Author Topic: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run  (Read 154926 times)

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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #195 on: February 28, 2009, 05:26:43 PM »
Quote from: "Inculcated"
Your words brought tears to my eyes. I am not one who often cries. I am currently in 2x weekly sessions with a Psychologist who inadvertantly triggered a cascade of memories and rage in me...by simply using vernacular I remember from Daytop. He had at some point worked within a similar program. I made my disgust about that known.
       I was one of the first 7 "family members" of DayTop Richardson TX. In that "common ground", I was trained and encouraged to be hostile and confrontational. My recollection of encounter groups are as of being a prized conteder in the verbally abusive equivalent of a cock fighting ring. I was a 13 yr. old girl.   I know that I quickly assimilated in to a scary little bitch who would "drop slips" on even counselors (Yes, even Marcy. I wonder if the Marcia written of had a scar on her right cheek. Same cheeky bitch?). I was searching for that "refuge" we all intoned about together, each morning meeting. I became trained to cut my peers to the quick and was rewarded with promotions for adapting so well. I am sorry to all who have ever encountered me in an encounter group or "hair cut" (more like a scalping). My experience of that place would have been far less damaging if someone any one of them had allowed me to be a kid or at least reminded me that I was.
     I was 14 when I was sent "upstate" to NewYork for residential treatment, after the police found me stoned at a male counselor's apartment. Granted, he held only a marginal role of being an "atheletics counselor" and was of course to the "others"(promoted from within) an outsider. No charges were filed against the "counselor" for having provided me with drugs or for harboring a runaway. One officer did ask if "anything had happened". I answered truthfully, "no". While sexual contact had not occured by the time of my being "located there", it had seemed to me inevitable. By that I mean unavoidable, as choice was not a consideration in that role. Following this, I was treated to my 15TH birthday in Millbrook, NY. In the RTC environment I was "that one" the girl with the dubious distinction of being the problem child that had been swept their way. I am aware that that which made me vulnerable to that particular pervert pre-dated my arrival at DayTop. That did not make the hypocracy of having been sent to RTC, and harshly discouraged from speaking honestly of the circumstances that brought me to RTC any less harmful. I became sucidol while in NY.
     I'm startled by how vivid my anger for these thing is.

Yes, now I know that you are for real, Inculcated.  

Marcy indeed has a scar on one of her cheeks, I cannot recall which.  

Like Gorman and his teardrop tattoo: it was under one of his eyes, but I likewise I cannot recall which.

How did you find this board?  

We might remember one another?  

Do we have mutual friends?

Do remember a guy named Henry H.?  A Cole H.?  Bobby H.?  A girl named Renee H.?  

They were some of the first, from what I remember.  What a coincidence, that their last names all start with an H.  Odd.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #196 on: February 28, 2009, 06:19:32 PM »
Also, I recall that the kid who came back from NY (I think he was at Millbrook too) and told me of DAYTOP's supposed mob connections was a goofy redheaded guy John HOPKINS, if memory serves.  Whoa! Another H.

A coorection: my bad.  There was a Henry C., not a Henry H.  

But a Cole H. Renee H. and a Bobby H. also Bobby's brother was there for a while; his name was Chris H.  Their cousin too, Jeremy H.

Also John HOPKINS, the redheaded guy who was in Millbrook.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #197 on: March 04, 2009, 02:34:20 PM »
Today I come writing with a story to tell all of you, a story about The Man Who Thought That He Was Dead.

This man firmly believed he was dead, even though he was a living, normally–functioning human being. Well, his wife persuaded him to visit a psychiatrist, who tried in vain to convince him that he was in fact alive. Who wants to be married to a dead guy?  The wife argued.  

The psychiatrist hit upon a plan.   In order to help this poor soul, the psychiatrist realized that he had to introduce the man to one fact that would contradict the belief that he held, that belief being that he was dead.  The psychiatrist decided to prove to the man that dead men do not bleed.

