Author Topic: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs  (Read 4187 times)

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Offline psy

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline FemanonFatal2.0

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 02:07:28 AM »
Thank you!

Its surprising to me how SO MANY people are so easily sucked into these fairytale cults. Religion, AA and Behavior Modification programs all prey on the weak and gullible and teach them to judge everyone else for not believing the same nonsense. When will the world wake up from the mass hypnosis that quacks who have long ago left this earth set us under.

The other day I visited my little sister who told me that she was afraid to go live with the devil... apparently my grandmother has been telling her about the bible, and she really thinks these stories are true, like Santa Claus! The problem is that these are the same stories that people have been convinceing their children of for years, and apparently people haven't learned to grow up and take a story on face value, as just a story. No, in fact instead they base their whole life and conviction upon the illusion that these fairytales are real and that everyone else should believe them as well. I never understood why people felt the need to impose their religion on other people, as though "non believers" are somehow lost or in need of saving... when in reality it could only be the opposite, because for anyone else who is willing to live in such self inflicted delusions its only common sense that these people could be considered sick, or crazy.

How is a religion any different than a cult? a widely accepted cult but a cult none the less. Especially when branches of said cults are created to "fix" people, like AA. AA carries all aspects of what could be considered a modern day religious crusade, where people are not only forced into the control of the religion (ie the court ordered AA meetings) but as well convinced that they are helpless without the help of their divine assistance. Religious crusades have been responsible for these mass conversions since the beginning of recorded history and considering the success of the past what makes you think anything would stop them now? Only difference is their tactics have changed with the times, and their beliefs are more widely accepted in the general public that not too many people feel the need to openly question it. Lets face it, stupid people have been breeding stupid people for so long we have evolved to exclude the will of questioning our society. Too many people are willing to go along with whatever they are told, and blindly believe in something their whole lives that it has become near impossible to wake anyone up out of their religious comas.

Despite the fact that Religion is single-handedly responsible for most of the world wars, including the one we are paying for as we speak we still can't bear to purge ourselves of the bed time stories that make us feel all warm and cozy inside. My question is, are we really all that weak? Do we as a society need to convince ourselves of such ridiculous ideals in order to live our lives in a moral manner? Is it really so wrong to just live your life on your own terms? I can't say I have so much faith in the dumb-masses but as individuals we should all be able to make up our own minds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
[size=150]When Injustice Becomes Law
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 04:24:19 AM »
Fem, you know, people often have to attend anger management class, or visit with a parole officer as a condition of release or remaining at large..Are parole and anger management classses "cults"?....Religions are not "cults" or vice versa based on how "accepted" they are. I wish people would stop throwing aroung that term...

..

MO: money is responsible for most wars.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 04:31:37 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Fem, you know, people often have to attend anger management class, or visit with a parole officer as a condition of release or remaining at large..Are parole and anger management classses "cults"?....Religions are not "cults" or vice versa based on how "accepted" they are. I wish people would stop throwing aroung that term...

..

MO: money is responsible for most wars.

You're right.  Religions are not cults but there can be religious cults.  I'm not getting into that debate as it's already been done elsewhere.  Is the term "cult" overused?  Sometimes it is.  The solution is education, not calling people names.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 04:53:18 AM »
In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 06:36:44 AM »
Quote from: "bored"
In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”


yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."
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Offline psy

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 06:52:14 AM »
Quote from: "bored and sad and angry"
Quote from: "bored"
In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”


yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."

Personally, I prefer to describe what happened and let people come to their own conclusions, maybe using teh "cult" or "cult-like group" moniker later if it is appropriate.   There is reason to avoid using the word, but unfortunately, sometimes it *is* appropriate.  At the very least, "brainwashing" does need to be used.  It's the only way to explain how kids come out of the most abusive programs mindlessly singing "the program saved my life from deadinsaneinjail".

Sometimes if you press the issue, you can demonstrate the supporters really *are* brainwashed.  Sometimes, you don't need to.  Such is the case with the second WISH-TV thread in which the fanatical supporters were clearly showing their true colors:

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wish/ ... KPVEM8FPSR

I don't think anybody can read that thread and not have the word "brainwashed" pop into their heads.  That is one of the best examples I've seen of program people at their craziest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 08:33:14 AM »
Quote from: "bored and sad and angry"
Quote from: "bored"
In any case I deeply dislike labels such as “cult, “survivor,” “programmie” -- and for that matter, “fascist,” “communist,” etc. Quite apart from their anti-analytical, inflammatory purpose, such terms have lost most of their meaning through overuse. In my experience “X is a programmie!” really means, more often than not, something like “I disagree with Mr. X about Y.”
yes these terms have lost their meaning through misuse..particularly cult. i'd say people should educate themselves about cultic organizations, but I'd come off like such a condescending twit that I refrain. Not to mention a lot of people cannot be "educated."

 :bs:   :bs:   :bs:   :bs:

go on ... pick at semantics ... anything to avoid having to ...
face the TRUTH!!

:D
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 11:31:28 AM »
Just because you went to rehab and AA unnecessarily doesn't make them evil. It just means you're stupid.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 12:36:38 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Just because you went to rehab and AA unnecessarily doesn't make them evil. It just means you're stupid.

A legitimate rehab wouldn't take the kinds of kids you refer to. They don't need it, and it wouldn't be professionally responsible to put them through an unnecessary institutionalization.

The reason some kids end up at these duck farms who take anybody, on the other hand, has more to do with dysfunctional family dynamics than anything else. And it is a lot easier -- for all concerned -- to put the onus of cause onto the kid's shoulders, than it is to put it on the parents' shoulders.

After all, the parent is paying the bills, and "the customer is always right," eh?

The reason these kids end up being at the duck farm is not because they're "stupid," but because they're kids! They don't have a choice!

Your failure to recognize that makes you... uh, what?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 02:52:07 PM »
Not quite, little buddy!! I'm not talking about kids I"m talking about adults go to AA or sign themsleves into rehab. Rehabs know that people will not sign themselves in if they don't want treatment *because it's common sense*.  I guess you are the type of person who thinks people should be able to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Ronald McDonald is a cult leader responsible for brainwashing children who grow up and die of heart disease! It's a McDonalds holocaust!  ::)
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Offline seamus

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 07:13:39 PM »
um...ok so when i got put in straight did i have a drug problem? Fuck yes.Did I need to be kicked around at that point ? Fuck no.Did straight give me any "tools" to deal with MY situation?no they gave me more reinforcement for the shitty way i already thought of myself.
 at best they were seriously incompetent,at worst a very "CULT-LIKE" conspiricy of IDIOTS,most of whom would'nt know therapy if it bit them on the balls. :soapbox: dont get me fing started.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 07:55:28 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Not quite, little buddy!! I'm not talking about kids I"m talking about adults go to AA or sign themsleves into rehab. Rehabs know that people will not sign themselves in if they don't want treatment *because it's common sense*.  I guess you are the type of person who thinks people should be able to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Ronald McDonald is a cult leader responsible for brainwashing children who grow up and die of heart disease! It's a McDonalds holocaust!  ::)

Well, I dunno about Ronald McDonald, but there was some clown by the name of Donald MacDonald who functioned as one of the U.S. Government-Straight, Inc. go-betweens back in the early days. I am sure that some might say your wild accusations could be quite literally applied to him.   :D

Courtesy of Wes Fager's wisdom, color emphasis mine:
Quote
Straight, Inc., the United States government and medical experimentation. Straight, Inc. can not deny that it was involved in medical research. In 1982 Donald Ian Macdonald, MD was appointed Director of Medical Research for Straight-national, and in 1986 Richard H. Schwartz, MD was Director of Research for Straight-Springfield...

<snip snip> ...

Straight and the White House Drug Czars. Besides being director of NIDA Robert DuPont was also the second White House Drug Czar. Drug Czar Carlton Turner accompanied Nancy Reagan on her first visit to Straight and endorses the front page of Miller Newton's book Not My Kid with these words: "Not My Kid should be required reading for any parent concerned about their children's future." Turner spoke at a Straight fund raising dinner in May 1982. Donald Ian Macdonald, Straight's national medical research director, became another Reagan Drug Czar.

http://republicanpartyandcults.blogspot ... hould.html

See also: http://thestraights.com/people/medical- ... ntment.gif
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Offline seamus

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2009, 08:05:23 PM »
I remember his kid he fing flew thru his program,un-like the rest of us,I spilled more dope than that kid used,he was a preppy,prolly got caught by his mommy inthe bushes with a pbr,half a doob,and a larry flynt publication
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Penn & Teller Bullshit Episode: 12 Step Programs
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2009, 08:41:38 PM »
I thought all the kids in programs were innocent?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »