Author Topic: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run  (Read 170773 times)

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Offline Inculcated

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #240 on: March 15, 2009, 06:37:35 PM »
I’ll rephrase the question. How does a person who has been subjected to ill-treatment in treatment, find persons who are equipped to deal with such issues? Ursus seems right on it with mention of the “additional damages accrued from self destructive choices” (resulting of the original wound).
How have people in this forum found their way through the destructive influences left in the wake of treatment abuses?
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #241 on: March 15, 2009, 06:46:30 PM »
Quote from: "Inculcated"
How have people in this forum found their way through the destructive influences left in the wake of treatment abuses?

Some have, some haven't.  Figuring out how the program works (and how thought reform works) has been the best healing for me, personally.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #242 on: March 16, 2009, 12:39:53 AM »
The place where I am now, the legitimate, non-coercive Meadow Haven program that I am working my way through,  has been tremendously beneficial toward my learning self-acceptance and in my overall healing process after my experiences in various abusive groups, all of which DAYTOP helped to set me up for.  I am fortunate enough to be in therapy with two of the foremost experts on the thought reform process in this country.  These people specialize in treating victims of overly controlling and abusive groups.  The Pardons (that is Bob and Judy Pardon) saved my life and are helping me to rebuild it, and have been nothing but a tremendous blessing to me.  I have been in Meadow Haven for a little more than six months and just cannot tell you how far I have come.  Meadow Haven and Wellspring, that's it in this country in terms of treatment centers for persons who have exited various cultic situations, whether they took place in a religious, pseudo-therapeutic, political, or other context.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #243 on: March 16, 2009, 08:41:11 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
 I recently ended up on Pathway Family Center's shitlist, incdedentally:

http://www.pathwaytruth.org/critics.html


Way ta go, Psy! You know I must be slackin when I don't even make those lists any more. LOL
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #244 on: March 18, 2009, 02:20:24 PM »
Thank you for your replies.  I’m going to let the sum of my anger x betrayal = vigilance, for now.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #245 on: March 18, 2009, 07:42:14 PM »
Quote from: "Inculcated"
Thank you for your replies.  I’m going to let the sum of my anger x betrayal = vigilance, for now.

You're welcome.  I'd begin by reading Combatting Cult Mind Control, by Steve Hassan.  It'll help you gain a better understanding of the thought reform process and its dynamics.

Then I'd read Mongignor O'Brien's book You Can't Do It Alone if you want to refresh your memory in understanding the DAYTOP mentality and "treatment" philosophy, also if you want to learn about DAYTOP's history, origins, connection to Synanon, etc.  

Next I recommend reading D. Casriel's So Fair a House.  It'll give you an understanding of Charles Dederich and the Synanon program he created.  

A familiarity with and understanding of Synanon is the key to understanding DAYTOP.  DAYTOP is, I'd say, essentially a Synanon clone program, which itself was a Dianetics-derived program.  

Dederich appropriated a lot of ideas and techniques from LRH, and O'Brien appropriated a lot of ideas and techniques in turn from Dederich.

In other words: Dianetics to Synanon to DAYTOP, it's all the same stuff, successively adapted over the years, just tweaked and refined as circumstances demanded.  

DAYTOP is, in the final analysis, a third-generation Dianetics-based cultic pseudotherapy group.

LRH once said that his whole mission in developing Dianetics was to learn how to turn the human soul inside out, or something to that effect.  DAYTOP is part of the fruit of the tree that LRH planted, and it just disgusted and enraged me to discover all of this history and background.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #246 on: March 18, 2009, 08:58:36 PM »
Also, to be fair, I should say that I never have read Dianetics and probably will not do so anytime soon.  I have looked it over, and it seems like chloroform on paper to me.  I am however, a little familiar with LRH's theories with respect to this "science of the mind."  Actually, I really ought to read it someday, though, to help to expand my knowledge and understanding of these matters.  

Psy: did you say that you've read Dianetics, and if so, what did you think?
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #247 on: March 18, 2009, 11:44:07 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
did you say that you've read Dianetics, and if so, what did you think?

Some of it actually makes a fair amount of sense. I can see how people are sucked into Scientology through it.  Problem is although it makes sense and *sounds* true... it's not backed up by science (and contradicted in many cases).

That being said, a lot of what Dianetics teaches flat out contradicts the whole concept of powerlessness, so i'm skeptical as to how much Dederich would have adopted into Synanon.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #248 on: March 19, 2009, 12:40:42 AM »
Hmmm...yes, I ought to read Dianetics.  It looks kind of lame, but who knows?   In any case, it'll be edifying, at least in terms of aiding my understanding of Synanon and DAYTOP, and the connections between all three.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #249 on: April 01, 2009, 03:39:58 PM »
Let's start honestly looking at the Pardons

Bob Pardon to the rescue (continued)

BY CHRIS WRIGHT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Intervention is indeed a tricky and controversial business. The days when cult-busters could ride into town and snatch victims out from under their captors’ noses are long gone. Though forced extraction was widely used the 1970s, a series of crippling lawsuits and mounting ethical concerns have rendered the practice obsolete for the past 20 years. "I used to be involved in that," says Hassan, "but I don’t do abducting any more. It’s so incredibly traumatizing for everyone, including me. I basically don’t do anything illegal any more."

One of the last holdouts of the old-school approach was a New Jersey–based researcher named Rick Ross, who admits to having used coerced-extraction techniques as late as 1994. "I got involved in a lawsuit with the Church of Scientology," he says. "I realized I was going to spend more time with my lawyers than with my work, so I stopped." Today, none of the dozen or so full-time cult researchers in the US uses coercion — or at least none will admit to doing so. "It’s not like the old days where you could literally go and kidnap someone, take them to a motel room, and nail the door shut," says Bob Pardon. "You have to have a much more respectful approach."

These days, the Pardons favor a process called "exit counseling," which entails spending up to a year educating the family of a victim, creating strategies to build trust between the family and group leaders, devising a way to lure the victim away from the group for a few days, then subtly giving that person information about cults that will help him see his own predicament, and thus willingly make his escape. Which isn’t as easy as it may sound.

Generally, interventions are initiated by the families of cult members. For the vast majority of the people actually in cults, leaving is a wrenching, painful affair. "You never have people saying, ‘I’m so glad you came! Let’s get out of here!’" says Bob. "People routinely tell you, ‘I’m happy here. What are you doing?’ The cult has essentially created a cult persona. A layering of cult identity has been established."

In recent years, the process of breaking through those layers has also undergone a major overhaul. Today, few exit counselors ascribe to the once-popular strategy of "deprogramming," in which the survivor has his cult-instilled beliefs drummed out of him, forcibly and mercilessly. At best, goes the conventional wisdom now, this fighting-fire-with-fire approach leaves an individual with a slew of unresolved issues buried just below the surface. At worst, it sends that person back into the arms of the group.

"People have to come to their own conclusions," says Bob. "When you come out of a group, you’ve already had people dictating reality to you. The last thing we want to do is dictate reality for them. So what we do is give them the tools to work through things, to understand things on their own."

"The biggest thing is the issue of trust," adds Judy. "They don’t trust anyone, even themselves. So the first thing we have to do is build bridges, so they’ll trust us enough to start doing this work. It’s incredibly emotional, very draining for them. It’s a long, involved process."

"This isn’t like leaving the Kiwanis or some kind of fraternity or sorority," continues Bob. "You have based the very essence of who you are on this belief system, and you find out now that it is false."

Dismantling a belief system, of course, is no walk in the park. Over the years, the Pardons came to believe that they could work more effectively with some of the more damaged cult survivors if they had full-time access to them. For a while, Judy put people up in her own home. "That," she says, "was very difficult." Last fall, with the help of private donors, the couple opened Meadow Haven, a rambling former nursing home in rural Lakeville, in Southern Massachusetts.

