Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

split twice,lauderdale ''74

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Anonymous:
No I did not - to be perfectly honest I did not know them .  Tom I knew a little more but not very well either.   I do remember you as a young blond haired kid with your Mom.   I really am sorry you don't have good relations with your family.  Somehow throughout the years I became very close to my 3 brothers & Sister.  Only one of my siblings went through the program & was not as involved as me.  I really do believe that the younger three brothers stayed out of alot of trouble because of me & my sister.  She was around for about a year & I on the other hand was around off & on for a lifetime.  Sure nothing was perfect but everyone sure tried hard to help others I know I did and I think we did a pretty good job of it.  I really don't have many enemies nor regrets.  I never witnessed any of the crap that I've seen on this site nor am I a Pollyanna.  Like people have said to me "What friggin seed did they go to" Through this site I have contacted or  have been contacted by over a dozen people that I've stayed in touch with ever since and I 've gone visiting people in CA & GA & NC and somemore still in FL. It's been great.  A hell of alot of good happened there -  and I'm sorry if some feel differently - I really am.  I am just one guy and I can only be held responsible for for my own actions and for what I've seen :peace: .

Antigen:
Thanks for the peace offering. I can only be held responsible for what I've seen too. Please don't continually call me a liar. I've seen what I've seen, lived what I've lived. I took the first and most impotent rule so much more seriously than the staff and other dedicated brainwashed Seedlings that I got my nose busted, ribs broke and more for refusing to lie and say I was grateful to be taken back into the loving arms of group for salvation. It just wouldn't have been honest. That's what I said and I meant it.

Ft. Lauderdale:
First of all I never called you a liar.  2nd of all all the "nose punching & rib breaking stuff" happened where = Straight Inc. Right? Thats what I'm talking about... Alot of events that you speak of hold  an element of truth then the time drags on for a decades of untruths  & exaggerations -alot based on bitterness & malcontent - as I see it. .  I think the limo thing was a period of months - they had fun with the donation - sold it and the money went to the seed.   Ther was a time period that he was shot at numerous times in a car , by drug dealers and who knows who else in the very early days.  I remember my 1971 ford maverick (not a cool car) had a bullet hole in it as well.  Art was not a big guy - in fact I think just about all of us were alot bigger -everyone would appear to be a bodyguard-sure some people my have gotten into the role at times. I even drove the limo for a short period like 2 weeks or a month until he felt like this is a little silly or out of place & sold it.

Antigen:

--- Quote from: "Ft. Lauderdale" ---First of all I never called you a liar.  

--- End quote ---

Uhhhh...

--- Quote from: "Ft. Lauderdale » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:50 am" ---Antigen - as usual you are just making stuff up again. ...

--- End quote ---


2nd of all all the "nose punching & rib breaking stuff" happened where = Straight Inc. Right?

--- Quote from: "Wes Fager, in A Clockwork Straight" ---The founding staff of Straight consisted of Jim Hartz, the director, who had a masters degree in psychology, six young graduates from The Seed, and 54 year-old Helen Petermann, the mother of one of those graduates who was placed in charge of the six young counselors.
http://www.wesfager.com/theprogram/thec ... -12-02.htm [well worth the read]

--- End quote ---

Straight, Inc. was just a continuation of the Seed in nearly every detail. The only differences were a better, more robust corporate structure and that there was not one single cult leader like Art was, but rather many different ones for each location and time-frame. In my era it was Miller Newton in St. Pete w/ Chris Casselor playing a Libbi sort of role down in Sarasota.

When I landed up there, there were no surprises. I knew that the intake "interview" was unwinnable; that the line about a two week evaluation was a bald faced lie; that it would end in a strip search followed by an introduction to group and placement on front row as a newcomer w/ 3 days of no "relating".... The jargon was the same, the rules were the same, the songs were the same (minus the anti-religion material and "The Seed Indeed") the rituals were the same. And, of course, the logo and letter-head were different.


--- Quote ---Thats what I'm talking about... Alot of events that you speak of hold  an element of truth then the time drags on for a decades of untruths  & exaggerations

--- End quote ---

Further:

--- Quote from: "sic" --- A former program volunteer told a Times reporter in December 1977 that she, Hartz and others once witnessed Mrs. Petermann maliciously kicking a youth who was passively resisting Straight officials.
...
According to the Saint Petersburg Times of February 12, 1978 two former Straight counselors (in sworn statements) said they had seen Straight program director Helen R. Petermann repeatedly slap a small youth and yanked him by his hair in an apparent outburst of temper. "I saw maybe five good smacks," one ex-counselor had said..
--- End quote ---

You remember good ol'e Mrs. Pete?

Your selective perception is also very similar to what I experienced. When HRS investigators questioned me just after I escaped, I told them that I had not witnessed or experienced any abuse. I wasn't lying, either. I believed what I said. I figured that, because I knew they'd sit on me and marathon me for refusing to say what they wanted me to say that it wouldn't be fair or exactly honest to call it abuse. I'm sure you saw with your eyes and heard with your ears some of the abuse that occurred at the Seed. But, just like my dear brother, you didn't perceive it as abuse. But there are just too damned many witnesses who have since shaken off the brainwashing or never gave in in the first place for any reasonable observer to write it all off as bullshit.


--- Quote ---
-alot based on bitterness & malcontent - as I see it. .  I think the limo thing was a period of months - they had fun with the donation - sold it and the money went to the seed.   Ther was a time period that he was shot at numerous times in a car , by drug dealers and who knows who else in the very early days.

--- End quote ---
Well he was still functioning as Art's personal driver as late as 2000 or so. And when you say the money went to "The Seed" what, exactly, does that mean? The staff were always paid less than minimum wage, the clients were housed and fed by other Seedling families, the food served at the building was donated and prepared by volunteers. All sorts of government grant money and donations were constantly pouring in on top of the fees paid by parents and donations collected at each open meeting. Despite all the poor-mouthing and constant panhandling, somehow or other, Art & his close inner circle landed up as minor millionaires. My mom wound up flat broke, having been conned out of a considerable inheritance along with her hard earned pay.

Any witnesses to that alleged shooting by drug dealers? Art always did take as many liberties with the truth as he did with some of the chicks.


--- Quote --- I remember my 1971 ford maverick (not a cool car) had a bullet hole in it as well.  Art was not a big guy - in fact I think just about all of us were alot bigger -everyone would appear to be a bodyguard-sure some people my have gotten into the role at times. I even drove the limo for a short period like 2 weeks or a month until he felt like this is a little silly or out of place & sold it.
--- End quote ---

So... then why blast me and claim Art never had no stinkin' body guard if you were one of them? Really, why? Is it bitterness and malcontent? Or just a really bad case of cognitive dissonance?

Honestly, I think I understand it. And, although it irks me so, I don't really hold it against you. I think it's about the same reason Thom is so hateful to me. I'm an apostate to your religion and a huge part of Seed culture is predicated on fear and loathing of any outsiders, but most especially infidels like me.

marshall:
I was at the Seed for a little over a year and Art had the limo (driven by Robert) when I got there and when I left. So he definitely had it for more than a year. We were told it (or a previous limo, not sure) was a gift from Jackie Gleason. I was also told by oldcomers that Robert indeed functioned as a body guard for Art. I don't think he had any official position or designation as a bodyguard, but it was generally understood that this was the case and nobody seemed to think much of it at the time. I still drop by to read here from time to time and was surprised to see that Ginger and Terry are still at it. Thanks again Ginger and Greg for providing this forum. It really helped sort things out for me...the good, the bad and the ugly.  You guys take care.

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