Jeez Survivors

[Che Gookin]

Ginger, thank-you, I really appreciate what you said.
 I saw the post but I wasnt going to respond because the individual obviously didnt have any facts and for that poster I dont know what program you were in but Richard did close St. Pete. You said oh you didnt close them all, Im sorry I did what i could in my home town an then was busy falling apart. Perhaps you could be more productive if you stopped the attacks and tried to be part of the solution. If you 7th stepped as you say, and "got yourself out" thats good but did you think of those you left behind, there is a difference between thinking of those still in and due to damage suffered in Straight not being able to help because of where one is emotionally and not even thinking of them at all. You seem to be self consumned , unlike the survivors that have put their names, money, family on the line to help others - those include Ginger , Richard, Sammy , Mike , Chris and many others.
What i really here in your post is anger and guilt but not at me, it seems you jumped right on it and perhaps feel guilty that you may not have been part of the solution even to this day, thats ok, no time like the present to start. No one should feel guilty about not doing something right after getting out , we had all just been through hell. Yes, I went to the authorities and closed it and Straight St. Pete begin to shuffle money and things which in turn woke Richard up, Richard closed St.Pete , Richards action in turn prompted others to go after other Florida programs, so we were all working together without knowing it. I found it difficult that you would actually be angry that Richard and I didnt close all programs. Do you have any idea what it took out of me to do what little I did do, no of course you don't, BTW I also worked with another survivor to start ISAC and we went after many other programs , and lauched several rescue missions of those still in, that survivor and I risked our family, our finances. Ginger has been sued, threatned lawsuits, put money in the board, paid for us to meet here, Richard has put thousands into efforts to get semblers under oath, sammy put herself and her emotions on national television and founded survivors of straight, for all of us revisiting it all was emotionally VERY hard.
If you poster have not been part of the solution thats ok, some can  some cant. There were times I couldnt get involved because I just couldnt.
But if you cant be part of the solution perhaps you shouldnt attack those that are doing what they can to get justice. I am sorry that we didnt close all the programs, but I know I did what I could and could do no more.

Perhaps you could not post anon but tell us who you are since you seem so angry. BTW its because Ginger cares and does put her money where her mouth is that you are even able to post here and meet other survivors and talk. Its because of Richard that St. Pete was closed if you were there, how many lives did he save because the never went into an intake because the program wasnt there. Yet, all you have to say is "yeah but yall didnt close all the programs".
Your opinon of me does not strike me as important but those survivors i mentioned have earned respect because they cared and still do.

Richard " Hey Mel, I got your penis pump!" Bradbury is one hell of an inspiration. There goes a man with a pair of huevos rancheros the size of cruise missiles.

[Fire Swamp]

My point was, programs keep things hidden.

Then by the same token, we could ask the question: Didn't programs insist we reveal everything about ourselves, and wouldn't a requirement that everyone reveal their identity be similar to a program, too? Food for thought, eh?

I would answer your question if you weren't posting anonymously.

Ok tony, logged in now, and re-posing the question...

[Anonymous]

You said oh you didnt close them all, Im sorry I did what i could in my home town an then was busy falling apart.

No, a couple of people responded to the poster who was chastising people for questioning you with this comment, "I've seen people rip Richard, Marti apart and yet they are the very ones that got all of you out."

Someone had/has a problem with that part of the post.  That's all.  They had nothing to do with me getting out and it looks like others too.

Perhaps you could be more productive if you stopped the attacks and tried to be part of the solution.

Blow it out your ass.  I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing that.

If you 7th stepped as you say, and "got yourself out" thats good but did you think of those you left behind, there is a difference between thinking of those still in and due to damage suffered in Straight not being able to help because of where one is emotionally and not even thinking of them at all.

Again blow it out your ass.  You aren't the only one who has 'worked for the cause'.

You seem to be self consumned , unlike the survivors that have put their names, money, family on the line to help others - those include Ginger , Richard, Sammy , Mike , Chris and many others.
What i really here in your post is anger and guilt but not at me, it seems you jumped right on it and perhaps feel guilty that you may not have been part of the solution even to this day, thats ok, no time like the present to start.

And again.  Jeez, get over yourself.


 

No one should feel guilty about not doing something right after getting out , we had all just been through hell. Yes, I went to the authorities and closed it and Straight St. Pete begin to shuffle money and things which in turn woke Richard up, Richard closed St.Pete , Richards action in turn prompted others to go after other Florida programs, so we were all working together without knowing it. I found it difficult that you would actually be angry that Richard and I didnt close all programs.