"We’re here to help people put their lives back together," says Bob, "to help them in any way that they need."

Exactly what kind of help a recovering cult member is supposed to get remains somewhat up in the air. The field is, for sure, more an art than a science. "You can’t go to school for it," says Bob. "I can tell you that." Over the years, researchers like Steve Hassan and Robert Jay Lifton have published books outlining what destructive mind-control groups are and suggesting ways to ease people out of them. Still, the cult-member-rehabilitation process remains a nascent, amorphous enterprise, and the Pardons will readily admit to drawing heavily from whatever sources are on hand. "I’m very eclectic," Bob says. "I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel."

The kind of help that has been made available to residents of Meadow Haven so far has been a mix of therapy, religious counseling, exercise, education, rest, and large doses of TLC. "I’ve been overwhelmed with gratitude to Bob and Judy," says Kerry, sitting on a sofa in the center’s large, brightly lit living room. "This whole experience has been so intrusive to my person, to my identity, to my family structure, to my relationships. I lost all my friends. It’s such a devastating point to be at. So to receive unconditional love from people was an incredible experience. They didn’t expect anything from me — they just gave and gave and gave."

but The work that Bob and Judy Pardon do is not without controversy. A few years back, Bob became a central figure in the Attleboro-sect case, in which members Jacques and Karen Robidoux were arrested in connection with the deaths of two children. Along with becoming a constant presence in news stories about the episode, Bob served as an adviser for authorities handling the case, writing up a comprehensive report on the sect, and was even named guardian ad litem — or court-appointed advocate — for the group’s remaining children. Today, Bob routinely consults with police, social-services agencies, and lawyers about cult issues.

Andrew Walsh, a religious historian at Trinity College in Hartford, finds this troubling. "I’m by no means an expert on cults," Walsh says. "I wouldn’t go around saying that what Robert Pardon does is bad for people. But what’s interesting to me is that he got an awful lot of mileage out of being a ‘cult expert’ while not being open about that fact that he is religious himself. His group sounds academic and nonprofit-y, and he presents it that way because if he called it the Anti-Cult Ministry, people wouldn’t call him, judges wouldn’t call him. It seemed to me that he positioned himself as a kind of free agent able to comment objectively about the [Attleboro] case, and journalists just ate that up and gave him oceans of ink without saying who he was."

One journalist who did call into question Bob Pardon’s religious background was the Boston Globe’s Eileen McNamara, who, in February 2002, wrote a scathing column in which she basically accused Pardon of browbeating Attleboro group members into accepting his version of Christianity. To bolster her case, McNamara included excerpts of a letter Pardon had written to member David Corneau. "I can testify to you that your beliefs and practices are not consistent with His Word, nor, more profoundly, with His character," the letter read. "How God must weep over your decisions." Bob, meanwhile, insists that his letter was taken out of context. "She misinterpreted it," he says. "She quoted only parts of it, had it say things I didn’t intend to say."

Even those who count themselves among the Pardons’ supporters, however, admit to having concerns about the couple’s fervent Christianity. "This is a hard one," says the AFF’s Carol Giambavo. "It’s better to have someone who understands the issues around Scripture-twisting, who can help unravel that. But when you help get someone out of a group, very often they’ll transfer their dependency needs onto you. You have to be very careful not to transfer your religious beliefs onto them."

"They are very careful about that," insists Kerry. "They joke about it — ‘This is the Cult of Bob.’ But they definitely didn’t try to take the place [of Tariq’s group]. I became very needy with my mom, much more than with Bob and Judy. They encouraged me to branch out and make friends."

Then there’s the question of who pays for all this. Meadow Haven has an annual operating budget, says Judy Pardon, of about $100,000. Though some of this is offset by gifts from the families of cult members the Pardons have helped (they do not charge for their work), the bulk of Meadow Haven’s funding comes from private donors, many of them Christians who, as Steve Hassan puts it, "maybe have expectations that Bob and Judy are doing more evangelical work than they are."

All the same, Hassan is quick to add that he doesn’t believe the Pardons have a surreptitious religious agenda. "I don’t think they’ve ever tried to tell me I shouldn’t be Jewish," he says, adding, "I think the world of Bob and Judy. They’re genuinely kind people. They’re for real."

No matter what you say about the Pardons, you cannot doubt their commitment. Even their romantic relationship — they married two years ago — seems to have blossomed from the work they do together. At first glance, they are an odd couple. Bob, 51, is a bearded, slightly ruffled, jovial man with a penchant for wearing Stetsons and making wisecracks. Judy, 59, is a slight woman with long, reddish hair, bird-like energy, and a tendency to use the language of self-help. On the issue of their work, however, Bob and Judy speak very much with one voice — sometimes literally.

Bob: "We deal with this all the time ..."

Judy: "People say because we’re Christians ..."

Bob: "We’re jamming our beliefs down people’s throats ..."

Judy: "The spiritual aspect has to be dealt with ..."

Bob: "Has to be dealt with ..."

Judy: "Because that’s what the foundation is on ..."

Bob: "At some point you’re going to have to deal with this ..."

Judy: "But we’re not going to tell people they have to believe what we believe ..."

Bob: "That would be unethical ..."

In any event, it seems clear that Kerry has benefited from her stay at Meadow Haven. "There are times I’ve been extremely angry," she says, "especially remembering the abuse. It makes me infuriated. But it took me a long time to get to that point. For a long time I still had intense feelings of love and adoration for Tariq. I’d like to reach a point where I could forgive him, if only for myself. He’s a sinner just like I’m a sinner. I also did terrible things to people."

Recently, Kerry made contact with her old cult-mates — the people to whom she did those terrible things. "Obviously, it’s very weird," she says. "I’ve apologized, asked for their forgiveness. They even say to me, ‘Kerry, we know it wasn’t you, we know it. You weren’t the one doing this to us.’ So they understand, you know, why. But it’s awful for me to have to face them. I don’t even know how to express my sorrow and my remorse and my guilt and my — just total disgust with myself for doing that."

More will be revealed. :notworthy:
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #250 on: April 07, 2009, 12:54:29 AM »
Scientology to Synanon to DAYTOP.  There is a common denominator, a common influence bewteen all of these groups, that I am in the process of unraveling.  It all seems to have started with the publication of Dianetics, when you start to trace the history thing back.  All roads lead back to Ron, the mad genius.

On the topic of Hubbard/Dederich, Scientology/Synanon connection, here are quotes substantianting a possible link between.  Pay particular attention to the use of the word "game."  Think of the Synanon "game."  I think that Dederich most probably learned a thing or two from Hubbard.  From A Piece of Blue Sky:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... /bs9-2.htm

Thetans are all-knowing beings, and became bored because there were no surprises. Hubbard asserted that the single most important desire in all beings is to have a "game." To have a "game" it was necessary to "not know" certain things, so certain perceptions were negated ("not-is-ed"). More and more perception and knowledge had to be abandoned as time passed, and some Thetans started the "game" of creating traps for other Thetans. Believing it possible to harm others, Thetans learned contrition, and punished themselves for their own "harmful" acts. An ongoing part of this self-imposed punishment is dwindling perception.

One universe ended and another began, and there have been many universes, each more solid and entrapping than the last. An essential part of the game was the "conquest" of matter, energy, space and time by the life force, Theta. In each universe Thetans have become more enmeshed in matter, energy, space and time (MEST), to the point where many have identified themselves totally with it, and consider themselves nothing but MEST. Thetans are by now in a hypnoid state, having forgotten their quadrillions of years of existence and their original godly power, barely capable of even leaving their bodies at will.

Thetans nevertheless have the power of "postulate." Whatever they intend comes into being. Negative decisions and opinions, or "bad postulates," generate a negative destiny. For quadrillenia, Thetans have been "implanting" one another with hypnotic suggestions, and clustering other Thetans together (turning most into "body-Thetans' '). Scientology seeks to undo "other-determinism," and return the Thetan to "self-determinism," and eventually to "pan-determinism" where he acts for the good of all.

Most of these ideas can be found elsewhere. "Before the beginning was a Cause" is highly reminiscent of the central premise of the Tao Teh Ching. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna teaches Arjuna that he is immortal and imperishable, that life is a game, and that in truth no harm can be done to others, as they too are immortal and imperishable. The comparable word for "Thetan" is "atman." The doctrine of reincarnation is common to several major religions. That we reap as we have sown, or karma-vipaka, even more so. The emphasis upon the development of Intention, or the ability to postulate, in Scientology comes straight from Crowley's "thelema" or Will, upon which most magical systems concentrate.

To sum up: Hubbard saw the individual's current state as a fall from grace, but the individual's own grace, not that of God. He saw the Thetan as an all-capable individual, who has gradually restricted his powers, over "quadrillions" of years, in part to have a "game," and in part for fear of hurting others. He called this degeneration the "dwindling spiral." In Scientology counselling, the Preclear is directed back to incidents in his past existences which have shaped his way of thinking (and consequently his current circumstances). A better future is to be obtained by release from quadrillenia of long forgotten conditioning and guilt. Sociologists use the term "neo-gnosticism" to describe such beliefs when they are allied to a supposed system of enlightenment (many of the original Christian gnostic sects spent their time learning the passwords which would give them entry to heaven after death).


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... /bs9-1.htm

Having decided in 1952 that most science fiction is actually a recounting of real past-life experience, Hubbard's own preoccupations as a science fiction writer became the cosmology of his religion. He was an egomaniac who generated an egomaniacal philosophy, which had at its core the belief that whatever happens to others is their own fault. Whatever happened to L. Ron Hubbard was the fault of a great Conspiracy. He advocated personal responsibility to his followers, but almost uniformly failed to practice what he preached.

Lately I have been reading this biography of LRH called A Piece of Blue Sky, studying the life of LRH and the dissemination of his ideas.  I find it to be quite remarkable.  

In the recent past, I as well read So Fair a House, and find CED to be quite a remarkable individual.  But LRH, he was the Donald Trump of cult leaders.  Incredible.

I can certainly see certain parallels between LRH and CED philosophy, and how CED could have been influenced by Dianetics-inspired thinking, and even certain Scientology principles.  Insofar as both are anti-psychiatry, and both claim to be an extension of Freudian psychotherapy.  In both systems, (Dianetics and the Synanon method) the basic idea is that by re-experiencing unconfronted traumas it is supposedly possible to unravel and eventually resolve deep-seated neuroses.  LRH in this respect appears to be a progenator of the "attack therpy" that Casriel and the rest later continued in a different context (ironically enough, as a form of psychotherapy!)

Both systems depart from Freudian thinking in that they both deny that sexual repressions are basic to psychological aberration.  Both LRH and CED promised a new and improved mental state through the application of Dianetics/Synanon.  

Both LRH and CED were apparently obsessed with the idea of abortion.  I see many similarities.  LRH was a tall-tale teller, plagarist, and pathological liar.  So was CED.

Sure, there are many obvious differences too; CED didn't come up with some system paralleling LRH's Reactive/Analytical/Somatic division of the human mind, for staters.

Will keep studying it out.  What are your thoughts, fornits denizens?
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #251 on: May 05, 2009, 09:12:01 PM »
Question for Sekto:
‘Been a while. ‘Still reading?
I hesitate to ask this. I’d hate to cause you a flash, but were you ever subjected to Marcy singing that song she wrote about that f*ing bag of love? She’d plunk away on her guitar and yodel it out in morning meetings …and well, just about any other opportunity she had to subject her captive audience to it.
I felt compelled by some commiserating urge to ask you.  In the song she “sang” of herself “sitting upon this window sill …“.  I used to imagine her leaning too far and falling through it. Then we’d have been spared the bruised fruit of her inspiration by her having fallen before ever jotting down her lyrics.
I hate that that song is still in my head. Granted, there are also commercial jingles in there from ages ago, but none so chilling as Marcy's creative process.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #252 on: May 05, 2009, 11:59:55 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
Both LRH and CED were apparently obsessed with the idea of abortion. I see many similarities. LRH was a tall-tale teller, plagarist, and pathological liar. So was CED.

They all are!! Add to that list: megalomania and narcissism! Lately, I've been reading about Paul Twitchell of Eckankar (who also delved into Scientology at one point). Good Lord, I never knew... Plagiarism, in particular, seems to be de riguer for these harbingers of new "truths," lololol. They all steal from each other.

Quote from: "SEKTO"
Sure, there are many obvious differences too; CED didn't come up with some system paralleling LRH's Reactive/Analytical/Somatic division of the human mind, for staters.

Chuckie did not exactly have a "contemplative turn of mind," if ya get my drift!  :D
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #253 on: May 07, 2009, 05:41:48 PM »
Quote from: "Inculcated"
Question for Sekto:
‘Been a while. ‘Still reading?
I hesitate to ask this. I’d hate to cause you a flash, but were you ever subjected to Marcy singing that song she wrote about that f*ing bag of love? She’d plunk away on her guitar and yodel it out in morning meetings …and well, just about any other opportunity she had to subject her captive audience to it.
I felt compelled by some commiserating urge to ask you.  In the song she “sang” of herself “sitting upon this window sill …“.  I used to imagine her leaning too far and falling through it. Then we’d have been spared the bruised fruit of her inspiration by her having fallen before ever jotting down her lyrics.
I hate that that song is still in my head. Granted, there are also commercial jingles in there from ages ago, but none so chilling as Marcy's creative process.

Hey there friend.  Yes, I still check in here to look for new posts.

Thinking about the old days in DAYTOP is not particularly triggering to me anymore, as I have processed the experience thorougly, and well realize what was going on and what happened to me (us) there.  I do not at all mind your asking about my recollections.  

Basically and simply put, it was just one long process of coercion there, and the residual psychological effects lasted well into my adult life.  Once I opened up that door in my mind, a metaphorical door that had been nailed shut for all of those years, a whole lot of old baggage got unpacked and reorganized relatively quickly.  

The only song I specifically remember Marcy singing in Morning Meeting was "Is This America?", which was this downbeat acoustic lesbo-folk number.  I don't remember the tune, or any of the words.  She had more songs in her repertoire, which I can very vaguely recall, but America? is the only one I know by name.

Yeah, I remember now how she sang while playing her guitar, sitting in a chair in front of that big window in the room in the back of the building, the one where we had Morning Meeting. You could look out of that window and see the pool behind her as she sang.

More later.  I need to cook dinner.  It's good to be back!
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #254 on: May 09, 2009, 05:42:27 AM »
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Basically and simply put, it was just one long process of coercion there, and the residual psychological effects lasted well into my adult life. Once I opened up that door in my mind, a metaphorical door that had been nailed shut for all of those years, a whole lot of old baggage got unpacked and reorganized relatively quickly.

Yeah, I remember now how she sang while playing her guitar, sitting in a chair in front of that big window in the room in the back of the building, the one where we had Morning Meeting. You could look out of that window and see the pool behind her as she sang.

   Laughs. My baggage is currently being handled by a parade of porters, bellhops, and pall bearers. It gets rifled through sometimes and has all too often been checked for contraband (by those who helped pack the trunks). Essentially, this means I’m simply glad to occasionally organize a thought.
                Same staff different buildings. I was there when the “family” had just carpet bagged their way to Texas. We typically had morning meeting on the racket ball courts (no windows) Marcy’s window was in her song. Still, reverie is a way out of anywhere and I think she might’ve benefited from a fall.
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“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis