Author Topic: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming  (Read 3814 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« on: February 16, 2009, 08:42:08 PM »
I seem to have difficulties with interacting with my peers now that I am away from the program, away from graduates, and forging my own life.  I can play the part, hard worker, good student, good employee, etc. but I can't seem to get it together in the friend department.  It is so hard for me to relate to people my own age, I am extremely intolerant, even though I hate that quality in others.  Even though I am no longer following the program, I still have all those little voices and snap judgements inside of me.  Any time there is any confrontation, I just shy away.  I can't handle critisism, I take it as a personal attack, even when rationally I know it is not.  I would rather cut someone off than have to deal with trying to repair a friendship.  The only reason I think I can so easily cut people off is because of the program.  Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?  I didn't used to have these problems before the program.  I made friends normally, and had no problem going to parties with people I didn't know.  I liked it because I got to know new people.  Now it is terrifying to go to a party/bar or any social situation, even with people I know.  This is turning into a vicious cycle, and I am just cutting myself off even further to the point where I am not comfortable with people I've known my whole life.  My significant other tells me that it is just going to take some time to 'deprogram' but I don't even know what that means, and it has been a few years since I left the program. I wish I could brainwash myself into forgeting everything about that horrible place, and undo whatever they did to my head to get me to buy into all of that bullsht.  I want it all out of my head.  I just want to go back to normal.  I have a double life of putting on a good face to the world when I have to, and then hiding out like a scared little kid.  It's fucking exhausting.
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Offline dishdutyfugitive

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 10:03:20 PM »
Sounds like you are realizing this within a few years after 'graduating'. That's a good sign.

It takes years to untangle the clusterfucked ball of twine these programs wrap around our true identity.

Hell it's been 20+ years and I still have to rip massive sections of twine out every now and then. I look back on the first 10 years out and laugh at all the mistakes I made because of the sub-sconcious and conscious program think burned into me noodle.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 10:25:32 PM »
Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive"

It takes years to untangle the clusterfucked ball of twine these programs wrap around our true identity.


How do I untangle it?  I feel like I'm losing/lost myself.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 10:40:29 PM »
Quote from: "brainwashed"
Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive"

It takes years to untangle the clusterfucked ball of twine these programs wrap around our true identity.


How do I untangle it?  I feel like I'm losing/lost myself.

Yeah I would like to know as well. Its been 22 yrs for me since I've been out of Straight.
I still feel out of place no matter what normal functions I'm attending. I never felt this way before Straight. Inc
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Offline Mel

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 11:15:26 PM »
I came to accept a long time ago that we can't go back to who we were before these programs, nor will we ever see the world the same way "normal" people do. But we CAN live as normal people with normal social interaction and relations to others. Recognizing what parts of the program lead to those changes in you is a good step.

Have you tried therapy? I know a lot of people shy away from it because they think therapy might be like the program you were in, but it's not. Friends can only understand so much what we went through. The right professional can help guide you through the detangling process. We all became tangled up in different ways, so while it helps speaking with other survivors (A LOT) we still have an individual mess to work out.
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Offline dishdutyfugitive

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 01:17:18 AM »
Yes, they threw the baby out with the bath water.

Quote
How do I untangle it? I feel like I'm losing/lost myself.

Learning a foreign language has been helpful for me. When I actively study/practice a foreign language it feels like I'm engaging unused parts of my brain. Brain parts that were left surprisingly unscathed from the gale force kool aid shitstorm.

Living overseas proved to be an even better experience. I felt myself relating to the world differently. I'm convinced that I was perceiving and processing basic cognitive tasks in a new way.  You gain an appreciation for the important things in life. You begin to assimilate to your new culture and eventually it occasionally dawns on you that America is rife with hyper-consumptive, quick-fix loving, greedy fat fucks, with no grasp of common sense or decency.

*Footnote - Living in Canada and/or working for the UN doesn't count. That would be the equivalent of gazing into a mirror while giving yourself a reach around.
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Offline Awake

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 01:38:01 PM »
I very much identify with your dilemma Brainwashed. It took me about 14 yrs to realize the effect the program had on me. For the last 6 yrs or so I've been seeking out an isolated lifestyle and purposely shut out any possible friendships, and recently have figured out why. Friendships were not a problem bfore, but now the very idea can make me panic and I often give the impression that I am an asshole just so no one will attempt a connection w/ me. I thought understanding the reason would release me from that, but I'm afraid it's not exactly the case. The more pressure I put on myself to get past it seems to make it worse. I wish I could give you a better solution, but I have found that once I stop giving myself shit for not making friends, being social and isolating I seem to be able to deal with that stuff better.

I don't really know how to de-program, but my instincts tell me not to let anyone else tell me how to do that, unless they are very trustworthy. One thing that was made clear to me was the need, of these programs, to utilize peer relationships and friendships as the means to implant their "lessons". I think sub-consciously all these years I had developed social fears as a means of defense. I knew that my friends in the program had no intention to harm me, but I also knew my friendships were the tool to manipulate me. I think its possible that there's nothing really wrong with you, you have just had an experience that made you aware of a potential threat that no one else can identify with. And if you are defending yourself in a similar way as me, maybe it's just on "hyper mode" b/c you don't fully understand the means by which you were attacked. Though you'd like to just forget it all, this really can be an important lesson that will help you recognize future threats to yourself or others.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 01:45:33 PM »
I too understand.  I've been out for 20+ years as well - and unfortunately for me it just took time - a long time.
A few years after, I didn't deal with it at all because I knew my parents felt so guilty about putting me the program, so I didn't want to talk about it much with them.  So instead I looked for boyfriends who I could "help" and just kept making bad decisions and felt like I wasn't good enough for the "normal" guys.  For years I always felt like I was different somehow.

I wish I would have sought counseling versus taking years to just accept what was and what is.  We can't changed that part of our lives - it is there.  But there is a lot of life to still live - however you choose to.  I know it sounds like a cliche - but life is so short, thus what I think and I don't care what other people think of me because their judgement is meaningless to me.  I focus on the things I love in my life and just cherish those things each day.  As someone said, that was true for me too, I had to accept I will never be the person I was before the program.  But I have accepted that in a positive light, I am who I am so I must make the most of it.

I wish you luck and at lkeast you have a significant other you can talk to.  But remember, you're not different or weird b/c of what you are going through - it seems to be very normal.  I wish I could give you specific suggestions on how to "untangle", but unfortunately I can't.  Just hang in there, enjoy each day - it will get better.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 12:43:12 PM »
Thanks for all of the responses.  Having other people who can relate is a relief in a way, even though it sucks that we can all relate on this.  It's also a little discouraging that this could still be an issue in 20+ years, I'm angry that its still an issue for me only a few years out.

Quote from: "Guest"
But remember, you're not different or weird b/c of what you are going through - it seems to be very normal.  I wish I could give you specific suggestions on how to "untangle", but unfortunately I can't.  Just hang in there, enjoy each day - it will get better.

Quote from: "Mel"
Have you tried therapy? I know a lot of people shy away from it because they think therapy might be like the program you were in, but it's not. Friends can only understand so much what we went through. The right professional can help guide you through the detangling process. We all became tangled up in different ways, so while it helps speaking with other survivors (A LOT) we still have an individual mess to work out.

I have periodically tried to go to therapy.  The most recent attempt was a few months ago when all of this really started to hit me hard.  It took a few weeks to set up an appointment, but then when the day came, I had a mini panic attack/freak out right before about it, and didn't go.  My parents sent me to a therapist for a few months before I was shipped off.  I guess that's something I should try again, but I have very little faith and trust in that industry, and also have no idea how to find a 'quality' therapist who isn't a crock of shit.  I'm weary of anyone else dabbling in my head, that's the last thing I need.

Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive"
Yes, they threw the baby out with the bath water.

Quote
How do I untangle it? I feel like I'm losing/lost myself.

Learning a foreign language has been helpful for me. When I actively study/practice a foreign language it feels like I'm engaging unused parts of my brain. Brain parts that were left surprisingly unscathed from the gale force kool aid shitstorm.

Living overseas proved to be an even better experience. I felt myself relating to the world differently. I'm convinced that I was perceiving and processing basic cognitive tasks in a new way.  You gain an appreciation for the important things in life. You begin to assimilate to your new culture and eventually it occasionally dawns on you that America is rife with hyper-consumptive, quick-fix loving, greedy fat fucks, with no grasp of common sense or decency.

*Footnote - Living in Canada and/or working for the UN doesn't count. That would be the equivalent of gazing into a mirror while giving yourself a reach around.

I've never thought about a foreign language like that, but I see what you're saying.  The program wouldn't let us speak foreign languages until second phase, and that was only for school.  They didn't want to risk not understanding what we were saying I guess?  I just remember getting asserted for that on first phase.  I totally agree with you on living abroad.  I felt alive in a way I haven't when traveling, completely open to everything, and having to relearn everything in a different culture (even opening doors sometimes) made me look at things differently.  I'm trying to figure out a way to live and work abroad right now.

 
Quote from: "Awake"
I very much identify with your dilemma Brainwashed. It took me about 14 yrs to realize the effect the program had on me. For the last 6 yrs or so I've been seeking out an isolated lifestyle and purposely shut out any possible friendships, and recently have figured out why. Friendships were not a problem bfore, but now the very idea can make me panic and I often give the impression that I am an asshole just so no one will attempt a connection w/ me. I thought understanding the reason would release me from that, but I'm afraid it's not exactly the case. The more pressure I put on myself to get past it seems to make it worse. I wish I could give you a better solution, but I have found that once I stop giving myself shit for not making friends, being social and isolating I seem to be able to deal with that stuff better.

I don't really know how to de-program, but my instincts tell me not to let anyone else tell me how to do that, unless they are very trustworthy. One thing that was made clear to me was the need, of these programs, to utilize peer relationships and friendships as the means to implant their "lessons". I think sub-consciously all these years I had developed social fears as a means of defense. I knew that my friends in the program had no intention to harm me, but I also knew my friendships were the tool to manipulate me. I think its possible that there's nothing really wrong with you, you have just had an experience that made you aware of a potential threat that no one else can identify with. And if you are defending yourself in a similar way as me, maybe it's just on "hyper mode" b/c you don't fully understand the means by which you were attacked. Though you'd like to just forget it all, this really can be an important lesson that will help you recognize future threats to yourself or others.

This comment hit home.  I had a little freak out/rage once that thought sunk in.  How messed up is it that they used our friendships to manipulate us?  
Quote
"I knew that my friends in the program had no intention to harm me, but I also knew my friendships were the tool to manipulate me. "
 I know that was the whole model, positive peer pressure, but how much that aspect has fucked with me, I just never realized.  I'm still mulling all of this over, but it makes sense to me.  In the program, your best friend could suddenly turn on you, along with the rest of the group if staff even hinted that they were displeased with you, especially during confrontation groups.  The group before I would get feed back from my peers that I was running a strong program, etc.  only to be stood up in the next group, confronted by staff, and the same friends who were giving me positive feedback were holding me accountable for things they have never brought up before/ embellishing on things I did, you all understand.  That takes away all security.  Then even after graduation, this same mentality continues as the bad apples are cut off.  Once we heard someone relapsed, they were cut off unless they wanted to come back to the program, maybe even until they reentered their phases and re-graduated.  I don't know why I never made that connection.  I always thought I was just a cold-hearted person somehow because I can so easily sever ties with people close to me in my life, and never made the association that they taught me to do that.  And I also think its weird how these little 'realizations' turn my world so upside down when I have them.

Thanks for listening.  I feel stupid posting that on an online forum, but I'm surprised at how much better I feel having a little validation for my craziness.
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Offline psy

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 12:47:47 PM »
Not craziness.  It's a natural reaction to extraordinary circumstances.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2009, 05:15:44 AM »
Psy summed it up well.

I still can't deal with humans. I blasted people on Facebook today. Sometimes the whole world reminds me of what we went through. The stupid ass games that were used to fuck our minds. I don't think the mind fuck ever goes away and pretending is exhausting. I periodically break as I did today. I can only carry the facade so long. I find isolation keeps me alive. I have no trust of people. After "bans" and everything else, why would i? The RTCs in some ways were a recreation of the world we live in where people can turn on you in a split second, only there are not rewards "levels" in exchange. Personally, I like talking to strangers in malls, because I know I will never see them again. Granted I can't seem to handle the mall. I am too agoraphobic. Explain that. I still can' figure out how I can be claustrophobic and agoraphobic at the same time.
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Offline Sam Kinison

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 12:27:54 AM »
The biggest mindfuck,outside of the lie that we were all drug addicts,were the labels we placed on people(and ourselves subconsciously).If we can discipline ourselves to catch the times that we put those dumbass labels on people,a big step will be taken.People aren't druggies,screwups,whores,cons and what-nots.No matter how badly someone pisses you off,remember the fact that nobody thinks that he himself is a scumbag and nobody has the market cornered on being an asshole.Everybody is an asshole from time to time.Every time I catch myself judging somebody that way,I remind myself that there are times that I can be just as offensive.Learning another language and immersing myself in another culture definitely helped.The attraction shown by Latinas to Blue-eyed men didn't hurt.You have to make life interesting and put all of that hostility aside.Watch "The Devil's Advocate" with Al Pacino and Keanu Reeves.Watch Pacino's brilliant monologue as Satan for his love of mankind and denouncing God as a twisted sadist.The whole message here is that if Satan himself thinks that he is kind and charitable,there's a good chance so does everybody else.Most crooks feel as if circumstances created their being and possibly,there may be some truth to that.That's why they look at the righteous and feel as if they're being put down,thinking that SOB is no better than me,he just thinks he is.You don't have to like nor love everybody,nor anybody for that matter,but forgiving the shortcomings,real or imaginary,in others will help you forgive the shortcomings and rectifying for real,the shortcomings in yourself.Now maybe my friend Woof understands why I don't hate anybody from Straight,just the malignance the organization like that manifested.Very rarely are things created by panic positive.I forgive my mother in spite of today still thinking that shithole saved my life.In reality,it came dangerously close to making me another statistic,an abyss I'm still navigating myself through.Trying to explain the incredible mortality rate of Straight graduates vs the rest of the world to her is like trying to read Mao's Little Red Book to her in Mandarin.She admits that Petermann was a horse's ass(apologies to equine backsides worldwide as this term probably flatters Helen's true character)and the staff was unqualified to make the decisions they were making regarding clients' lives,to her,she thinks these shortcomings were minor flaws in what she perceives to be greater good.By her saying that Petermann was an ass and staff was unqualified,for those who were there would know,HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BE GOOD?Unfortunately,disagreements between Mother and Son are rarely resolved with logic.So in what is becoming more and more tradition in my world(My wife is an evangelical Christian and I am a Jewish kabbalah reader),I sign off many discussions with we're going to have to agree to disagree.Not the worst resolution.Woof maybe can resolve his differences with what seems to be a Mule of a father with the same attitude.Agreeing to disagree.He,too,is a victim.He is being played by the great lie,con,hustle that is being perpetrated even today on parents today.Sign your kids into these shitholes or buy your baby a tombstone.Any parent can understand the moral dilemma.This is not about logic,this is about maternal and paternal emotions.Any parent can feel the same pain.The bloodsuckers who have made this an industry are the thugs.Jean Cassidy told me(while her husband was an exec staff),the group has very few true addicts.Her and Scotty are now running a rehab brainwashing kids,not addicted to drugs,that they really are hooked and either the graveyard,jail,or the looney bin is waiting for them.Somebody please tell me what good could possibly come from that?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 06:46:33 PM »
Quote from: "Just Me"
Psy summed it up well.

I still can't deal with humans. I blasted people on Facebook today. Sometimes the whole world reminds me of what we went through. The stupid ass games that were used to fuck our minds. I don't think the mind fuck ever goes away and pretending is exhausting. I periodically break as I did today. I can only carry the facade so long. I find isolation keeps me alive. I have no trust of people. After "bans" and everything else, why would i? The RTCs in some ways were a recreation of the world we live in where people can turn on you in a split second, only there are not rewards "levels" in exchange. Personally, I like talking to strangers in malls, because I know I will never see them again. Granted I can't seem to handle the mall. I am too agoraphobic. Explain that. I still can' figure out how I can be claustrophobic and agoraphobic at the same time.


i am also very isolated. I have lost most or all of my friends. i was messed up from my parents abuse before program but it  really really pushed far deeper into mental damage. My problems are not all due to my programs, but all my problems are all generated by my program. One thing leads to another. My program caused something so horrible that  i cant even bring myself to describe them here.

and yes, isolated too, i dont know how to reach out to people, pretty sad

I dont really know how to reach out to people. sad
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 07:26:23 PM »
because i was not involved in the program and now my brother has been out for 10 months we can not connect.  i did not ageee with he program and i knew my brother wasnt an addict.   my mother has big doubts  about the program but my brother thinks it helped him.  now he addicted to n/a and a/a meetings.  i notice isolation by my lil bro and any conflict cannot be resolved as the other person expressed , with logic.   my bro says i missed the boat and your view is from the land and mine is fromthe boat.  but this was not the case before program.  i dont understand how now i cannot relate to my bro as in the passed.  it is really weird.  it is as if i do not fit in his world, box whatever you want to call it.  and we used have big trust bewteen us and he knows i will not enable him.  i do not drink or smoke and he knows that.  so what is going on his his head.  can someone explain?   and what can i do to communicate effectivly?  any tips would be greatly welcome.
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Interacting with Peers / Deprograming
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2009, 10:24:11 AM »
Quote from: "stick it"
because i was not involved in the program and now my brother has been out for 10 months we can not connect.  i did not ageee with he program and i knew my brother wasnt an addict.   my mother has big doubts  about the program but my brother thinks it helped him.  now he addicted to n/a and a/a meetings.  i notice isolation by my lil bro and any conflict cannot be resolved as the other person expressed , with logic.   my bro says i missed the boat and your view is from the land and mine is fromthe boat.  but this was not the case before program.  i dont understand how now i cannot relate to my bro as in the passed.  it is really weird.  it is as if i do not fit in his world, box whatever you want to call it.  and we used have big trust bewteen us and he knows i will not enable him.  i do not drink or smoke and he knows that.  so what is going on his his head.  can someone explain?   and what can i do to communicate effectivly?  any tips would be greatly welcome.

I hate to say it my friend, but only time will tell if he will come out of the brainwashing. For some it gets so ingrained that they become lost in the cults of NA, AA, or what ever other "A" orginization that they choose to belong. The program makes them believe that they will die without being in their programs by telling them that if they step out of their little circle, all that is left for them is "Jail, Institutions, or Death" and that comes directly from the NA literature.

As far as people that they associate with, well they make them believe that anybody who is not in the program (Normies), will lead them back to using.

And yes it has taken me 20 plus years to finally cleaning up some of the "Botched Programming" that they done to my head in Straight.

Each of us that you speak with here who has endured the cruel and inhumane treatment of a Straight like program will tell you with all honesty that we may never totally heal. But there is a bright side, for some of us we have worked our way to a point that we can speak the truth and help others to heal.

Good luck and do not give up.
BP
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