Author Topic: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment  (Read 1488 times)

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Offline AuntieEm2

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Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« on: December 29, 2008, 03:10:53 PM »
A scientist at Santa Clara University has repeated the notorious experiment conducted in 1963 by Stanley Milgram. Here is the link to the full article in the American Psychologist. http://http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp641-1.pdf
I do not know how long that will be publically available, so you might want to download it soon.

Here is a summary of Milgram's original experiment and Jerry Burger's recent one (New York Times, "Four Decades After Milgram, We’re Still Willing to Inflict Pain"). http://http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/opinion/29mon3.html?th&emc=th
Sadly, 70 percent of people were willing, when ordered by an authority figure to do so, to administer what they thought was a lethal electric shock to a "learner" who had not given a correct answer.

Sound familiar?

Auntie Em
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2008, 07:34:22 PM »
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
Here is a summary of Milgram's original experiment and Jerry Burger's recent one (New York Times, "Four Decades After Milgram, We’re Still Willing to Inflict Pain"). http://http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/opinion/29mon3.html?th&emc=th
Sadly, 70 percent of people were willing, when ordered by an authority figure to do so, to administer what they thought was a lethal electric shock to a "learner" who had not given a correct answer.

Thanks for posting this, Ems. I think way too many people have been complacent about the results of Milgram's original experiment. It must have been all that "cruelty," inflated "self-interest," and naiveté of the Sixties generation that made them blindly heed authority, eh? ...Nope, guess again! Things really haven't changed all that much in forty-five years!

Here's the New York Times opinion piece:

—•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•—

The New York Times
EDITORIAL OBSERVER
Four Decades After Milgram, We’re Still Willing to Inflict Pain
By ADAM COHEN
Published: December 28, 2008


In 1963, Stanley Milgram, an assistant professor of psychology at Yale, published his infamous experiment on obedience to authority. Its conclusion was that most ordinary people were willing to administer what they believed to be painful, even dangerous, electric shocks to innocent people if a man in a white lab coat told them to.

For the first time in four decades, a researcher has repeated the Milgram experiment to find out whether, after all we have learned in the last 45 years, Americans are still as willing to inflict pain out of blind obedience.

The Milgram experiment was carried out in the shadow of the Holocaust. The trial of Adolf Eichmann had the world wondering how the Nazis were able to persuade so many ordinary Germans to participate in the murder of innocents. Professor Milgram devised a clever way of testing, in a laboratory setting, man’s (and woman’s) willingness to do evil.

The participants — ordinary residents of New Haven — were told they were participating in a study of the effect of punishment on learning. A “learner” was strapped in a chair in an adjacent room, and electrodes were attached to the learner’s arm. The participant was told to read test questions, and to administer a shock when the learner gave the wrong answer.

The shocks were not real. But the participants were told they were — and instructed to increase the voltage with every wrong answer. At 150 volts, the participant could hear the learner cry in protest, complain of heart pain, and ask to be released from the study. After 330 volts, the learner made no noise at all, suggesting he was no longer capable of responding. Through it all, the scientist in the room kept telling the participant to ignore the protests — or the unsettling silence — and administer an increasingly large shock for each wrong answer or non-answer.

The Milgram experiment’s startling result — as anyone who has taken a college psychology course knows — was that ordinary people were willing to administer a lot of pain to innocent strangers if an authority figure instructed them to do so. More than 80 percent of participants continued after administering the 150-volt shock, and 65 percent went all the way up to 450 volts.

Jerry Burger of Santa Clara University replicated the experiment and has now published his findings in American Psychologist. He made one slight change in the protocol, in deference to ethical standards developed since 1963. He stopped when a participant believed he had administered a 150-volt shock. (He also screened out people familiar with the original experiment.)

Professor Burger’s results were nearly identical to Professor Milgram’s. Seventy percent of his participants administered the 150-volt shock and had to be stopped. That is less than in the original experiment, but not enough to be significant.

Much has changed since 1963. The civil rights and antiwar movements taught Americans to question authority. Institutions that were once accorded great deference — including the government and the military — are now eyed warily. Yet it appears that ordinary Americans are about as willing to blindly follow orders to inflict pain on an innocent stranger as they were four decades ago.

Professor Burger was not surprised. He believes that the mindset of the individual participant — including cultural influences — is less important than the “situational features” that Professor Milgram shrewdly built into his experiment. These include having the authority figure take responsibility for the decision to administer the shock, and having the participant increase the voltage gradually. It is hard to say no to administering a 195-volt shock when you have just given a 180-volt shock.

The results of both experiments pose a challenge. If this is how most people behave, how do we prevent more Holocausts, Abu Ghraibs and other examples of wanton cruelty? Part of the answer, Professor Burger argues, is teaching people about the experiment so they will know to be on guard against these tendencies, in themselves and others.

An instructor at West Point contacted Professor Burger to say that she was teaching her students about his findings. She had the right idea — and the right audience. The findings of these two experiments should be part of the basic training for soldiers, police officers, jailers and anyone else whose position gives them the power to inflict abuse on others.

