Author Topic: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness  (Read 5452 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2008, 02:33:46 PM »
Read Dp's post and then my initial response.  That may clear it up for you.  sorry this upset you so much.


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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2008, 02:47:25 PM »
Quote from: "thewho...."
Read Dp's post and then my initial response.

Done and done.  And....??

 
Quote
That may clear it up for you.

It's very clear that you're a liar.


Quote
 sorry this upset you so much.


You just can't seem to help yourself, can you?  You may want to see someone about that narcissistic streak in you.  It runs strong.  And is usually covering up for a very strong sense of inadequacy.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2008, 02:56:44 PM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
Parents should consult their pediatrician and never just trust anyone on the internet to make their final decision.
...

I would consult your child’s doctor first.  He is a professional and knows your child better than any of us do.

Where do you think programs advertise? On the internet. I'm pleased to see you advise parents to not trust these program salesmen who market online and prey on the fear of desperate parents, and rather listen to the professional medical opinion of their family doctor.

Quote from: "TheWho"

Yes, I think this drives home my point that the readers need to consult their doctor or talk to the programs directly


Woops! I spoke too soon, it appears you have now completely changed your advice. Now you tell parents you can trust some random person you find online, as long as it's a program representative [salesperson] with a financial interest in seeing your child enrolled.

Tell us TheWho, why the change of opinion?

Programs offer to send escorts to pick up a depressed, "mild" bipolar, drug addicted child and forcibly enroll them in a wilderness program. Why should parents trust  non-degreed, non-medical program sales people over the advice of
Timothy A. Rogge, MD
David Zieve, MD

Quote
Many "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.

If you are considering an inpatient program, be sure to check it out thoroughly. Serious injuries and deaths have been associated with some programs. They are not regulated in many states.

or
Benjamin W. Van Voorhees, MD

Quote
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."

These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.

or the American Psychiatric Association
Quote
"We tried this type of confrontation route and very strict discipline and found it simply doesn't work," said Levounis, director of the Addiction Institute of New York and chief of the Division of Addiction Psychiatry at St. Luke's and Roosevelt Hospitals. "It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."

The report's findings that many programs have dangerous conditions and "tremendous side effects" are additional reasons for keeping children with co-occurring mental disorders away from such treatment approaches, he said.


Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.

Tell us, what gives the non degreed, non professional, non medical program salesmen who answer the phone and emails of desperate parents more credibility than these sources?
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Offline Anonymous

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Just question to the article
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2008, 03:11:29 PM »
While the article meant that the category for wilderness programs in Utah was expanded, I have a questions for one of the articles in Salt Lake tribune: Five teens have died in programs since 1990.

How did they bring some of the dead kids back to life?

A year ago the same newspaper wrote 8 deaths. Also a year ago the same newspaper wrote how a teenager held a necktie party at Aspen Achievement Academy. A boy who was sent there due to depression after his brothers death died out there.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2008, 04:32:02 PM »
Quote from: "Giest"
Where do you think programs advertise? On the internet. I'm pleased to see you advise parents to not trust these program salesmen who market online and prey on the fear of desperate parents, and rather listen to the professional medical opinion of their family doctor.

Well, the internet is great for gather information on subjects but when it comes to medical advice I would just be a little careful.  Check your sources, gather knowledge from several different sites so that you will be armed with questions when you finally speak to your doctor.

Quote
Woops! I spoke too soon, it appears you have now completely changed your advice. Now you tell parents you can trust some random person you find online, as long as it's a program representative [salesperson] with a financial interest in seeing your child enrolled.

I believe I have been fairly consistent on my feelings on this subject.  In addition to what I wrote above I would suggest calling the program directly or visiting them.  They can provide you with more detail and answer your specific questions.  You may also ask to speak with a parent who has had a child thru the program.

Quote
Programs offer to send escorts to pick up a depressed, "mild" bipolar, drug addicted child and forcibly enroll them in a wilderness program. Why should parents trust non-degreed, non-medical program sales people

I haven’t heard of programs sending escorts to pick up kids.  I believe it is up to the parents to get the child to the school.  

Quote
Tell us, what gives the non degreed, non professional, non medical program salesmen who answer the phone and emails of desperate parents more credibility than these sources?

I don’t think many parents would send their child away to a school based on a person who answers the phone.  This is typically the first screening and can answer general questions, set up appointment etc.
Look at it like calling the doctors office...first screening from a person answering the phone.. then maybe you are referred to a nurse...then maybe the nurse may have you speak to a doctor... then maybe a specialist etc.



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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2008, 05:10:12 PM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
I believe I have been fairly consistent on my feelings on this subject.  

No, you haven't. Anybody who reads this thread learns this, by this point in the discussion.

Quote
I haven’t heard of programs sending escorts to pick up kids.  I believe it is up to the parents to get the child to the school.  

Most programs offer the parents access to their preferred escort service, and will usually set it up for them. I know you don't know much about programs, so I will forgive your ignorance.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2008, 05:23:36 PM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
I believe I have been fairly consistent on my feelings on this subject.  


Now I KNOW there's been a total and complete disconnect with reality.

Quote
I haven’t heard of programs sending escorts to pick up kids.  I believe it is up to the parents to get the child to the school.  

Quote
Tell us, what gives the non degreed, non professional, non medical program salesmen who answer the phone and emails of desperate parents more credibility than these sources?

Now I KNOW there's been a total and complete disconnect with reality.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2008, 05:55:14 PM »
First you said:

Quote
Programs offer to send escorts to pick up a depressed, "mild" bipolar, drug addicted child and forcibly enroll them in a wilderness program.

After I corrected you then you back peddled to:

Quote
Most programs offer the parents access to their preferred escort service, and will usually set it up for them.......

The reality is that most of the better TBS’s are not even accepting kids via escorts and very few would ever offer an escort service.  As parents call for information about the specific programs they will be able to get the truth.  Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.



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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2008, 06:06:40 PM »
TheWho, stick around and read up more on programs.

I've been on fornits since the beginning and have lived through half a dozen programs, so I know more than you. My parents also follow fornits and choose not to post, but they told me they used to be ignorant just like you [so I know where you are coming from], until they took the time to open their mind, and learn more from the people who were there [kids and former staff].

There is a lot of useful information here on fornits. You can learn a lot by just reading old threads. I've known many parents like you who have fallen fallen victim to myths perpetuated by programs, but the reality is much different.

I've lived it and know what I'm talking about, and there are many like me who choose to share their real life experience, I would suggest you learn from these posts and enlarge your understanding of how programs work.

It's been an interesting discussion, I think everyone involved would agree with that.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2008, 06:16:11 PM »
Who, do you condone escort services like those that are employed by Aspen Education?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2008, 06:20:39 PM »
Quote from: "Giest"
TheWho, stick around and read up more on programs.

I've been on fornits since the beginning and have lived through half a dozen programs, so I know more than you. My parents also follow fornits and choose not to post, but they told me they used to be ignorant just like you [so I know where you are coming from], until they took the time to open their mind, and learn more from the people who were there [kids and former staff].

There is a lot of useful information here on fornits. You can learn a lot by just reading old threads. I've known many parents like you who have fallen fallen victim to myths perpetuated by programs, but the reality is much different.

I've lived it and know what I'm talking about, and there are many like me who choose to share their real life experience, I would suggest you learn from these posts and enlarge your understanding of how programs work.

It's been an interesting discussion, I think everyone involved would agree with that.



Giest,

You've made some mighty impressive points, but alas..................they are lost on Who.  He is so dug into the Kool Aid in order to appease his guilt over his daughter that he cannot see the forest for the trees.    

He HAS to buy into what he's saying (what the program taught him).............otherwise, all that his daughter suffered was in vain and he cannot bring himself to believe that.   It's an incredibly familiar and very sad story.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2008, 06:24:53 PM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
 Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.



Oh, and do your posts carry more weight because you have the fake moniker, "The Who" attached to them???  How are you any different from anyone else that is posing a relevant question?


Wait...............I just answered my own question.  Your inquiries are RARELY relevant and more often completely misleading.

Never mind!  :D
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2008, 06:33:57 PM »
Quote from: "iudn an"


Giest,

You've made some mighty impressive points, but alas..................they are lost on Who.  He is so dug into the Kool Aid in order to appease his guilt over his daughter that he cannot see the forest for the trees.    

He HAS to buy into what he's saying (what the program taught him).............otherwise, all that his daughter suffered was in vain and he cannot bring himself to believe that.   It's an incredibly familiar and very sad story.

I agree with you. I usually ignore TheWho, because it's obvious to anyone who has been here for a time that he is not interested in an honest discussion.

 However, his assertion that wilderness programs are effective in treating bipolar is blatantly, and provably false, as demonstrated earlier in this thread. Some statements are so absurd, it's hard to let them slide.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2008, 06:37:48 PM »
Quote from: "Giest"
TheWho, stick around and read up more on programs.

I've been on fornits since the beginning and have lived through half a dozen programs, so I know more than you. My parents also follow fornits and choose not to post, but they told me they used to be ignorant just like you [so I know where you are coming from], until they took the time to open their mind, and learn more from the people who were there [kids and former staff].

There is a lot of useful information here on fornits. You can learn a lot by just reading old threads. I've known many parents like you who have fallen fallen victim to myths perpetuated by programs, but the reality is much different.

I've lived it and know what I'm talking about, and there are many like me who choose to share their real life experience, I would suggest you learn from these posts and enlarge your understanding of how programs work.

It's been an interesting discussion, I think everyone involved would agree with that.

Thank you for that closing.  I do intend to continue to learn/read more about programs and the industry.  The frustrating part is watching people standing still and close their minds to learning, especially those who view the world from the 1970’s.  There have been so many changes occurring and hopefully much more to come.  The last thing we want to do is lose sight of what is important and that is getting the children the help they need and reducing the chances of them getting lost in the shuffle, ignored or abused.

My biggest peeve is that there are many posters here who are not interested in the kids or anyone besides themselves and their personal stories and are here to dump anger, disrupt the forum and side track any presentation of new ideas and viewpoints.

Tell your parents, “hey!”


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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2008, 06:42:17 PM »
Quote from: "Login???????????"
Quote from: "TheWho"
 Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.



Oh, and do your posts carry more weight because you have the fake moniker, "The Who" attached to them???  How are you any different from anyone else that is posing a relevant question?


Wait...............I just answered my own question.  Your inquiries are RARELY relevant and more often completely misleading.

Never mind!  :D

This is his standard M.O., name calling to get a rise. Sticks and stones...  ;D
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