Author Topic: The feasibility of a definitive study.  (Read 2226 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The feasibility of a definitive study.
« on: March 15, 2009, 01:10:55 PM »
Since the fifth estate airing, I've been reading a great deal of swill regarding "success rate", and how it is measured.

These things have been measured in the past with other programs, such as synanon and 12 step.


However, criteria for "success" is not merely an issue of sobriety, is it?

I read the glowing testimonials from parents and grads about how the program "turned their life around". Well, how the fuck is this even measurable? Prove it, bitches. How do you know you wouldn't have worked out just fine if you never went?

I've decided, there needs to be a study. The thing is, what exactly, is being studied to begin with, and how the heck would it even be conducted?

I've been thinking about it, and here is what I have come up with so far.

1. It would require a list of criteria for both success and and initial placement. Some ideas for success (or, as I would prefer to call it from now on, "high-functioning") could be: employment, income level, nature of relationships with parents/family/friends, living situation.) I don't know, my point is that something specific would need to be established. Psychiatrists who work with outpatient care normally have a list of criteria that could probably be used as a reference.

The criteria for initial placement basically means the reasons kids were put away. These could be things such as a. drug/alcohol use. Frequency, nature of substance, etc. b. school attendance or discipline issues c. juvenile record d. poor grades e. psychiatric diagnosis f. history of suicide or self-harm. I'm not saying one way or another whether these are reasons to put a kid away, (but I'm sure you can guess what my feelings are on this). In addition, this would have to reflect the ACTUAL situation, not the parents perception of the situation. As such, the criteria must be concrete, measurable things, but could also take into consideration the subject's state of mind as they remember it, such as mood. This question could also be asked in establishing the criteria for high functioning rate.

2. A control. A cross section of adults from the general population who did not attend such schools, and are from similar socio-economic backgrounds as the adults who were placed in programs. Adults would be screened and selected based on whether their behavior as a teenager matched the placement criteria for the students in the study group who were placed in programs.

These adults would then be tested to determine which percentages met the criteria of a high functioning individual as an adult, in addition to the percentage breakdown for each line item in the criteria.

3. A study group. This is a selection of adults who were placed into programs as teens, and also determine the placement criteria that the control group is to be selected by.

The same poll run against the control would then be run against the study. Results would then be evaluated to see if there is any deviation between the control and study.


I also feel that it would be equally, if not more, important to do a similar study of percentages of suicides, unemployment, divorce rate, drug use and overdose, and criminal record/imprisonment between a program study group and a control group.


I would just really like to shut the success anecdote wagon train the fuck up for once, because at this point, it's arguing the hypothetical. And to be fair, that is the case either way, (i.e. crediting/blaming the program for general high or low functionality, with the exception of specific diagnoses such as PTSD.)

Anyway, it needs to be done. Really and truly. I'm just wondering if it's doable. The trick is the criteria, and this is why it would be essential that this study is done by the psychiatric industry, coupled with sociologists, because, as far as I know, they have established such criteria already as to what constitutes high, medium and low functionality. Whereas placement criteria is determined strictly by the study group.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 02:22:09 PM »
Instead of focusing on the results, I think it's better to study the process used inside of programs. Because they will always have some kids who sing their praises and claim it saved their life, even the worst programs accomplish this much.

The only question that needs to be asked is, is the process used inside programs unethical? The answer is obviously, yes.

Some people think it's okay to use an unethical process in order to achieve the desired results. But focusing on the results, and then deciding whether an unethical process is tolerable or not, sort of agrees with this premise that it is the results that matter, and not how they were accomplished.

That is why having a study focusing on how kids do after the program, actually serves the interests of programs.

Let's say you went to an abusive program, but you are doing great, sober, in school and better family life. Well, if you were turned into a statistic, it would appear that the program made the difference.

The truth is, it doesn't matter whether programs work or not because the process they use to accomplish their results is unethical.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 02:58:34 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
The truth is, it doesn't matter whether programs work or not because the process they use to accomplish their results is unethical.

This is true, of course, but it does help to have a study showing it doesn't work to show to the parents.  Many don't care what happens so long as their kids are "cured".  It helps to be able to show them they won't be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline sek

  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 03:41:51 PM »
I seem to be responding to your posts a lot for whatever reason. Anyhow, I am currently a college student majoring in sociology. I've been planning since day one to do my thesis on some aspect of the TTI. I agree with you, I think it is essential to bring sociologists in addition to psychologists, specifically sociologists specializing in deviance. While I am at this juncture winding down my second year of college, and will not be working on the thesis until my senior year, I've already begun collecting data, psychological and sociological studies, journal articles, any primary source documents (such as the propheet/insight scripts) and really anything I can get my grubby little hands on that remotely pertains to the subject at hand.

I have a couple thoughts about the nature of the study that you have proposed.
1.) I would argue to narrow the scope of the study to people with similar intake criteria and repeat the study multiple times (or perhaps simultaneously) with participants of other intake criteria. Although all participants would undoubtedly be affected by the program in one way or another, the narrowed scope could perhaps provide fewer correlational relationships to muck through. One would half to be very mindful of the sheer amount of variables in such a study, and to try and control for as many as possible.
2.) Perhaps after analyzing the correlations between different intake criteria and different later-life results, one could develop some system of evaluation or at least a solid hypothesis for use in a more macro level study with people of differing intake criteria.
3.) Lastly, how would you convince a program to let you have access to the kind of information you would need to do a study like this? Clearly no program would want to stake its reputation on such a study, or at least no program that would be as interesting to study as one with lasting effects. Not only would you need solid empirical data of the methods of the program, but the followup would take a great deal of organization, not to mention the quite hefty task of the final analysis.

@ Guest - I do agree that an in depth study of the methods of any of the programs would be an invaluable asset, but what try another castle is suggesting is a debunking of the success rate claims, which would do much to disarm the negative/deceitful programs. Both or either would be great.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 06:23:18 PM by sek »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 05:29:39 PM »
Quote from: "sek"
I seem to be responding to your posts a lot for whatever reason. Anyhow, I am currently a college student majoring in sociology. I've been planning since day one to do my thesis on some aspect of the TTI. I agree with you, I think it is essential to bring sociologists in addition to psychologists, specifically sociologists specializing in deviance. While I am at this juncture winding down my second year of college, and will not be working on the thesis until my senior year, I've already begun collecting data, psychological and sociological studies, journal articles, any primary source documents (such as the propheet/insight scripts) and really anything I can get my grubby little hands on that remotely pertains to the subject at hand.

I have a couple thoughts about the nature of the study that you have proposed.
1.) I would argue to narrow the scope of the study to people with similar intake criteria and repeat the study multiple times (or perhaps simultaneously) with participants of other intake criteria. Although all participants would undoubtedly be affected by the program in one way or another, the narrowed scope could perhaps provide fewer correlational relationships to muck through. One would half to be very mindful of the sheer amount of variables in such a study, and to try and control for as many as possible.
2.) Perhaps after analyzing the correlations between different intake criteria and different later-life results, one could develop some system of evaluation or at least a solid hypothesis for use in a more macro level study with people of differing intake criteria.
3.) Lastly, how would you convince a program to let you have access to the kind of information you would need to do a study like this? Clearly no program would want to stake its reputation on such a study, or at least no program that would be as interesting to study as one with lasting effects. Not only would you need solid empirical data of the methods of the program, but the followup would take a great deal of organization, not to mention the quite hefty task of the final analysis.

@ Guest - I do agree that an in depth study of the methods of any of the programs would be an invaluable asset, but what try another castle is suggesting is a debunking of the success rate claims, which would do much to disarm the programs. Both or either would be great.

Were you in Cedu, sek?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline sek

  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009, 06:21:48 PM »
I was in a CEDU clone with many familiar faces. You?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2009, 06:29:30 PM »
Quote from: "sek"
I was in a CEDU clone with many familiar faces. You?
You used the word "insight".  BCA?  IIRC, that's what they call propheets there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline sek

  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2009, 06:31:07 PM »
Monarch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2009, 06:34:50 PM »
Quote from: "sek"
Monarch.
Aha. I was thinking of the wrong place.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 02:03:48 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Guest"
The truth is, it doesn't matter whether programs work or not because the process they use to accomplish their results is unethical.

This is true, of course, but it does help to have a study showing it doesn't work to show to the parents.  Many don't care what happens so long as their kids are "cured".  It helps to be able to show them they won't be.


exactly, because even the stupidest parent isnt going to waste money on a quick-fix program that doesnt fix shit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2009, 03:06:50 AM »
Quote from: "try another castle"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Guest"
The truth is, it doesn't matter whether programs work or not because the process they use to accomplish their results is unethical.

This is true, of course, but it does help to have a study showing it doesn't work to show to the parents.  Many don't care what happens so long as their kids are "cured".  It helps to be able to show them they won't be.


exactly, because even the stupidest parent isnt going to waste money on a quick-fix program that doesnt fix shit.
u r overestimating the so called parents who finance their own kids abduction and imprisonment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2009, 03:14:10 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "try another castle"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Guest"
The truth is, it doesn't matter whether programs work or not because the process they use to accomplish their results is unethical.

This is true, of course, but it does help to have a study showing it doesn't work to show to the parents.  Many don't care what happens so long as their kids are "cured".  It helps to be able to show them they won't be.


exactly, because even the stupidest parent isnt going to waste money on a quick-fix program that doesnt fix shit.
u r overestimating the so called parents who finance their own kids abduction and imprisonment.

But they are also parents who, for the most part, think they are getting a "good deal" money-wise. i.e.  you get what you pay for, so if it costs this much, it must work, right? sticker-shock takes precedence over your own kid's complaints about such a place.

but if it was proven that they don't get shit, and that these things can actually estrange you from your offspring in the long run, and also has the potential to cut them out of your life forever, then I don't think they are going to be willing to spend several thousand dollars a month on it.

this is one of the few industries who not only fail to deliver on their product, but actually get you the opposite of what you want. most pyramid schemes and shoddy products simply fail to deliver.

It's like buying toilet paper and realizing "holy fuck, I'm wiping, and I'm actually getting MORE shit on my ass. wtf?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline dishdutyfugitive

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.foxmovies.com/fightclub/
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2009, 09:30:36 AM »
definitive pyramid feasiblity

schemy control groups

extended couer d'alen parent visits

do you think the pink lion cared about our feelings?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline try another castle

  • Registered Users
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2693
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2009, 04:57:17 PM »
Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive"
definitive pyramid feasiblity

schemy control groups

extended couer d'alen parent visits

do you think the pink lion cared about our feelings?

If given the choice, I would have preferred living at the pink lion. Especially since they sold iced animal cookies.

Did you know that mother's cookies went out of business? they were the only ones who made those. NOOOOOOOOO!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: The feasibility of a definitive study.
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2009, 03:05:57 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"

That is why having a study focusing on how kids do after the program, actually serves the interests of programs.

Let's say you went to an abusive program, but you are doing great, sober, in school and better family life. Well, if you were turned into a statistic, it would appear that the program made the difference.

The truth is, it doesn't matter whether programs work or not because the process they use to accomplish their results is unethical.

This is something to be considered in doing a study.  Maybe there is a way to factor in that some people do well despite being in a program.  

Anytime I bring up that I am struggling, or having a difficult time in my life now as a result of the program, no one believes me because I 'have it together.'  My parents/family/others site the fact that I'm in school making good grades and working at a good job as proof of the programs success.  I was sober for a few years after I graduated, proving that the program "works."  Even though now I am 'relapsed' I still continue to have a good job, good family relationships, etc. but I struggle immensely with day to day life.  Because I have managed to internalize this, or compartmentalize enough, I am able to put on a good front.  It covers the harm done by the program, misrepresenting it.  I'm not sure if that makes sense.  

It would be interesting to see the results though.  I'm sure that there are many others who are doing well in spite of going through a program.  I am also sure that there are many who are not because of going through a program.  I am also curious of how many people still diligently follow the program.  I know there is a pocket of kids and straight graduates out there, but what about the other programs?  How many still think it is good, the best, follow the rules, etc. years later?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »