Author Topic: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP  (Read 13370 times)

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Offline psy

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If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« on: June 23, 2009, 05:14:32 PM »
What would you say?  If there is even a chance that one or two people in the audience will listen, that their hearts can be changed...  What would you say?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 05:33:09 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
What would you say?  If there is even a chance that one or two people in the audience will listen, that their hearts can be changed...  What would you say?

NATSAP speech

Beginning: fuck you
Middle: fuck you
End: fuck you
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Offline psy

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 05:40:14 PM »
5 Mins ago:

Ginger: Ok, here's an idea. How about we start a thread "What would you say to NATSAP if you had the chance" and build a brief, simple argument from there?

Me: LOL. Ok. Sounds good. most responses will border on "fuck you" but something serious might come out of it.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 05:45:50 PM »
Some people feel that regulating programs is like sugar-coating a turd. Not knowing much about NATSAP and similar organizations, I am not sure what I think about the regulation thing.
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Offline psy

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 06:00:57 PM »
Not talking about regulation.  More like making a case that treatment without consent is wrong, talk about thought reform and why it doesn't work in the long run, etc, and seeing if it can be said in such a way that even a small minority might listen.  See if some can be talked out of what they're doing.  Is such a thing even possible, and if you had a chance to take your best shot at it, what would you do?
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Offline Antigen

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 07:37:20 PM »
Basically, NATSAP is a trade organization that promotes and lobbies for the troubled parent industry. They're not a regulatory body, having no authority nor interest in regulation. And why address them at all? It would be like volunteering to do an introduction at a fucking open meeting next Friday. But we have been invited and I'm considering possibly taking up that invitation (provided they pay for transport, lodging, dinner and copious amounts of strong drink afterward)

First thing that occurred to me was an old tagline. "The TC method is effective. Not the least bit therapeutic nor conducive to community building. But very, very effective!" Maybe somebody's got a better idea and/or more enthusiasm for making that appearance.

The other question would be how would one go about trying to actually get it through these people's heads that their lifelong and life encompassing devotion to saving the chiiiiiiildren has actually done far more harm than good?

Personal anecdotes? I don't find them to be very compelling, just emotionally potent. But TC proponants just eat that shit up! So maybe a short list of tragic true stories like this one would be good
Quote
When Straight could not get Nancy to confess to being the addict she wasn't they took her into a time-out room and spat on her, screamed at her, told her she was fat and ugly and not pretty like her sister. They bent her finger back so far they broke it. Unable to extort a confession from Nancy they finally released her. Nancy turned to alcohol after her treatment and one night ten years later she took off all her clothes for all the world to see her "fat, ugly" body and jumped 10 stories to her death. A tattoo on her wrist read DISCIPLINE.

Or my own sad tale of a family estrangement, years of nightmares and other PTSD symptoms? Nah, that just proves I "should have worked my program" right? That's what my family would say if they were there.

But I'm much more inclined to go with a more objective sort of argument based on peer reviewed studies and serious research like this anyway.

[quote"Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph. D., and Richard Ofshe, Ph. D."]
The Majority Reaction

Degrees of anomie. The majority reaction seen in people who leave thought reform programs, almost regardless of the time spent with the group, is a varying degree of anomie -- a sense of alienation and confusion resulting from the loss or weakening of previously valued norms, ideals, or goals. When the person leaves the group and returns to broader society, culture shock and anxiety usually result from the theories learned in the group and the need to reconcile situational demands, values, and memories in three eras -- the past prior to the group, the time in the group, and the present situation.

The person feels like an immigrant or refugee who enters a new culture. However, the person is reentering his or her former culture, bringing along a series of experiences and beliefs from the group with which he or she had affiliated that conflict with norms and expectations. Unlike the immigrant confronting merely novel situations, the returnee is confronting a rejected society. Thus, most people leaving a thought reform program have a period in which they need to put together the split or doubled self they maintained while they were in the group and come to terms with their pre-group sense of self.
Induced Psychopathologies

Reactive schizo affective-like psychoses. These occur in individuals with no prior history of mental disorder and from families free of such history, as well as in individuals with no prior history of mental disorder, but whose families have members with affective disorders.

These psychotic episodes vary in length from days to nearly a year's duration, with most ranging from 1 to 5 months. The decompensation typically occurs in immediate response to a peak stress-inducing experience. Strong affective components, mostly of a hypomanic or manic quality, are noted near and after the decompensation. These components appear related to the behavior modeled in the group and to attitudes advocated by the group. Certain programs appear to interact with personal histories and situational properties of the group to produce depressive reactions.

Posttraumatic stress disorders. This type of disorder is described in section 309.89 of the DSM-III-R.

Atypical dissociative disorders. This type of disorder is described in section 300.15 of the DSM-III-R.

Relaxation-induced anxiety. This is a type of atypical anxiety if one uses DSM-III-R classification, but is best described in the recently growing reports appearing in research literature.

Miscellaneous reactions. These include anxiety combined with cognitive inefficiencies, such as difficulty in concentration, inability to focus and maintain attention, and impaired memory (especially short-term); self-mutilation; phobias; suicide and homicide; and psychological factors affecting physical conditions (described in section 316.00 of the DSM-III-R) such as strokes, myocardial infarctions, unexpected deaths, recurrence of peptic ulcers, asthma, etc.[/quote]

That's about as far as I've thought it through. Anybody else? Seriously.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 07:47:11 PM »
I would like to say something like this:

Good morning ladies and gentleman.  I would like to warn you up front that my views are a bite unorthodox.  I was asked to speak here to lend an alternative point of view vs the boilerplate speeches you are accustomed to just prior to breaking for a delicious free lunch.

Let me start by asking how many in this room had attended a program as a child?  Thought so.  How many of the NATSAP board members do you think attended a NATSAP certified program?  My research revealed that none had attended a program.  Your research claims that the higher echelon programs have upwards of 95% of graduates attending the college of their choice.  So wouldn’t it behoove this board to chase down and hire a few of these well educated people to serve and add value from the grass roots firsthand experience level?

I would like to ask each of you to look at the person to the right and the left of you and notice how they are dressed.  Now ask yourself if these people dress like this everyday?  Do they (or you) wear tuxedos or $5,000 gowns around the house on Saturday mornings or any regular part of their week?  Probably not.  Everyone is dressed up to put their best foot forward and put on a show, we all know it is not the real you…no offense intended.. my self included, I usually only wear jeans.  So based on this don’t you think that a 2 hour walk through of a program who has had 3 months to prepare for your visit is evidence enough to win your seal of approval?  Do you really believe you are seeing the day to day operations of a program this way?

I have to tell you that I have seen these programs after the balloons, rented help, linen table clothes. catered food and carefully hand picked teenagers are taken away.  There is a dark side that none of you will ever see.  A dark side that isn’t spoken about because it doesn’t exist in words and a description by me would not even scrape the surface.  This dark side is so ingrained and orchestrated that it has become a culture for all those who are employed that even they themselves don’t realize they are living a lie and planting the seeds of abuse.

(Okay, you can start it now jim).  The children in the slide show you see behind  me have all attended a NATSAP program.  The ones with a blue back ground are still suffering from depression.  The ones with a red background have taken their owns lives.  All of them (or their families) have agreed to have their photos displayed here today and what they all have in common is that they were all abused in NATSAP certified programs.  You will not see the same photos twice we were able to acquire 160 photographs.  I have met all of them or their families.  That one there is Sarah (pause that a second jim).. isn’t she adorable.  Sarah adored her father and unfortunately died after a long bout with cancer.  Sarah was 10 at the time and her mother remarried a year later.  Sarah was repeatedly raped by her step father starting at age 12 and it continued for 3 years.  Some of the rapes were so violent that scaring occurred which may prevent her from having children of her own.  Sarah kept this hidden and eventually was too ashamed to attend school or face her friends any longer and she lost that spark that most young people have and deserve.  After finally confronting her mother the step father convinced the mother to send her away to avoid court action.  They chose the safe haven of a NATSAP program which accepts kids from out of state.  Remember her face because I will speak about her in a second.

Ladies and Gentalemen these places that you are putting your seal of approval on are abusing our children even as we are sitting here enjoying the aroma filling the room with baked stuffed crab and lobster.  These words make you uncomfortable as I can see and I don’t mean to dampen this fine event but someone has to stand up and say this to you.

Let me ask you.. what is abuse?  Beating children, waterboarding, locking kids in cages. Whipping them?  Yes that is one form, but in my right hand I am holding up 3 NATSAP certified programs which took young children under their wing with the promise to protect them and help them through a rough period in their life and within a week being there the staff forced them to stand up in front of strangers and describe how they were raped… all the intimate details.  These details by the way were typed up and handed off from the programs therapist to the staff so that they could keep her honest.  After these children had exposed their shame and horrors they were called whores and forced to wear a sign indicating their mistakes until such time as a staff member took pity on them and allowed them to take it off.  One of these children was Sarah.  I am not a therapist and I don’t know about you but I was sick to my stomach when I read this and it changed me forever.  This was a “Therapeutic” School !!!  NATSAP certified.
In my left hand I have a list of children who suffered so badly at the hands of NATSAP certified programs that they took their own life.  Children who had suffered the type of ridicule as I described earlier and some even worse.

What would drive you to donate to and support a program which furthers this type of abuse on the future youth of America?  Every time you donate a dollar to this place your name is forever engraved on the horrors NATSAP supports and when this rock is finally flipped over and the underbelly is exposed you will not be able distance yourself or clean off the blood and your children and grandchildren will know that you supported this”Good Housekeeping Seal” and they will ask you why you didn’t take the time to find out what your money was going towards supporting?
Although I have only raise $14,000 I am gather donations to someday build a permanent structure dedicated to those who supported and donated money towards this industry which abused children under the guise of therapy in Washington DC.  If you wish to check to insure we have your name spelled correctly you can speak to myself or my assistant Megan over there.

On the table behind me I have a book for everyone to read called "Help at Any Cost" by Maia Szalavitz and a list of program graduates who would be willing to speak with you about their experiences.  I have to warn you that they are not all highly educated like you are lead to believe, if any of you strolled through the programs library or checked the teachers credentials you may understand why I say this.  But you need to be prepared that the language may be harsh but do your best to listen to their experience through their words and put your offense aside for a few minutes. Mia Szalavitz has agreed to speak to any one of you if you wish to learn more about their experience and I have provided her number and email inside each book.
I see that I am be signaled that lunch is ready.  Thank you for your time… don’t forget to pick up your copy of “Help at any cost” and the list of graduates if you feel you need further first hand information.
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Offline psy

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 07:56:20 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
But we have been invited and I'm considering possibly taking up that invitation (provided they pay for transport, lodging, dinner and copious amounts of strong drink afterward)

Tis strange but true.  And i'm up to the invitation as well, provided they're willing to cover the ticket.  If nothing else, it shoudl be a surreal experience, and perhaps, just perhaps, it might help the industry members to see their critics as human, and not just as "druggie fuckup program dropouts with a grudge".  Maybe, just maybe, they might see where some of us are coming from.

I'd say an education based approach might be the best, combined with some philosophy... perhaps a bit of personal anecdote used to illustrate exactly why their methods "work" and what's really going on behind the scenes in the heads of the kids they claim to care about.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 05:58:18 AM »
Quote
3 NATSAP certified programs which took young children under their wing with the promise to protect them and help them through a rough period in their life and within a week being there the staff forced them to stand up in front of strangers and describe how they were raped… all the intimate details. These details by the way were typed up and handed off from the programs therapist to the staff so that they could keep her honest. After these children had exposed their shame and horrors they were called whores and forced to wear a sign indicating their mistakes until such time as a staff member took pity on them and allowed them to take it off. One of these children was Sarah. I am not a therapist and I don’t know about you but I was sick to my stomach when I read this and it changed me forever. This was a “Therapeutic” School !!! NATSAP certified.
:timeout: Sounds very "Straight-like."
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 01:51:13 PM »
What is it.. like an NATSAP convention or something?  What is it's purpose?

Who will be in the audience?  Did they say why they were giving you an invite?

This could possibly be pretty cool, huh?


Paul
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 05:37:03 PM »
[Ackbar]IT'S A TRAP![/Ackbar]
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Offline wdtony

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 05:41:58 PM »
I see where you folks are coming from here but I have a different view of NATSAP.

I see them as apologists and defenders of sick people that run abusive programs and are therefore, domestic terrorists.

I would not want to speak to them because I don't think anything beneficial would be gained.

What would be better is to hear the FBI reading the members of NATSAP their miranda rights.
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Offline psy

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 05:47:57 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
I would not want to speak to them because I don't think anything beneficial would be gained.

Perhaps not, but if even one reconsiders, I think it's worth it.  If even a few go just a little bit easier on the kids or respect them a bit more, I think it's worth it.  I, too, am skeptical as to how much good it would actually do, but I can't see much harm coming out of it either.  Lots of these people have lived in the same bubble we were in and some might not actually be fully aware of what they're doing; they're just following instructions blindly.  Injecting outside opinions they may not have heard could have interesting results.  What if some start to question whether what they're doing is actually helping the kids and start to rethink what they're doing, or perhaps, what they, themselves went through once upon a time?

Again, it can't hurt, so why the hell not?
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Offline wdtony

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 06:37:28 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "wdtony"
I would not want to speak to them because I don't think anything beneficial would be gained.

Perhaps not, but if even one reconsiders, I think it's worth it.  If even a few go just a little bit easier on the kids or respect them a bit more, I think it's worth it.  I, too, am skeptical as to how much good it would actually do, but I can't see much harm coming out of it either.  Lots of these people have lived in the same bubble we were in and some might not actually be fully aware of what they're doing; they're just following instructions blindly.  Injecting outside opinions they may not have heard could have interesting results.  What if some start to question whether what they're doing is actually helping the kids and start to rethink what they're doing, or perhaps, what they, themselves went through once upon a time?

Again, it can't hurt, so why the hell not?

No, I don't suppose it could hurt. If a small minority did listen and changed their position, would they have any power to oppose those who would not listen? who are the few at the top? That is who we would need to convince. But as I said before, I consider NATSAP domestic terrorists. I do not think their opinions will change.

Don't go on what I say though, I don't know enough to make a strong argument anyway. I thought I would answer the original question despite my lack of knowledge.
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Offline psy

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Re: If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 06:51:07 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
No, I don't suppose it could hurt. If a small minority did listen and changed their position, would they have any power to oppose those who would not listen? who are the few at the top? That is who we would need to convince. But as I said before, I consider NATSAP domestic terrorists. I do not think their opinions will change.

Yeah, but you can't kill em all, so you might as well try to change a few hearts and minds.  What if some program owners actually listened to arguments about informed consent and decided their programs should be fully voluntary, open, and transparent.  I'm not saying it's likely, but it's worth a shot.
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