Film on Aaron Bacon

[FemanonFatal2.0]

I must also add... you obviously don't know the story about Aaron bacon because he was NOT on the road to anywhere besides a good college and a successful career. He was a good, smart kid who smoked some weed once in a while. That is NOT the road to prison and the fact that you would assume so just completely proves my theory... again.

As well, id like to point out that you are posting under a guest name as well... you don't have an account and this name, Bellavita isn't exactly a tell of who you are. And as you mentioned you prefer to not have what you say held against you in court, so why would you bash on someone who preferred to remain anonymous? Are you being purposefully contradictive or are you really that dumb?

[psy]

As well, id like to point out that you are posting under a guest name as well... you don't have an account and this name, Bellavita isn't exactly a tell of who you are.

She did have an account.  She asked me to delete it and I did as requested.  All her posts are thus attributed to guests now.

I would suggest leaving it.  She isn't reading Fornits anymore, anyway.  Was the criticism of Aaron Bacon's parents on this thread inappropriate, even downright cruel?  I think it was.  What's happened has happened.  I think the Bacons know where they made mistakes.  I'd like to see half the people on this thread say the shit they said here to Robert Bacon's face.

Furthermore, Bellavita is a new parent to fornits who just pulled her kid out of a program and, guess what, realizes she made a mistake and feels bad enough as it is...  Can you imagine what it must feel like to suddenly find out you sent your kid to an abusive place when you thought it was going to be safe.  And she gets attacked by us?  I'm sure she feels really supported in her decision to pull her son.  It's no wonder most parents don't stick around here too long, even when they do the right thing.  I can't force anybody here to be nice to parents but...  fuck!  You get more FAR more with honey than vinegar.  "Program Parent Disorder" is not a progressive and incurable disease.  People can and do change their minds, but they're far less likely to even listen at all if you insult or talk down to them (not that everybody isn't guilty of this at some points in time, self included).

[Anonymous]

As well, id like to point out that you are posting under a guest name as well... you don't have an account and this name, Bellavita isn't exactly a tell of who you are.

She did have an account.  She asked me to delete it and I did as requested.  All her posts are thus attributed to guests now.

I would suggest leaving it.  She isn't reading Fornits anymore, anyway.  Was the criticism of Aaron Bacon's parents on this thread inappropriate, even downright cruel?  I think it was.  What's happened has happened.  I think the Bacons know where they made mistakes.  I'd like to see half the people on this thread say the shit they said here to Robert Bacon's face.

Furthermore, Bellavita is a new parent to fornits who just pulled her kid out of a program and, guess what, realizes she made a mistake and feels bad enough as it is...  Can you imagine what it must feel like to suddenly find out you sent your kid to an abusive place when you thought it was going to be safe.  And she gets attacked by us?  I'm sure she feels really supported in her decision to pull her son.  It's no wonder most parents don't stick around here too long, even when they do the right thing.  I can't force anybody here to be nice to parents but...  fuck!  You get more FAR more with honey than vinegar.  "Program Parent Disorder" is not a progressive and incurable disease.  People can and do change their minds, but they're far less likely to even listen at all if you insult or talk down to them (not that everybody isn't guilty of this at some points in time, self included).

P.P.D, He-he. That should go into the D.S.M.
Can anything you say really be held against you in court here? Even anonymously? Even if it doesn't have to do with the case, persee, as Bella's posts calling us freaks didn't specifically have to do with her case?

Code: [Select]

[Anonymous]

As well, id like to point out that you are posting under a guest name as well... you don't have an account and this name, Bellavita isn't exactly a tell of who you are.

She did have an account.  She asked me to delete it and I did as requested.  All her posts are thus attributed to guests now.

I would suggest leaving it.  She isn't reading Fornits anymore, anyway.  Was the criticism of Aaron Bacon's parents on this thread inappropriate, even downright cruel?  I think it was.  What's happened has happened.  I think the Bacons know where they made mistakes.  I'd like to see half the people on this thread say the shit they said here to Robert Bacon's face.