No, they were annoyed at the comment I quoted above.


 

Do you have any idea what it took out of me to do what little I did do, no of course you don't, BTW I also worked with another survivor to start ISAC and we went after many other programs , and lauched several rescue missions of those still in, that survivor and I risked our family, our finances. Ginger has been sued, threatned lawsuits, put money in the board, paid for us to meet here, Richard has put thousands into efforts to get semblers under oath, sammy put herself and her emotions on national television and founded survivors of straight, for all of us revisiting it all was emotionally VERY hard.
If you poster have not been part of the solution thats ok, some can  some cant. There were times I couldnt get involved because I just couldnt.

Wonderful.  Still doesn't mean you were the only ones who've done anything.

But if you cant be part of the solution perhaps you shouldnt attack those that are doing what they can to get justice. I am sorry that we didnt close all the programs, but I know I did what I could and could do no more.

 :beat:  :soapbox:

Perhaps you could not post anon but tell us who you are since you seem so angry.

Why?  What good would that do me?  Why is it so important that you know anons names?

BTW its because Ginger cares and does put her money where her mouth is that you are even able to post here and meet other survivors and talk. Its because of Richard that St. Pete was closed if you were there, how many lives did he save because the never went into an intake because the program wasnt there. Yet, all you have to say is "yeah but yall didnt close all the programs".

No, what we said was that neither you nor Rich had anything to do with us getting out.  You didn't.  Accept that and move on.

Your opinon of me does not strike me as important but those survivors i mentioned have earned respect because they cared and still do.

Oh fuck off.

 :twofinger:  :roflmao:

[Anonymous]

You said oh you didnt close them all, Im sorry I did what i could in my home town an then was busy falling apart.

No, a couple of people responded to the poster who was chastising people for questioning you with this comment, "I've seen people rip Richard, Marti apart and yet they are the very ones that got all of you out."

Someone had/has a problem with that part of the post. That's all. They had nothing to do with me getting out and it looks like others too.

Perhaps you could be more productive if you stopped the attacks and tried to be part of the solution.

Blow it out your ass. I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing that.

If you 7th stepped as you say, and "got yourself out" thats good but did you think of those you left behind, there is a difference between thinking of those still in and due to damage suffered in Straight not being able to help because of where one is emotionally and not even thinking of them at all.

Again blow it out your ass. You aren't the only one who has 'worked for the cause'.

You seem to be self consumned , unlike the survivors that have put their names, money, family on the line to help others - those include Ginger , Richard, Sammy , Mike , Chris and many others.
What i really here in your post is anger and guilt but not at me, it seems you jumped right on it and perhaps feel guilty that you may not have been part of the solution even to this day, thats ok, no time like the present to start.

And again. Jeez, get over yourself.

No one should feel guilty about not doing something right after getting out , we had all just been through hell. Yes, I went to the authorities and closed it and Straight St. Pete begin to shuffle money and things which in turn woke Richard up, Richard closed St.Pete , Richards action in turn prompted others to go after other Florida programs, so we were all working together without knowing it. I found it difficult that you would actually be angry that Richard and I didnt close all programs.

No, they were annoyed at the comment I quoted above.

Do you have any idea what it took out of me to do what little I did do, no of course you don't, BTW I also worked with another survivor to start ISAC and we went after many other programs , and lauched several rescue missions of those still in, that survivor and I risked our family, our finances. Ginger has been sued, threatned lawsuits, put money in the board, paid for us to meet here, Richard has put thousands into efforts to get semblers under oath, sammy put herself and her emotions on national television and founded survivors of straight, for all of us revisiting it all was emotionally VERY hard.
If you poster have not been part of the solution thats ok, some can some cant. There were times I couldnt get involved because I just couldnt.

Wonderful. Still doesn't mean you were the only ones who've done anything.

But if you cant be part of the solution perhaps you shouldnt attack those that are doing what they can to get justice. I am sorry that we didnt close all the programs, but I know I did what I could and could do no more.

:beat: :soapbox:

Perhaps you could not post anon but tell us who you are since you seem so angry.

Why? What good would that do me? Why is it so important that you know anons names?