So he showed the man medical reports and scientific evidence that dead men do not bleed.  He took the man to a hospital and they witnessed an operation together, so that the man could see that living people bleed when cut.  Next they went to the country morgue, and the man witnessed an autopsy, seeing that the corpse did not shed blood when incised.  

After thoroughly convincing the man that dead men do not bleed, the psychiatrist took out a pin and pricked the man’s finger.

When the man saw the drop of blood trickle down his finger, his eyes bugged out. "Ha!" he cried, "Dead men do bleed after all!"


My point is, that Magnificent and Honesty and the rest of the DAYTOP apologists will not believe anything I say if it is critical of the beloved program, regardless.

The truth of what we went through in DAYTOP Dallas in the early '90s doesn't matter to them.  It's critical of the program, therefore I am not allowed to say it.

In a cult, abusive organization, or abusive relationship it does not matter if the information presented is true. If it is negative about the group or any member of the group, then you cannot say it. Usually such negative information will be will be labeled as slander, and if one persists in speaking it or writing it one can be disciplined severely, ultimately with expulsion from the group, or, if one is an outsider speaking ill about or being at all critical of the group, one can be demonized, dehumanized, poked fun at, humiliated, or what have you.

For saying what I have said, I have been called a failure, a phony, a liar, a person in need of help, all that.

Therefore, it's truly a waste of time IMO to bother with trying to have a rational, objective, mature discussion with any of the DAYTOPians.

They simply cannot be reasoned with.

All they'll do is twist whatever I communicate back onto me and try and make it into some personal attack.  They'll give me a forum haircut.  When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

There's nothing that anybody can say, some magic phrase, that will make their critical thinking skills turn on with respect to what I have brought to the table and concede that I might have a point.  They'll just invalidate everything I've said and dismiss it all as "complete fabrication."  

They'll invalidate everything I say as pure lies and slander no matter what evidence I bring.

It's no fabrication.  I know what I know.  I was there.  They were not.  Simple as that.

Their confirmation bias is too strong. Therefore, any attempt at dialog is futile IMO. DAYTOP in their minds is incapable of being wrong or incorrect, about anything, ever.

Trying to get through to them with logic and reason is like banging your head into a wall over and over again. After a while, it becomes painful.

To put a finer point on what I am trying to say, it's as if I am writing to the waking dead.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 03:11:18 PM by SEKTO »

Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #198 on: March 04, 2009, 03:09:26 PM »
cool story.  I liked your example with the coins earlier too(if that was you... or maybe i'm thinking of somebody else)
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #199 on: March 04, 2009, 03:12:46 PM »
Do you mean the one about the coin trick that one eventually starts playing on oneself?  I'll post it later, when I have more time.
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #200 on: March 04, 2009, 03:14:58 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
There's nothing that anybody can say, some magic phrase, that will make their critical thinking skills turn on with respect to what I have brought to the table and concede that I might have a point.

This is not true.  I've seen it happen (on this site too).  It just takes time, sharing the right information, and especially asking the right questions.

I've also talked scientologists into reading Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" (granted I agreed to read dianetics in return.. which was blah).  It just takes time.  People snap out of brainwashing without a support structure of some type / some similar group.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
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"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #201 on: March 04, 2009, 03:19:29 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
Do you mean the one about the coin trick that one eventually starts playing on oneself?  I'll post it later, when I have more time.
The one I was referring to was the one with the three coins where the counselor shows people how cult cons are pulled.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #202 on: March 04, 2009, 05:45:39 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "SEKTO"
There's nothing that anybody can say, some magic phrase, that will make their critical thinking skills turn on with respect to what I have brought to the table and concede that I might have a point.

This is not true.  I've seen it happen (on this site too).  It just takes time, sharing the right information, and especially asking the right questions.

I've also talked scientologists into reading Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" (granted I agreed to read dianetics in return.. which was blah).  It just takes time.  People snap out of brainwashing without a support structure of some type / some similar group.

You have a good point psy, but still I do not altogether agree.  Sometimes members of cultic groups are just too far gone, have passed the psychological point of no return, and will not leave the group (or abandon the group mindset) no matter what happens.  Sometimes the are just too personally invested in the group and have too much of an interest in believing in the group and its mission to just simply walk away.

I do not doubt that in the individual DAYTOPians' hearts, they are (or at least believe that they are) truly dedicated to DAYTOP and the Monsignor's teachings.

But at the same time, also in their hearts they wish that they could be superior to the rest of us.

They want to believe that they know something that we do not know, that they see something that we do not see, that they have figured out something that we have not apprehended.

And they are for the most trapped in this kind of self-reinforcing delusion.

They for the most part are unwilling or unable to admit to themselves, or to anybody else, that they could be wrong and possibly could have been misled by DAYTOP.

Better IMO to undermine their potential success in damaging more kids than to try and get those who are in, out.

Personally, I have dealt with a number of cults and cult members and I swear, sometimes I think that these members would still believe in the group and it's leader no matter what evidence you provided them with to try and show them that the group is a fraud.  Mormons and their devotion to Joseph Smith and the LDS Church are the first example that come to mind.  You could put evidence, absolute proof that Joseph Smith was a fraud right before their eyes and they'd still hold to Mormonism as their religion.  You could show them the proof that the Book of Abraham was not really translated from Abraham's writings "written by his own hand upon papyrus" and you could show them the proof that the BOM was plagiarized from a book by one Soloman Spaulding and they'd still believe in Mormonism.  

Why?  Because of the psychological principle of confirmation bias.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I could give the DAYTOPians absolute irrefutable proof of what happened to my friends and me back then and they still would not believe me.  Because if I am right and telling the truth (and I am) and they were obliged to acknowledge it, then it;d mean that DAYTOP has been abusing people for the past forty years and they'd not be too keen on admitting it.

I guess that my experience with DAYTOP may have somehow "strengthened" me in some sense, although I must say that I've come to now hold somewhat of an attitude of fatalism.  One must be bitten by the radioactive spider before one's Spidey Sense kicks in, if you take my meaning.  The "long-termers" in DAYTOP are largely "sold out" altogether and have abandoned any need to reference themselves to anything other that what the organization assures them of.

Confirmation Bias is also known as Tolstoy Syndrome.  A couple of quote by Leo Tolstoy:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life".

A related Tolstoy quote is:

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:53:34 PM by SEKTO »

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #203 on: March 04, 2009, 05:48:22 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "SEKTO"
Do you mean the one about the coin trick that one eventually starts playing on oneself?  I'll post it later, when I have more time.
The one I was referring to was the one with the three coins where the counselor shows people how cult cons are pulled.

Is this it?

http://www.piney.com/sky1.html

Mind Manipulation

A Psychological Coin Trick In my work at Wellspring in helping victims of cults and spiritual abuse understand what happened to them I often demonstrate a simple coin trick. I place three coins on a table and keep a fourth in one hand. Let's say the coins on the table are a quarter, a nickel, and a penny, and the one in my hand is also a penny. I don't tell the person what coin I have in my hand; rather, I say, "I can read your mind, and I have already predicted what you are about to do. The coin in my hand will prove to you that this is so. Now, what I want you to do is to pick up any two of the coins on the table." Let's say he picks up the quarter and the nickel, leaving the penny on the table. As I show him the penny in my hand I say, "Was there any way I could have known you would leave the penny on the table?" The answer, of course, is "No," and he begins to believe that maybe I do have ESP. But then I tell him to pick up a different combination of coins. So he picks up the quarter and the penny, leaving the nickel on the table. Now I say, "Give me either one of the coins you just picked up." Let's say he gives me the penny. Then I say to him as I again show him the penny in my hand, "Ah, ha! Was there any way I could have known you would give me the penny?" Again, the answer is "No." But by now he's beginning to see what I'm doing. Finally, I tell him that there is only one other possible outcome of the trick. Instead of leaving the penny on the table, or picking it up with another coin and then giving it me, he could have picked it up but then kept it while giving me the other coin. I explain that in that case I would have shown him the penny in my hand and said, "Ah, ha! Was there any way I could have known you would keep the penny?" Now he understands that all I'm doing is interpreting what he does after he does it. I don't say at the start that the coin in my hand will be the same as the coin he leaves or gives me or keeps. I wait till he makes his move and then I only interpret what he does afterwa seem like I have psychic powers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #204 on: March 04, 2009, 08:16:47 PM »
A person I was in treatment with in NY told me about this web site so I thought I'd take a look around & I landed on this discussion.  Man it sounds like your experience was horrible and you are still dealing with it.  I am sorry for your pain.  Your experience is unfortunate.  With that said, is it a good idea to say "so-and-so told me they were told that?"  That is how rumors get started and perpetuated.  You could be unknowingly perpetuating false information about the living and the dead.  Just sharing my thoughts.  Good luck in your road to resolution.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #205 on: March 04, 2009, 08:41:06 PM »
Quote from: "care"
A person I was in treatment with in NY told me about this web site so I thought I'd take a look around & I landed on this discussion........................

Naw.....you're not really gonna try and pull that off, are you?

 
Quote
Man it sounds like your experience was horrible and you are still dealing with it.  I am sorry for your pain.  Your experience is unfortunate.  With that said, is it a good idea to say "so-and-so told me they were told that?" ]/quote]

Which part are you disputing?  I'd be glad to discuss it with you.


Quote
That is how rumors get started and perpetuated.  You could be unknowingly perpetuating false information about the living and the dead.  Just sharing my thoughts.  Good luck in your road to resolution.

Agreed, which is why it's important to cite what you're speaking of.  How can I address your assertions?  What, specifically, do you find to be untrue?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #206 on: March 04, 2009, 08:43:55 PM »
OK....I've tried to edit it but it won't let me..... I asked......   Which part are you disputing? I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

in that post.  The edit wouldn't take.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #207 on: March 04, 2009, 08:59:38 PM »
Thanks friend.  It was rough, all right.  That's nothing to subject a bunch of teenage kids to.  

All of what I wrote is true and accurate to the best of my recollection, my sources are some of my best friends and I trust them implicitly.  This stuff I've written  is not gossip; it's fact.  I was there.  Billy was there.  Inculcated was there.

I have not thought much about those days for the last 15 years or so; up until right after last Thanksgiving, I had not "unpacked" some of those memories for a long time.  

DAYTOP has had an enormous influence on my life and thinking, and for me the experience was pretty much nothing but damaging.

I do not doubt that DAYTOP has helped some people; there are those out there who benefited greatly from their experience with DAYTOP, I am sure.  

It's just that I did not belong there, and neither did Mike Gomez, in all likelihood.

I have Asperger's and Mike had FASD.  We did not belong there.  We were non-neurotypical kids.  

To DAYTOP it didn't matter.  All DAYTOP saw was a couple of incipient dope fiends.  No compassion whatsoever.  

And I'm angry about it, yeah, sad too.  DAYTOP screwed my life up.  And it's not my fault.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #208 on: March 06, 2009, 11:04:37 AM »
"All of what I wrote is true and accurate to the best of my recollection, my sources are some of my best friends and I trust them implicitly. This stuff I've written is not gossip; it's fact. I was there. Billy was there. Inculcated was there"

What a crock of Shit. How dare you continue to blame others for your life problems. If you want to balme someone blame yourself.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #209 on: March 06, 2009, 11:41:23 AM »
Quote from: "Honesty"
"All of what I wrote is true and accurate to the best of my recollection, my sources are some of my best friends and I trust them implicitly. This stuff I've written is not gossip; it's fact. I was there. Billy was there. Inculcated was there"

What a crock of Shit. How dare you continue to blame others for your life problems. If you want to balme someone blame yourself.


FUCK. YOU.[/color][/size]

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And learn how to use the quote feature.
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