Furthermore, Bellavita is a new parent to fornits who just pulled her kid out of a program and, guess what, realizes she made a mistake and feels bad enough as it is...  Can you imagine what it must feel like to suddenly find out you sent your kid to an abusive place when you thought it was going to be safe.  And she gets attacked by us?  I'm sure she feels really supported in her decision to pull her son.  It's no wonder most parents don't stick around here too long, even when they do the right thing.  I can't force anybody here to be nice to parents but...  fuck!  You get more FAR more with honey than vinegar.  "Program Parent Disorder" is not a progressive and incurable disease.  People can and do change their minds, but they're far less likely to even listen at all if you insult or talk down to them (not that everybody isn't guilty of this at some points in time, self included).

I would never say some of the things i've said here to the guy's face. Having a coversation with someone and about someone are a little different. Maybe no one should ever talk about the pps' who kids die and speak out afterwards...

[FemanonFatal2.0]

As well, id like to point out that you are posting under a guest name as well... you don't have an account and this name, Bellavita isn't exactly a tell of who you are.

She did have an account.  She asked me to delete it and I did as requested.  All her posts are thus attributed to guests now.

I would suggest leaving it.  She isn't reading Fornits anymore, anyway.  Was the criticism of Aaron Bacon's parents on this thread inappropriate, even downright cruel?  I think it was.  What's happened has happened.  I think the Bacons know where they made mistakes.  I'd like to see half the people on this thread say the shit they said here to Robert Bacon's face.

Furthermore, Bellavita is a new parent to fornits who just pulled her kid out of a program and, guess what, realizes she made a mistake and feels bad enough as it is...  Can you imagine what it must feel like to suddenly find out you sent your kid to an abusive place when you thought it was going to be safe.  And she gets attacked by us?  I'm sure she feels really supported in her decision to pull her son.  It's no wonder most parents don't stick around here too long, even when they do the right thing.  I can't force anybody here to be nice to parents but...  fuck!  You get more FAR more with honey than vinegar.  "Program Parent Disorder" is not a progressive and incurable disease.  People can and do change their minds, but they're far less likely to even listen at all if you insult or talk down to them (not that everybody isn't guilty of this at some points in time, self included).

From what I can tell, this woman's post was chalked full of blame, insult and hate, and all toward US. Why would I even find reason to be accepting of her, I may be diplomatic with a slight twinge of attitude but I am simply pointing out the truth here. Why are you defending her Psy? Can you not see that I simply pointed out how her general mind state is the same that MANY MANY other parents have, and that mind state is was is driving them to have their children locked up. You may be one of those kids who totally forgave their parents, but as much as my mom is wonderful and awesome I will believe until the day I die that we was overreacting to my adolescent behavior. That is the only point I am trying to get across to her and if this Bellavita woman doesnt come back, so what, but what about the other program parents who decide to show up? I think they deserve a dose of reality as well. I know you think its counter productive but it is my STRONG opinion that if these parents don't WAKE THE FUCK UP we will NEVER win against the troubled teen industry.

Perfect example: do you blame the druggie or the drug dealer... You can lock up the drug dealers but if the druggie is still a druggie they will still be driven to find the drugs from another drug dealer. ALL parents I have spoken to weather for or against the program (that they have experience with) will tell me that there is a dire need for these private prisons and that there ARE some good ones out there. Well, unfortunately there are so few that I haven't even heard of ONE and unless we can help these parents realize that they NEED to just raise their kids come hell or high water then we will always have a program to fight because the program will always be in demand.

It makes me sick how sending your kid off to military school or a program or a mental hospital or rehab has become such a "trend" in the last 20 years. The problem is only partially with the program that abuses kids, the blame SHOULD be on the parents who think they don't have to raise their kids and they can just pay to get them out of their lives. I have never said that a parent who wised up and pulled their kid wasn't an appreciated member of this group, I have simply called upon their judgment to send their kid in the first place as an issue that NEEDS to be addressed! If they aren't willing to talk about it than fine, I highly doubt that coming here and insulting the forum members is any more productive than a good debate. I just hope at some point we will have a parent come to fornits, tell their story and listen to our opinions about the fact that it is ILLOGICAL to think that locking a kid up in a private prison is the way to go, and hopefully change their mind state a little bit.

What I don't understand is the discrepancy in your beliefs. You think that addiction is a choice and getting help for that should only be the choice of the addict, however you defend a parent who is perpetually delusional about their child's "problems" as much to say that being "headed down that path" is enough to lock a kid up?... She may have changed her mind about the program, but she HAS NOT changed the root of the reason she decided to imprison her child, and until that belief changes, her son is in danger of being sent off to another private hell, sooner or later. Until these parents start to change their misconceptions about teenagers the programs will always exist and I will always be the one to stand up and challenge the delusional thinking that has for many years resulted in the abuse and utter LIFE FUCKING of our previous, present and forthcoming generations. Even if I am the only one. So Psy you can argue for the sake of each individual parent all you want, you can tell me that I'm wasting my time if that argument is the most valid one you have but really this all comes down to the fact that I believe there is more abuse going on than meets the eye and I am not afraid or guilted into not saying so. Disagree with me all you want, I strongly welcome any intelligent challenges to my theory, but don't tell me not to speak my mind.

[psy]

You don't wake people up by hitting them over the head with a fucking frying pan repeatedly.  No... lol.  That is likely to have the complete opposite effect (as you see, she has left fornits).  Dose of reality is fine.  Overdose...  not so good.  What many surviors don't realize, probably because we learned how to confront so well in program, is that parents are very very fragile and to a certain extent you have to coddle them, go slow, and bite your tongue.  You are smart enough to get your point across without asking "are you really that dumb?" and so on and so forth.  That turns the parents off, they stop listening, and you lose right then and there.  If little Johnny is still at risk for being sent to a program, the parent sure isn't going to come back and ask you for advice.

Asking a question like "how do you know for sure that X kid was definitively on his way to deadinsaneinjail?  Can you tell the future?"  Of course these are just suggestions, but I think you get my point.

[Anonymous]

Can anything you say really be held against you in court here? Even anonymously? Even if it doesn't have to do with the case, persee, as Bella's posts calling us freaks didn't specifically have to do with her case?

Code: [Select]

[/quote]

[Anonymous]

Can anything you say really be held against you in court here?

not legal advice:

Well. If she got into a legal dispute with PFC for example, and they took discovery of her in which they asked for any internet posting, email, etc etc etc in which she mentioned pathway family center, she might have to comply if her lawyers could not suppress that discovery.  So in theory, she might be forced to say "yeah.. that post is mine".  Now whether that would later be admissible into court as relevant evidence is another matter.  In any case, she is wise to say "better safe than sorry...  better consult my attorneys".

Even anonymously? Even if it doesn't have to do with the case, persee, as Bella's posts calling us freaks didn't specifically have to do with her case[/b][/size][/color]?

Code: [Select]

[/quote]

PFC would likely use it to try and paint her as associated with a bunch of fanatical wacko druggies to the judge and jury.  I'm guessing they would refresh the page until they hit the Salvia and then print that off.  A judge would probably say "that's prejudicial... i'm not gonna allow that"... but he might not.  Depends on whether the judge is a friend of or has sympathies for the program or their purported cause.

Believe me.  When programs play in court, they don't give a damn about the rules and will try to make things more about theatre and appeals to emotion than anything else (since the facts are rarely on their side).  When cornered, the'll croak "but this will put us out of business Waaahh...!  The druggie kids will die now without us!  please think of the children!  Waaah"

[FemanonFatal2.0]

You are smart enough to get your point across without asking "are you really that dumb?" and so on and so forth.  That turns the parents off, they stop listening, and you lose right then and there.

LOL fair enough. I can accept a critisim of my tactics in this case HOWEVER, she started the tone off... and I followed suit. You cant expect to run into a room and call everyone in it a freak then receive a monumental amount of respect from said "freaks" lol. I cant change this woman's mind and besides that shes already gone, but at least I said what needed to be said. You and I can play good cop bad cop here if that's what works but honestly I have never bit my tongue for anyone... and I dont think I'll start any time soon.

I'll proceed slowly and carefully when it really counts, you can be assured of that. In most ways this woman is not my concern, simply a representation or an example of my concern BEFORE a parent were to find out about the injustices in the program, BEFORE they kept their kid in a program for 2 years only to find out it was a bad investment and BEFORE their child is killed by a negligent and abusive staff member. Kudos to those who have woken up, but my issue is with those parents who are considering a program right now, and what delusions they are convincing themselves of in order to excuse their urge to purge their child from their everyday lives. I don't believe for a second a vacation from their teenager isn't the main motivating factor that has these parents cocked and loaded to send their kids of to get "help". And lord knows what those cunts are telling their cunty friends... making them believe they finally found that fabled quick fix... "a well deserved vacation for you poor overworked parents, we will take your kids, they'll be fine and you just tell yourself anything you want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about it"

Honestly I'm just sick of the excuses I hear from too many parents... unless the child is seriously psycho and physically abusing them, I believe they will eventually mature and grow out of the adolescent rebellion and there's NOTHING you have to do to help them with that, they will come to on their very own. Parents need to realize what an effect the media has over their fears about their teens future, (hint hint the "out of control teens" on Muary are NOT real!!) Teens have been doing the same stuff for centuries and we have all survived and those that didnt, that was their fate. They chose that path and locking them up for a few years in their teen years makes no difference if they are meant to end up dead, insane or in jail. YOU CANT PREVENT THAT and neither can these programs.

[Oscar]

From what I can tell, this woman's post was chalked full of blame, insult and hate, and all toward US. Why would I even find reason to be accepting of her, I may be diplomatic with a slight twinge of attitude but I am simply pointing out the truth here. Why are you defending her Psy? Can you not see that I simply pointed out how her general mind state is the same that MANY MANY other parents have, and that mind state is was is driving them to have their children locked up. You may be one of those kids who totally forgave their parents, but as much as my mom is wonderful and awesome I will believe until the day I die that we was overreacting to my adolescent behavior. That is the only point I am trying to get across to her and if this Bellavita woman doesnt come back, so what, but what about the other program parents who decide to show up? I think they deserve a dose of reality as well. I know you think its counter productive but it is my STRONG opinion that if these parents don't WAKE THE FUCK UP we will NEVER win against the troubled teen industry.

Perfect example: do you blame the druggie or the drug dealer... You can lock up the drug dealers but if the druggie is still a druggie they will still be driven to find the drugs from another drug dealer. ALL parents I have spoken to weather for or against the program (that they have experience with) will tell me that there is a dire need for these private prisons and that there ARE some good ones out there. Well, unfortunately there are so few that I haven't even heard of ONE and unless we can help these parents realize that they NEED to just raise their kids come hell or high water then we will always have a program to fight because the program will always be in demand.

It makes me sick how sending your kid off to military school or a program or a mental hospital or rehab has become such a "trend" in the last 20 years. The problem is only partially with the program that abuses kids, the blame SHOULD be on the parents who think they don't have to raise their kids and they can just pay to get them out of their lives. I have never said that a parent who wised up and pulled their kid wasn't an appreciated member of this group, I have simply called upon their judgment to send their kid in the first place as an issue that NEEDS to be addressed! If they aren't willing to talk about it than fine, I highly doubt that coming here and insulting the forum members is any more productive than a good debate. I just hope at some point we will have a parent come to fornits, tell their story and listen to our opinions about the fact that it is ILLOGICAL to think that locking a kid up in a private prison is the way to go, and hopefully change their mind state a little bit.

What I don't understand is the discrepancy in your beliefs. You think that addiction is a choice and getting help for that should only be the choice of the addict, however you defend a parent who is perpetually delusional about their child's "problems" as much to say that being "headed down that path" is enough to lock a kid up?... She may have changed her mind about the program, but she HAS NOT changed the root of the reason she decided to imprison her child, and until that belief changes, her son is in danger of being sent off to another private hell, sooner or later. Until these parents start to change their misconceptions about teenagers the programs will always exist and I will always be the one to stand up and challenge the delusional thinking that has for many years resulted in the abuse and utter LIFE FUCKING of our previous, present and forthcoming generations. Even if I am the only one. So Psy you can argue for the sake of each individual parent all you want, you can tell me that I'm wasting my time if that argument is the most valid one you have but really this all comes down to the fact that I believe there is more abuse going on than meets the eye and I am not afraid or guilted into not saying so. Disagree with me all you want, I strongly welcome any intelligent challenges to my theory, but don't tell me not to speak my mind.

Well, she might have a point in blaming the system.

We know that addiction is a disease. It is international recognized in both the DSM and the ICD. So if you have a addiction, the right place to go is a hospital. But we punish it instead.

So a lot of parents find themselves in a position where they are forced to find a solution or see their child being locked up for many years. In some states even young adults drinking alcohol can result in parents themselves being locked up, if the young adult causes injury to others while being drunk.

That's is where the problem is. Because often the system won't help the parent. They are too focused on punishment and seeking justice for possible "victims".

I was just on our own network and Rotsne told me about a thread in another forum for parents.

Situation: The youth are beating his parents up and destroying property.

I feel my choices are to: Call the police and be told, once again, they cannnot do anything. Take him to the hospital: I don't think this is the route -- might not be able to justify a 302. Send him to live elsewhere: Don't think anyone we know would be willing or that that could be the answer(GFG has threatened to commit suicide a number of times and has been hospitalized regarding such attempt one time this past October). Call Children and Youth Services: I would like to know more about this before we contact them. I don't know what the implications would be or if he could be in a "safe and structured environment" where he could be watched constantly.

Any suggestions if the system is just waiting until they can lock people up and the youth can join the 1 out of 100 being locked up in the US?

[FemanonFatal2.0]

It is hard to give good advice to a parent based on a tid bit... but maybe if she were to post here about her son's situation we would be better able to give tailored advice.

My advice will always be to weather the storm, because the teen years ARE hard but are truly only a phase for most. If the kid is truly violent or mentally unstable the best thing a parent can do is get him to see a specialist... someone who may be able to diagnose and recommend a verified treatment plan. If the child is simply acting out, and does not have any significant mental problems then I suggest a healthy dose of some tender love and care. The main reason teens act out is because they feel their parents are mistreating them, so that's when a good talk and some compromises can mend a tense parent/ child relationship. The first thing I say to a parent with a "difficult child" is to stop and think what the parent may be doing to aggravate the situation and after some prodding there are usually some underlying control issues and a method of punishment that has done far more damage to the child's psyche then any lessons learned.

The problems you hear from the parents mouths aren't always the real problems, the problems started most likely years and years before and the teens in their new rebellious stages have just realized they are SICK of it, but don't know how to communicate to their parents about it so they avoid and act out. Sadly as well the parents are not willing to hear parenting critisizm from their kids anyway, and often not a counselor or teacher or anyone else for that matter. Many parents treat their children as a threat to their ego, Ive seen is oh so many times in my old line of work and its plain to see to me, but they are oblivious. What you hear from the parents is,"hes doing drugs, hes out all night or shes having sex, shes drinking and stealing my stuff" but what you do not see is that this teen has been growing up in a home where he is constantly critisized and punished and forced to obey a set of rules that are only set in place to keep up appearances with his parents wealthy friends... and he wants to escape all that. What you didnt hear about is that this mother went snooping through her daughters stuff and read in her journal about her sexual urges and found a beer bottle cap or a drawing of a pot leaf. This would of course lead a parent to FREAK OUT, confront and punish their child which is ironically the reason the child is acting out in the first place. The problem is not the drugs or the drinking or the friends or boyfriends/girlfriends, its the issues that this FAMILY has with each other. There are very few "troubled teens" however there are many troubled families.

Overall it has been my experience that a mediated talk or meeting to get all the family issues on the table has been very successful at translating the attitude and the acting out into communication. Once the parent can realize where the child is coming from and vice versa it sets a stage for those fights to be stopped before they escalate. It also sets some boundries and clears up some misconceptions. If the parent thinks the best way to find out about their child's life is to snoop and pry and then punish when they assume that's the truth, then they are only making the chance that they're child will trust them enough to come to them for advice about their lives that much slimmer. Kids need a little space, unconditional love and some trust, especially teens.

[Anonymous]

It is hard to give good advice to a parent based on a tid bit... but maybe if she were to post here about her son's situation we would be better able to give tailored advice.

My advice will always be to weather the storm, because the teen years ARE hard but are truly only a phase for most. If the kid is truly violent or mentally unstable the best thing a parent can do is get him to see a specialist... someone who may be able to diagnose and recommend a verified treatment plan. If the child is simply acting out, and does not have any significant mental problems then I suggest a healthy dose of some tender love and care. The main reason teens act out is because they feel their parents are mistreating them, so that's when a good talk and some compromises can mend a tense parent/ child relationship. The first thing I say to a parent with a "difficult child" is to stop and think what the parent may be doing to aggravate the situation and after some prodding there are usually some underlying control issues and a method of punishment that has done far more damage to the child's psyche then any lessons learned.

The problems you hear from the parents mouths aren't always the real problems, the problems started most likely years and years before and the teens in their new rebellious stages have just realized they are SICK of it, but don't know how to communicate to their parents about it so they avoid and act out. Sadly as well the parents are not willing to hear parenting critisizm from their kids anyway, and often not a counselor or teacher or anyone else for that matter. Many parents treat their children as a threat to their ego, Ive seen is oh so many times in my old line of work and its plain to see to me, but they are oblivious. What you hear from the parents is,"hes doing drugs, hes out all night or shes having sex, shes drinking and stealing my stuff" but what you do not see is that this teen has been growing up in a home where he is constantly critisized and punished and forced to obey a set of rules that are only set in place to keep up appearances with his parents wealthy friends... and he wants to escape all that. What you didnt hear about is that this mother went snooping through her daughters stuff and read in her journal about her sexual urges and found a beer bottle cap or a drawing of a pot leaf. This would of course lead a parent to FREAK OUT, confront and punish their child which is ironically the reason the child is acting out in the first place. The problem is not the drugs or the drinking or the friends or boyfriends/girlfriends, its the issues that this FAMILY has with each other. There are very few "troubled teens" however there are many troubled families.

Overall it has been my experience that a mediated talk or meeting to get all the family issues on the table has been very successful at translating the attitude and the acting out into communication. Once the parent can realize where the child is coming from and vice versa it sets a stage for those fights to be stopped before they escalate. It also sets some boundries and clears up some misconceptions. If the parent thinks the best way to find out about their child's life is to snoop and pry and then punish when they assume that's the truth, then they are only making the chance that they're child will trust them enough to come to them for advice about their lives that much slimmer. Kids need a little space, unconditional love and some trust, especially teens.

And, don't forget, often the parents of a "troubled teen" are just crazy, abusive people. NO amounts of talks or teen "help" are really going to make a difference in terms of the parents doing a better job because they are just capable of it, and NOTHING short of the kid getting to a safe environment will create an atmosphere where the kid can do much more than survive their adolescance.

[Anonymous]

You may be one of those kids who totally forgave their parents, but as much as my mom is wonderful and awesome I will believe until the day I die that we was overreacting to my adolescent behavior.

I think psy just has a different perspective. When he came to fornits and became admin I noticed one of the first changes was the creation of moderated forums for parents to come and ask question in peace.

I think psy views the decision to send kids to programs differently, because he was 18 when he went to a program. He was in on the decision and signed himself in, unlike under aged program kids. I think because of that, he wants to believe all parents are duped, like he said he was. I think because of his being sent as an adult, and having a say in it, he has more sympathy to the idea of parents being fooled. I also think that is why he posts so much about AA and scientology, both of which are organizations that are voluntary for adults.

[psy]

I think psy just has a different perspective. When he came to fornits and became admin I noticed one of the first changes was the creation of moderated forums for parents to come and ask question in peace.

I think psy views the decision to send kids to programs differently, because he was 18 when he went to a program. He was in on the decision and signed himself in, unlike under aged program kids. I think because of that, he wants to believe all parents are duped, like he said he was. I think because of his being sent as an adult, and having a say in it, he has more sympathy to the idea of parents being fooled. I also think that is why he posts so much about AA and scientology, both of which are organizations that are voluntary for adults.

Need I note that It's more than possible to dupe underage kids into signing into programs.  It's how it happened in Over the GW, and it's how it happened to many other survivors on this site.  Would you say the same to them?

You'd have to a compete idiot to think that programs are honest with anybody about what they do.  I signed up for a "boarding school", not a fucking cult.  I did not sign up or consent to that.  That was not voluntary.  

Read up on informed consent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent

Also, the Facilities Q&A forum was moderated long before I came to this site.  The only moderated forum that has been added since then is the CAN forum, which I don't even moderate and the Melting Pot, which I do moderate, but is off-topic, just like Froderik moderates the "let it bleed" forum.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

I think psy just has a different perspective. When he came to fornits and became admin I noticed one of the first changes was the creation of moderated forums for parents to come and ask question in peace.

I think psy views the decision to send kids to programs differently, because he was 18 when he went to a program. He was in on the decision and signed himself in, unlike under aged program kids. I think because of that, he wants to believe all parents are duped, like he said he was. I think because of his being sent as an adult, and having a say in it, he has more sympathy to the idea of parents being fooled. I also think that is why he posts so much about AA and scientology, both of which are organizations that are voluntary for adults.

Need I note that It's more than possible to dupe underage kids into signing into programs.  It's how it happened in Over the GW, and it's how it happened to many other survivors on this site.  Would you say the same to them?

Well maybe I haven't explained fully that I whole heartedly believe there are exceptions to my theory, as in parents who were truly dealing with an at risk teen and were truly duped by a program. I know they exist, I have met a few and believe that their actions AFTER they were duped prove them to be truly exempt from my general judgment.

I think the same rings true when the situation is that of which a child (or adult in your case Psy) was mislead about the treatment the program offered when they were involved with the decision to enter a program. I almost feel as if this is a completely different situation and the theory doesnt apply at all unless the parents were the ones encouraging him to find a "treatment program" when he didn't need one.

Heres the thing tho, I was never referring to the notion that the parents were aware of the abuse and that is what they intended, but I do believe that they intend to purge their child (origin of their stress) from their lives and are intended to punish their kids by doing so. I'm sure they only think the fact that their kid has to live away from home, friends and the luxuries they are used to as punishment enough, so I can imagine that any normal parent would be shocked to hear what REALLY happens in these programs. However that does not excuse them from the hysteria and bad judgment that lead them to freak out about their teens behavior, enough to send them away. I also think its dumb to assume that the literature on the program website or the phamplets or what the Edcons have told you is absolute truth, unless the parents HAVE visited the facility before sending the kid and did a massive amount of research on the school FIRST I wouldn't be able to grant them with the excuse of being TRULY duped. For those that did, I would extend that pardon, because I know VERY VERY well how far the program goes to cover up their shit, and ANYONE can be fooled by their theatrics at some point. I have only made this point because I think too many parents are skirting the responsibility they should be taking for their own actions in this situation. I think that a decent amount of parents have been brainwashed by the media, and their church and the previous generations before the program ever did a number on them. The program can only pray on the weak minded... The strong willed, sensitive and logical parents are all able to smell the bullshit very quickly. My point is that parents these days are becoming more and more afraid of youth, and make all kinds of ridiculous assumptions that their child will end up dead, insane or in jail... I for one don't think that is a logical fear, however in the instance that a parent actually has a genuine out of control teen, there isn't much a program can do to keep him from that path in life. So the notion that a program can save a child's life is just moot, in my opinion.