BTW its because Ginger cares and does put her money where her mouth is that you are even able to post here and meet other survivors and talk. Its because of Richard that St. Pete was closed if you were there, how many lives did he save because the never went into an intake because the program wasnt there. Yet, all you have to say is "yeah but yall didnt close all the programs".

No, what we said was that neither you nor Rich had anything to do with us getting out. You didn't. Accept that and move on.

Your opinon of me does not strike me as important but those survivors i mentioned have earned respect because they cared and still do.

Oh fuck off.

:twofinger: :roflmao:

what he said

[Che Gookin]

My point was, programs keep things hidden.

Then by the same token, we could ask the question: Didn't programs insist we reveal everything about ourselves, and wouldn't a requirement that everyone reveal their identity be similar to a program, too? Food for thought, eh?

I would answer your question if you weren't posting anonymously.

Ok tony, logged in now, and re-posing the question...

Be sure you do a search on this guy's posts tony. You'll find out that your earlier little rant up in the News section was directed towards the wrong person. While I do enjoy trolling you, it is very rarely these days me.

Enjoy, because yah just know I'm smiling.

 :twofinger:

[Anonymous]

You said oh you didnt close them all, Im sorry I did what i could in my home town an then was busy falling apart.

No, a couple of people responded to the poster who was chastising people for questioning you with this comment, "I've seen people rip Richard, Marti apart and yet they are the very ones that got all of you out."

Someone had/has a problem with that part of the post.  That's all.  They had nothing to do with me getting out and it looks like others too.

Perhaps you could be more productive if you stopped the attacks and tried to be part of the solution.

Blow it out your ass.  I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing that.

If you 7th stepped as you say, and "got yourself out" thats good but did you think of those you left behind, there is a difference between thinking of those still in and due to damage suffered in Straight not being able to help because of where one is emotionally and not even thinking of them at all.

Again blow it out your ass.  You aren't the only one who has 'worked for the cause'.

You seem to be self consumned , unlike the survivors that have put their names, money, family on the line to help others - those include Ginger , Richard, Sammy , Mike , Chris and many others.
What i really here in your post is anger and guilt but not at me, it seems you jumped right on it and perhaps feel guilty that you may not have been part of the solution even to this day, thats ok, no time like the present to start.

And again.  Jeez, get over yourself.


 

No one should feel guilty about not doing something right after getting out , we had all just been through hell. Yes, I went to the authorities and closed it and Straight St. Pete begin to shuffle money and things which in turn woke Richard up, Richard closed St.Pete , Richards action in turn prompted others to go after other Florida programs, so we were all working together without knowing it. I found it difficult that you would actually be angry that Richard and I didnt close all programs.

No, they were annoyed at the comment I quoted above.


 

Do you have any idea what it took out of me to do what little I did do, no of course you don't, BTW I also worked with another survivor to start ISAC and we went after many other programs , and lauched several rescue missions of those still in, that survivor and I risked our family, our finances. Ginger has been sued, threatned lawsuits, put money in the board, paid for us to meet here, Richard has put thousands into efforts to get semblers under oath, sammy put herself and her emotions on national television and founded survivors of straight, for all of us revisiting it all was emotionally VERY hard.
If you poster have not been part of the solution thats ok, some can  some cant. There were times I couldnt get involved because I just couldnt.

Wonderful.  Still doesn't mean you were the only ones who've done anything.

But if you cant be part of the solution perhaps you shouldnt attack those that are doing what they can to get justice. I am sorry that we didnt close all the programs, but I know I did what I could and could do no more.

 :beat:  :soapbox:

Perhaps you could not post anon but tell us who you are since you seem so angry.

Why?  What good would that do me?  Why is it so important that you know anons names?

BTW its because Ginger cares and does put her money where her mouth is that you are even able to post here and meet other survivors and talk. Its because of Richard that St. Pete was closed if you were there, how many lives did he save because the never went into an intake because the program wasnt there. Yet, all you have to say is "yeah but yall didnt close all the programs".

No, what we said was that neither you nor Rich had anything to do with us getting out.  You didn't.  Accept that and move on.

Your opinon of me does not strike me as important but those survivors i mentioned have earned respect because they cared and still do.

Oh fuck off.

 :twofinger:  :roflmao:

It seems that what we have here is a failure to communicate..  ::deadhorse::  :roflmao:  :beat:  :cheers:  :rocker:  :rofl:

[FemanonFatal2.0]

I have not agreed with many things you have said on Fornits but that is Free Speech and I respect them as your opinions.

I whole heartedly agree, I think disagreeing with each other is the foundation of what makes us individuals however even though we dont share the same thoughts and feelings we still learn a lot from each other when we choose to express ourselves. I would never hate on someone because they have a difference in opinion, I may tell my opinion and challenge their thought process but I have plenty of friends and people I look up to who have the exact opposite set of beliefs and I wouldnt dream for a minute of trying to convince them of differently. I will always be drawn to a good debate, especially when our topic can be analyzed from many different angles and different theories and solutions can be applied.

Just so your aware, Tony I respect you. I don't think having a difference of opinion would separate any of us or cast any kind of grudge against each other, I think its all in good intentions that we come here to express our opinions and challenge those of others... its how we progressively shape our experience of this industry as a whole. So dont take anything I may say personally, if you and I meet someday I will most likely give you lots of hugs.

Could you please elaborate on what you meant when you wrote,"Fornits members"? I have been posting on Fornits for over a year and I am not sure if I am one of these members of which you speak.

I'm honestly surprised you would say that. I figure all registered posters on Fornits are Fornits members, no matter what your stance is... I dont believe our opinions on one thing or other make us either part of one group or another, I have always figured we are a collective, all bringing our own flavor to the dish that is Fornits.

there are many grey areas in life that are more healthy and deliver a better mix.

I have never really considered myself a black and white person, it is possible that my opinions are biased when it comes to the program, or possibly program parents because my experience has lead me to develop a strong theory that I have seen proven too many times to count. Something you might now know about me is that for many years I worked with struggling families, and many times lived with them and observed their every day interactions. I have experienced first hand the type of parent that would and has sent their children to programs and it is NOT pretty. Please know that I wouldn't have even made these assumptions if I hadn't had extensive experience with the subject. I will never say that my theory about a certain subject applies to ALL people, and I will always acknowledge exceptions but I think that it is fair to say that my theory according to my observations is very likely to be true. You don't have to agree with my theory to at least realize that there are a lot of parents out there who are not doing their best to raise their children and the fact that kids end up in programs is just a symptom of this.

I'm sorry about what happened to all these people who were messed up in programs but I don't come here (most of the time) for a chuckle.

Neither do I, but it happens when people use humor on a forum.

I think it is possible to have moderate rules that make good sense without being totalitarian.

I agree, but dont think its moral to expect any of us to enforce such.

[Anonymous]

You said oh you didnt close them all, Im sorry I did what i could in my home town an then was busy falling apart.

No, a couple of people responded to the poster who was chastising people for questioning you with this comment, "I've seen people rip Richard, Marti apart and yet they are the very ones that got all of you out."

Someone had/has a problem with that part of the post. That's all. They had nothing to do with me getting out and it looks like others too.

Perhaps you could be more productive if you stopped the attacks and tried to be part of the solution.

Blow it out your ass. I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing that.

If you 7th stepped as you say, and "got yourself out" thats good but did you think of those you left behind, there is a difference between thinking of those still in and due to damage suffered in Straight not being able to help because of where one is emotionally and not even thinking of them at all.

Again blow it out your ass. You aren't the only one who has 'worked for the cause'.

You seem to be self consumned , unlike the survivors that have put their names, money, family on the line to help others - those include Ginger , Richard, Sammy , Mike , Chris and many others.
What i really here in your post is anger and guilt but not at me, it seems you jumped right on it and perhaps feel guilty that you may not have been part of the solution even to this day, thats ok, no time like the present to start.

And again. Jeez, get over yourself.

No one should feel guilty about not doing something right after getting out , we had all just been through hell. Yes, I went to the authorities and closed it and Straight St. Pete begin to shuffle money and things which in turn woke Richard up, Richard closed St.Pete , Richards action in turn prompted others to go after other Florida programs, so we were all working together without knowing it. I found it difficult that you would actually be angry that Richard and I didnt close all programs.

No, they were annoyed at the comment I quoted above.

Do you have any idea what it took out of me to do what little I did do, no of course you don't, BTW I also worked with another survivor to start ISAC and we went after many other programs , and lauched several rescue missions of those still in, that survivor and I risked our family, our finances. Ginger has been sued, threatned lawsuits, put money in the board, paid for us to meet here, Richard has put thousands into efforts to get semblers under oath, sammy put herself and her emotions on national television and founded survivors of straight, for all of us revisiting it all was emotionally VERY hard.
If you poster have not been part of the solution thats ok, some can some cant. There were times I couldnt get involved because I just couldnt.

Wonderful. Still doesn't mean you were the only ones who've done anything.

But if you cant be part of the solution perhaps you shouldnt attack those that are doing what they can to get justice. I am sorry that we didnt close all the programs, but I know I did what I could and could do no more.

:beat: :soapbox:

Perhaps you could not post anon but tell us who you are since you seem so angry.

Why? What good would that do me? Why is it so important that you know anons names?

BTW its because Ginger cares and does put her money where her mouth is that you are even able to post here and meet other survivors and talk. Its because of Richard that St. Pete was closed if you were there, how many lives did he save because the never went into an intake because the program wasnt there. Yet, all you have to say is "yeah but yall didnt close all the programs".

No, what we said was that neither you nor Rich had anything to do with us getting out. You didn't. Accept that and move on.

Your opinon of me does not strike me as important but those survivors i mentioned have earned respect because they cared and still do.

Oh fuck off.

:twofinger: :roflmao:

what he said

What he said X 2!!

It's obvious that Marti is the one that started this thread. She posts as a guest and mentions her name as one of the people that's being attacked so she can then respond and remind us all that she is the ULTIMATE SURVIVOR.  Then she agrees with the OP which is priceless since it's her post to begin with!! She was soley responsible for closing  st8 you know. Did I mention that she is the one that closed st8? OH, did you all know that Marti closed st8?

[Anonymous]

I aint all inta that he said she said shit, but I sure know bout that kid that's on first phase up there in STRAIGHT, MI. OOOPS, I mean PFC "looks" like PFC  but it's really STRAIGHT, INC. So nobody shut down STRAIGHT, INC. Go ahead and argue all you want, but if ya got a kid on their phases right now, whose been in there for 2 years, more than 10 others in there RIGHT now or so for over a year and a kid who right now is on first phase/level one NO TnR... since his intake in the first week ofJune 2008, you still got STRAIGHT all the way, bangin on all 8 cylinders. It aint closed. Never convince me it is anyways. They cut down 90% on the overall group size so as to avoid the percentages of disgruntled clients, but they still generate over at least a million or 4 dollars a year. As you can see by her award, Betty might as well have spit in everyone's face or worse. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.  :clown:  :clown:  :clown:  :clown:

[wdtony]

My point was, programs keep things hidden.

Then by the same token, we could ask the question: Didn't programs insist we reveal everything about ourselves, and wouldn't a requirement that everyone reveal their identity be similar to a program, too? Food for thought, eh?

I would answer your question if you weren't posting anonymously.

Ok tony, logged in now, and re-posing the question...

It's nice to know someone really wants to talk to me so much.

Ok, KHK did make us all reveal every detail about ourselves including false confessions about our past. So the answer to that question would be yes, programs do insist we reveal everything.

Now the second question, which is in the same sentence as the first, diverts from the first question. It is also off topic because we are not talking about revealing our identity, we are discussing posting anonymously as opposed to posting as a registered user. Posting as a registered user on SOME forums does not require a person to reveal their identity. What it does do is keep a person from posting as several people when they are only one or taking pot-shots at people without being held accountable for what is said.

I do not think that having some semblance and order makes anything similar, in and of itself, to a program. BUT if there "were" a "requirement" to reveal any "identities", I wouldn't condone that. What I am speaking of is that person A remains person A throughout discussions and therefore there is much less confusion as to who is writing what.

I also believe that if someone is writing as a guest (aka anonymous), then "guest" is what should be viewed. It is confusing to me as I am sure it is to others that when someone writes another person's name or user-name, that some may believe that it is that person or user writing the message. I am sure this has been used as a device to deceive and confuse. Tell me what value this deception or confusion can have when attempting to explain the truth about programs to anyone. I find this nonsensical and could be used maliciously.

No one is forcing anyone to write about themselves here. People write what they want here. Having something short of chaos does not make it similar to a program.

[Anonymous]

What he said X 2!!

It's obvious that Marti is the one that started this thread. She posts as a guest and mentions her name as one of the people that's being attacked so she can then respond and remind us all that she is the ULTIMATE SURVIVOR.  Then she agrees with the OP which is priceless since it's her post to begin with!! She was soley responsible for closing  st8 you know. Did I mention that she is the one that closed st8? OH, did you all know that Marti closed st8?

I never said that.  I just said that whoever DID post that comment was wrong.  I have no idea if it was Marti or not.  But I hear ya!  I just get sick and tired of being told that no one who's anon does anything.  This "perhaps you could be more effective" crap......      This  amateur, over a message board psychiatric dxing, i.e.........What i really here in your post is anger and guilt but not at me, it seems you jumped right on it and perhaps feel guilty that you may not have been part of the solution even to this day, thats ok, no time like the present to start.  I mean, come on.  What a load. :sue:

[Anonymous]

Now the second question, which is in the same sentence as the first, diverts from the first question. It is also off topic because we are not talking about revealing our identity, we are discussing posting anonymously as opposed to posting as a registered user. Posting as a registered user on SOME forums does not require a person to reveal their identity. What it does do is keep a person from posting as several people when they are only one or taking pot-shots at people without being held accountable for what is said.

Nonsense.  People could just create 4,5,6 or more accounts.  Quit trying to control the board.

I do not think that having some semblance and order makes anything similar, in and of itself, to a program. BUT if there "were" a "requirement" to reveal any "identities", I wouldn't condone that. What I am speaking of is that person A remains person A throughout discussions and therefore there is much less confusion as to who is writing what.

I also believe that if someone is writing as a guest (aka anonymous), then "guest" is what should be viewed. It is confusing to me as I am sure it is to others that when someone writes another person's name or user-name, that some may believe that it is that person or user writing the message. I am sure this has been used as a device to deceive and confuse. Tell me what value this deception or confusion can have when attempting to explain the truth about programs to anyone. I find this nonsensical and could be used maliciously.

Could be used maliciously??  Do you hear yourself?

No one is forcing anyone to write about themselves here. People write what they want here. Having something short of chaos does not make it similar to a program.

No, but after being in a program there are some of us who LIKE being anonymous for whatever reason.  Why does it matter so much?    You'd lose a shitload of posters if you went to a registration required board.

[Anonymous]

Wdtony, when you said, "My point was, programs keep things hidden," you made an analogy referring to how it is your feeling that people shouldn't be allowed to hide on here by posting anonymously. I then asked you, "By the same token . . . wouldn't a requirement that everyone reveal their identity be similar to a program?" which was simply an analogy based on the same assertion you made your analogy on, hoping you would see both sides of making such a ridiculous non-sequitor as: 'Programs hide things, so no one should hide anything here.'

wdtony, this line of reasoning you put forth here is unadulterated crap at best. If you argued with me like this in person I might have to split an ear off you. Only women get awawy with this sort of shit in my world. I can't hit them, though sometimes I'd like to. Why is it ok for you to make analogies, but not ok for anyone else to do it or they are "divert[ing] from the first question"? I was not diverting from anything. This statement was completely uncalled for. You harped on this thing about identities instead of seeing the error in your thought process.

wdtony, if you were in the program you would be started over for being full of shit and you would truly deserve that startover.  :rofl:  You have one hell of a lot of gall trying to say that your analogy holds sway, but that my equally valid analogy does not hold way. Do you think about what you say, or is it that you just want to be right all the time? I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.

Jim Jones

[Anonymous]

Me thinks I detect the presence of a droogie.

[Antigen]

I'm honestly surprised you would say that. I figure all registered posters on Fornits are Fornits members, no matter what your stance is...

I don't really like the term "Fornits members". It's not a membership organization. It's just a venue. Just like an old fashioned corner pub, the regulars tend to make friends and enemies and various kinds of alliances among themselves. And walk ins sometimes feel uncomfortable or excluded. As chief cook and bottle washer, all I can do is try to make everyone feel welcome and to be sure everyone is served. What happens beyond that is entirely up to the patrons, both regulars and wayfarers alike.


Here's the story that inspired my biker bar allegory:

Tradition holds that in May 1775, when the citizens of Westmoreland gathered at the Hannastown Tavern and issued their own Declaration of Independence, they tore down the British flag that was flying there and made some modifications. The original flag had an open red field with the British ensign in the upper corner. They painted a coiled rattlesnake and its "Don't Tread on Me" warning onto the center, as if ready to strike at the Union Jack.

I dont believe our opinions on one thing or other make us either part of one group or another, I have always figured we are a collective, all bringing our own flavor to the dish that is Fornits.

Yes, this is very, very true.