over that work w/ CAFETY and ASTART have been working on discrediting this. There are multiple issue with the 'study'... so hopefully that will be a piece made publicly available soon.  But, yes, re: Behrens - her sloppy work and lack of disclosure that she worked for Aspen call into questions her ethics.  She's yucky.

I don't think anybody thinks that study is credible.  I'd say there's no need to put another nail in that coffin but it never hurts with this industry.

[Ursus]

As a side note, I recall who irked me that was NATSAP related at the APA confernece: it was Behrens, the reasearcher who did that 'study' on Aspen programs and claimed this was sufficient data to suggest they worked.  Fortunately, a few shrinks over that work w/ CAFETY and ASTART have been working on discrediting this. There are multiple issue with the 'study'... so hopefully that will be a piece made publicly available soon.  But, yes, re: Behrens - her sloppy work and lack of disclosure that she worked for Aspen call into questions her ethics.  She's yucky.

I don't think anybody thinks that study is credible.  I'd say there's no need to put another nail in that coffin but it never hurts with this industry.

I think TheWho still thinks that study is credible, or at least credible enough to impress unwitting parents. Which means that there are probably a certain number of NATSAP folk who also rely on it to impress unwitting parents, at least when no one else is around.

No reason to go into depth about it (unless the situation calls for it), but it could be used as a good reminder that there really aren't any reliable studies out there proving any kind of efficacy of treatment methods currently employed by this industry.

Or are there?  

[katfish]

Kat,

Thanks for all of the information. It really does help to better understand your situation as well as a little history for people like me who don't know what is being done at the level you are at.


Personally, the most damaging aspect of my program experience was the thought reform. If I were to address anyone of importance about residential teen programs, I would stress the unseen damage caused by thought reform techniques. It isn't the easiest topic to discuss but to me, at least, it is very important to walk people through the process that occurs over time and how the child's identity is destroyed and remolded. Cults and psychological POW tortures should be given as examples and set side by side to known, present day program techniques. A few examples are Biderman's Chart of Coercion, Margaret Singers six conditions for thought control and Robert J. Liftons documented observations of POW's from the Korean War that had been brainwashed.

I have been told that my description of how the thought reform process worked on me as a teenager is very compelling. If this is what I can offer to a discussion, so be it.

Tony,

I'm happy to clarify any time!  I agree with you WHOLE HEARTEDLY.  Thought reform, its impact, is so hard to convey so any contribution that can be made in that respect is ENORMOUSLY valuable.  But I get it, I've been there and it should be noted, (stating the obvious, but not something I knew until much later b/c of the brainwashing) its not therapy!  As I'm sure known by most on this forum, at one point called 'psychic driving', concept is the same, albeit approached somewhat differently depending on the program... - concept is the same, breaking people down to build them back up. Dr. Cameron really studied it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

Anyway, we know it doesn't work! Its' unethical and traumatizing.

A psychiatrist at Phil Elbergs Institute of Cultic Studies wrote about this cultic risk w/in residential settings from a clinical perspective - as an FYI.  Great material to arm one self with - particular if looking to educate NATSAP.  We're working to post research docs up on CAFETY, so I'll try to get that up this week for folks to download.  Great read.

Long and short of it, this topic is not left out in CAFETY's presentations:

You can download mine and Nick's presentation to get a sense of our focus in that respect -

http://cafety.org/events/archives-confe ... ry-19-2009

Never far from my own mind, at least...

[psy]

No reason to go into depth about it (unless the situation calls for it), but it could be used as a good reminder that there really aren't any reliable studies out there proving any kind of efficacy of treatment methods currently employed by this industry.

If it comes up, I'll simply state as fact that there aren't any reliable studies (independent peer reviewed and double blind).  They know it to be true.  No point in provocation if unnecessary.

[psy]

Long and short of it, this topic is not left out in CAFETY's presentations

That's good to hear.

What about the ethics of forced treatment.  What's CAFETY's official stance on that?