A version of this article appeared in print on December 29, 2008, on page A22 of the New York edition.
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Offline AuntieEm2

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2008, 09:52:58 AM »
Hey, Ursus,

I find it very significant that the test subjects were administering these apparently very painful-to-lethal shocks to people called "learners"--not people called "test subjects" or "volunteers" or "helpers" or "assistants" or other term. So they were given to believe that this abuse was specifically intended to "teach a lesson."

Makes me wonder what percentage of them would have administered a lethal shock to a person called a "troubled teen." I'd like to see those research results.

Thankfully, 30% of the test subjects would not participate in this "legitimized" cruelty.    

Auntie Em
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Offline The Palace Worm

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2008, 04:29:09 PM »
Sadly, AuntieEm2 is right.  The pain becomes much easier to inflict when you can make liberal use of terms like, "Spoiled"  "Drama Queen"  and even "Underachiever"  But then, this labeling has been part of this industry since its inception.  How many sites recommend their "Program" for kids with, "Entitlement Issues?"  I guess anything can mean just what you want it to mean, as long as it doesn't happen to you.

Very Sincerely,
The Palace Worm
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Offline AuntieEm2

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2008, 04:57:05 PM »
Welcome, Very Sincere Palace Worm.

I've talked about this before, but the shift in my family's perception of my niece after she was sent to a program was profound. Alarming. Scary.

Once she became labeled as having behavioral difficulties, anger problems and a mental illness, history was rewritten. Now they talk about how she has always been a "difficult child." Huh? Any report of angry or defiant behavior at the school is "part of her illness." What? I've managed to marginalize myself in the family by insisting that this is not so. No one can give me examples (other than her parents stories and reports from the program) of behavior they witnessed that was defiant, angry or ill--but they all have adopted this view of her anyway.

The saddest part--other than the whole imprisonment thing--is that the expectations for this girl have now been set so low. They have gone from expecting that this bright young woman will finish high school and attend college to hoping (praying!) she will learn to balance a checkbook. Well, well: after a quarter million dollars and three years of continuous schooling, she can balance a checkbook. Hooray.

I think they will be enrolling her in the Special Olympics soon.  

Auntie Em
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Offline psy

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2008, 05:37:44 PM »
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
The saddest part--other than the whole imprisonment thing--is that the expectations for this girl have now been set so low. They have gone from expecting that this bright young woman will finish high school and attend college to hoping (praying!) she will learn to balance a checkbook. Well, well: after a quarter million dollars and three years of continuous schooling, she can balance a checkbook. Hooray.

I think they will be enrolling her in the Special Olympics soon.  

Auntie Em

That's not the saddest part.  The saddest part is that the girl will adopt that view of herself, and go nowhere because she believe she's incapable of getting anywhere... She'll learn not to try to succeed.

AA has this doctrine which is also common in programs basically stating: take it a day at a time...  It sounds benign on it's surface but what it really means (especially in the program's context) is: don't look to your future, because you'll just fail, disappoint yourself, and get back into your "sickness".

As you note, they tell the parents to expect the worst too, so i'm sure they'll be less likely to invest in or otherwise encourage their kids.  Parents adopt the whole concept of powerlessness also, seeing their kids as permanently damaged.  As a result, they'll be less likely to invest in their kid's future or even give them encouragement.  Of course this just creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2008, 11:35:06 PM »
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
Welcome, Very Sincere Palace Worm.

I've talked about this before, but the shift in my family's perception of my niece after she was sent to a program was profound. Alarming. Scary.

Once she became labeled as having behavioral difficulties, anger problems and a mental illness, history was rewritten. Now they talk about how she has always been a "difficult child." Huh? Any report of angry or defiant behavior at the school is "part of her illness." What? I've managed to marginalize myself in the family by insisting that this is not so. No one can give me examples (other than her parents stories and reports from the program) of behavior they witnessed that was defiant, angry or ill--but they all have adopted this view of her anyway.

The saddest part--other than the whole imprisonment thing--is that the expectations for this girl have now been set so low. They have gone from expecting that this bright young woman will finish high school and attend college to hoping (praying!) she will learn to balance a checkbook. Well, well: after a quarter million dollars and three years of continuous schooling, she can balance a checkbook. Hooray.

I think they will be enrolling her in the Special Olympics soon.  

Auntie Em

It is your job to set your niece's perceptions of herself to rights. Good luck with that.. i don't envy your task.
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Offline AuntieEm2

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2008, 11:40:37 AM »
Thanks, psy and che.

I am, quite honestly, apprehesive about how to go forward with her, but am damn well going to try. So many people here on fornits have advised that just being there for her, letting her talk, and not being a crazy, kool-aid-drinking programmie like her parents will be helpful--and patience and love. I can do that. I don't have illusions about "fixing" her. I do want her to know that I have always thought she was lovable as-is, and capable of great and wonderful things.

I think what I worry about is that she will no longer regard me as worth listening to or talking to--I'm not sure how to express this, but from what others have said, she will likely see herself as better than other people who have not run the gauntlet of a program. Will she want anything to do with me?

Back to the Milgram experiment, I am reading the full article. Participants were told this was research to understand the effect of punishment on learning. So comparing this to programs is not a stretch at all.

Auntie Em
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Replicating Milgram's Torture Experiment
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 04:59:18 PM »
Well, yeah. I could have told you all this. How do you think I stay in business?
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