Smoke and Mirrors

[ZenAgent]

One of many problems PV has that the FTC should look into.  Deceptive, fraudulent, shenanigans.  Next we'll look at the new PV program director Bob Pegler's qualifications.  I heard Pegler threw some stooge out of the private PV Parents Forum for asking about Bob's questionable academic claims.  You simply DO NOT QUESTION THE PROGRAM, OR THE DIRECTOR OF THE PROGRAM!  The PV Parents Forum has got to be full of people like Ned Flanders - "My boy got the booty juice again, yep -per-ooni".  If you're paying $100,000 a year, you avoid thoughts like "these PV clowns are clueless hillbilly quacks", and "I've pissed away $100k in exchange for my kid's undying hatred", or "Mother of God, so this is deviant peer influence - the kid went to PV for depression and came out a homicidal rapist meth cooker".  Golly gee willickers.

It's really good of the FTC to show an interest, but licenses, certifications and accreditations don't mean a program isn't abysmal.  PV has all the bells and whistles - JCAHO, SACS, TN state licensure, and it's still a backwater hellhole with good PR.

From the WATE-TV forum on mental health:

PV Parent

The FTC has posted a list of questions to ask before making a placement:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consume ... pro27.shtm

Peninsula Village does have accreditation and licensure, but the JCAHO certification is a result of PV being a "satellite" of Parkwest.  Number eleven is an interesting question for Peninsula Village:

"How do you define success? What is your success rate? How is it measured?"

WATE-TV has referred to the "amazing success" rate of PV, but what determines that success? 

PV cites an "outcome study" done in 2004.  From the PV Parents Introduction:

"The last outcome study used a 3-year database of Village alumni.  It was found that 91% of the program graduates are either currently in high school, graduated from high school and are taking college courses, or have completed their GED.  Sixty-nine percent of the adolescents admitted due to drug or alcohol addiction are abstaining from drugs and alcohol.  This data also suggested a strong link between length of stay and success post discharge.  100% of the adolescents who stayed at the Village twelve months or longer are currently in school and have not returned to inpatient treatment, are sober and attending twelve step meetings"

That sounds impressive until you analyze the database PV used for this "outcome study".  First, "program graduates" excludes all the kids who were unsuccessful in treatment, or were forced to leave when financial resources ran dry.  Limiting participants to "alumni" greatly reduces the accuracy of this study.

Next, you have to consider the database of the study.  It was based on a mail-in survey.  From PV:  "The survey was mailed to 125 Peninsula Village students' families whose young person had been discharged from the program fro a minimum of six months and a maximum of thirty-six months. Forty-one participants or 33% of the surveys were returned completed"

Only forty-one of the surveys were returned out of 125 - 67% of those contacted would not respond.  Considering the limited participants selected and the minimal input received, I don't see how PV can boast of "success".  What has been seen on forums where former PV patients post their stories is a high rate of relapse into addiction on returning home.  One high-profile patient familiar to WATE-TV viewers relapsed shortly after release from Peninsula Village.

Parents beware - the "outcome study" showing PV's "success" is a joke, meant to play on desperate parents who aren't going to take the time to look closely at the database used.  For a more concise list of questions to ask about a program you're considering for your teen, check ISAC's list:
 
http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.asp

Peninsula Village fails on the majority.

[AuntieEm2]

Peninsula Village does have accreditation and licensure, but the JCAHO certification is a result of PV being a "satellite" of Parkwest

I often urge people to fully comprehend what JCAHO accreditation means. On the JCAHO site you can search for specific facilities and view their accreditation. Here is the report for PV (yes, associated with Parkwest). 

Scroll down and you will see they are accredited for Heart Attack Care, Heart Failure Care and Pneumonia Care. Click on "details" and you will see this has zippo to do with behavioral care of teenagers.
http://www.qualitycheck.org/qualityreport.aspx?hcoid=7851

Gee, sounds good, though, doesn't it?

Auntie Em

[TheWho]

Forty-one participants or 33% of the surveys were returned completed"

But as far as the Survey results go they track closely with what would be expected from a survey of this kind and in line with national averages.

The average response rate tracks about 32.52% with the Median on or about 26.45%.  With population under a 1,000 we like to see the rate up above that but other considerations are the time of year the survey was sent out (summer months have a lower rate), population motivation/interest etc.  But pretty much any rate above 25% you can be approximately 95% certain of +/-5% accuracy in your survey results.


So it is safe to say that Peninsula Village's survey has the probability of being 95% accurate (+/- 5%) which is very reliable. 

Click on the link below for detailed results.








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[ZenAgent]

For the $100k in tuition PV charges, parents should expect a professional outcome study with tracked post-discharge progress of random program participants, not a handpicked group of alumni.  It would be impossible, though - too many former PV patients, even lauded alumni, end up as cop killers (Matthew Grant), recidivist sex offenders (Andrew Klepper, baseball bat sodomizer turned pimp), or shoved into car trunks by "friends" after fatally overdosing (find that name yourself). The mailed-out questionnaire is acceptable for measuring customer satisfaction with dish washers.

Pulling numbers out of your ass without understanding the difference between kitchen appliances and kids means you're the right kind of guy for PV's marketing department.  You can quit Webvocates and finally move out of your mom's basement.

At Peninsula Village, $100,000 in tuition buys parents a traumatized kid who will never trust them again and this really swell FREE T-shirt.  Wear it with pride and tell the world "My kid needed serious fixing and I was a huge tool.  Thanks, PV!"

[TheWho]

Zen Agent wrote:

For the $100k in tuition PV charges, parents should expect a professional outcome study with tracked post-discharge progress of random program participants, not a handpicked group of alumni.

No they should expect what they pay for and that is to have their childs problems addressed which Peninsula Village is doing.  The type of survey they used is in line with the majority of mid to large sized corporations.

Zen Agent wrote:

  It would be impossible, though - too many former PV patients, even lauded alumni, end up as cop killers (Matthew Grant), recidivist sex offenders (Andrew Klepper, baseball bat sodomizer turned pimp), or shoved into car trunks by "friends" after fatally overdosing (find that name yourself).

If you researched any successful university in the country you would find alumni who ended up committing crimes and going to jail.  These type of people are not exclusive to TBS’s.

Zen Agent wrote:

The mailed-out questionnaire is acceptable for measuring customer satisfaction with dish washers.

Actually this type of survey has not been found to be very effective with service industries (i.e dishwashers).  This type of information is usually captured via “point of purchase”.  They leave a card at the table or sometimes you see them in hotel rooms and ask you for feedback on their service, cleanliness of the room, timely service etc.  These are extremely effect and typically have a response rate above 40%.  Many universities are utilizing emailed surveys thru the schools intranet or a local site to capture information which is also effect.

Zen Agent wrote:

Pulling numbers out of your ass without understanding the difference between kitchen appliances and kids means you're the right kind of guy for PV's marketing department.  You can quit Webvocates and finally move out of your mom's basement.

You seem to be the one making assumptions and misunderstanding.  Just because you like to mislead people doesn’t mean everyone does.

Zen Agent wrote:

At Peninsula Village, $100,000 in tuition buys parents a traumatized kid who will never trust them again and this really swell FREE T-shirt.  Wear it with pride and tell the world "My kid needed serious fixing and I was a huge tool.  Thanks, PV!"

I believe most parents understand that the schools are not the ones setting the price.  The price is driven by the parents (via supply and demand).  If PV, for example, had 20% of their beds empty then the price would eventually go down until the place was full and if there was a waiting list to get in then the price would go up.  If they charged $250,000, no one would show up.  If they charged $1,000 then there would be a line running up the street.  As more and more schools like this open up the price will come down to make it more affordable.
I understand your child didn’t do well at PV, every industry has dissatisfied customers like yourself.  But there are many who do extremely well and would be proud to wear the t-shirt.  Many universities and private schools sell or give away shirts, bumper stickers, sweaters etc. with the schools name on it.  It shows pride in the school they attend and also promotes the school (free advertising) so it is a win-win.



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[AuntieEm2]

PV houses 90 kids per year. So if the study looked at the 270 families who had children there over three years, and the survey was mailed to 125 parents of graduates, then PV survey documents that only 46% of teens sent to PV graduate.

Now if we turn our attention to credible, non-biased research, and a study of overall drug and alcohol abuse by the US population by the National Institutes of Health (NIH), National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA),

"Using face-to-face interviews to evaluate more than 8,000 people according to the DSM-III-R criteria for substance abuse or dependence, the investigators found a lifetime prevalence of 26.6 percent for any substance-use disorder in persons between 15 and 54 years of age. Less than half of those with substance abuse or dependence had ever received any treatment for these conditions."

PV's survey shows that 31 percent or their handpicked grads are currently using drugs and alcohol, so PV's results after expensive PV "treatment" are worse than, or at best the same as, the overall US population, more than half of whom have received no treatment at all.

The Who wrote:

This type of information is usually captured via ?point of purchase?.  They leave a card at the table or sometimes you see them in hotel rooms and ask you for feedback on their service, cleanliness of the room, timely service etc.  These are extremely effect and typically have a response rate above 40%.

No, these are not comparable to the survey sent by PV. All hotel guests, satified or unsatisfied, are offered these surveys, not just the guests who are sure to provide a favorable report. Hotels also don't send the surveys to the parents of the guest, who never stay a night in the hotel--sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?--but offer them to the guest directly.
 
Auntie Em

[TheWho]

PV houses 90 kids per year. So if the study looked at the 270 families who had children there over three years, and the survey was mailed to 125 parents of graduates, then PV survey documents that only 46% of teens sent to PV graduate.

Now if we turn our attention to credible, non-biased research, and a study of overall drug and alcohol abuse by the US population by the National Institutes of Health (NIH), National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA),


PV's survey shows that 31 percent or their handpicked grads are currently using drugs and alcohol, so PV's results after expensive PV "treatment" are worse than, or at best the same as, the overall US population, more than half of whom have received no treatment at all.

Not sure you can compare the two populations.  If one population is hand picked and the other is not then they cannot be compared. The first step would be to gather similar populations and then compare them side by side.

No, these are not comparable to the survey sent by PV. All hotel guests, satified or unsatisfied, are offered these surveys, not just the guests who are sure to provide a favorable report. Hotels also don't send the surveys to the parents of the guest, who never stay a night in the hotel--sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?--but offer them to the guest directly.

Thanks AuntieEm, it may not have been clear to the readers also, we are in agreement here.  Zen had indicated that “The mailed-out questionnaire is acceptable for measuring customer satisfaction with dish washers.”  I was pointing out that “point of purchase” was a better way of measuring the service industry (Dishwashers) and mail-outs are typically more effective with businesses or institutions.  So PV picked the correct research medium to better reach their target people and their results are in-line with the rest of the industry.  What seems to be in question with yourself and Zen is how the population was choosen and I am not sure we have this piece.  Typically the research firm handles this.



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[Anonymous]

PV houses 90 kids per year. So if the study looked at the 270 families who had children there over three years, and the survey was mailed to 125 parents of graduates, then PV survey documents that only 46% of teens sent to PV graduate.

Now if we turn our attention to credible, non-biased research, and a study of overall drug and alcohol abuse by the US population by the National Institutes of Health (NIH), National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA),


PV's survey shows that 31 percent or their handpicked grads are currently using drugs and alcohol, so PV's results after expensive PV "treatment" are worse than, or at best the same as, the overall US population, more than half of whom have received no treatment at all.

Not sure you can compare the two populations.  If one population is hand picked and the other is not then they cannot be compared. The first step would be to gather similar populations and then compare them side by side.

No, these are not comparable to the survey sent by PV. All hotel guests, satified or unsatisfied, are offered these surveys, not just the guests who are sure to provide a favorable report. Hotels also don't send the surveys to the parents of the guest, who never stay a night in the hotel--sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?--but offer them to the guest directly.

Thanks AuntieEm, it may not have been clear to the readers also, we are in agreement here.  Zen had indicated that “The mailed-out questionnaire is acceptable for measuring customer satisfaction with dish washers.”  I was pointing out that “point of purchase” was a better way of measuring the service industry (Dishwashers) and mail-outs are typically more effective with businesses or institutions.  So PV picked the correct research medium to better reach their target people and their results are in-line with the rest of the industry.  What seems to be in question with yourself and Zen is how the population was choosen and I am not sure we have this piece.  Typically the research firm handles this.





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I think the nasty part about this whole thing is that people like the smug "who" guy are being paid in some cases.

How is a person supposed to believe what they are reading? If these people actually engaged in real, passionate debate instead of trying to water it down and insert misinformation into it, would they be able to keep their troll jobs. These people are being paid to spread doubt; they are not trying to reach a conclusion; which would be the ideal end goal of a debate. They want to keep people doubting. That is where power is, that is where people can be manipulated.  Lives are at stake, and these trolls will accept money to try to prevent real discussion, and the formulation of real solutions.

Anyone and everyone who is attempting to actually get something done in the world that might impact either the profits of mega-conglomerate supranational companies or the political goal of ever-increasing centralization is going to be subject to defensive maneuvering of these trolls. The reason the good guys always lose is because it doesn't occur to them that their opposition is perfectly happy to play dirty, and are therefore unprepared for it when it arrives.

The goal is to render a group or individual's "good works" ineffectual. Paralyzing the group with infighting, endless debate, or busywork removing spam and trolling are easy ways to do this. Tolerance of people and debate to the point that work and productive discussion are slowed or stopped altogether is a "win" for the opposition, and an easy one at that.

[Anonymous]

I understand your child didn’t do well at PV, every industry has dissatisfied customers like yourself.  But there are many who do extremely well and would be proud to wear the t-shirt.  Many universities and private schools sell or give away shirts, bumper stickers, sweaters etc. with the schools name on it.  It shows pride in the school they attend and also promotes the school (free advertising) so it is a win-win.



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Hey who.  The T-shirt is as fake as PV's treatment.  Any school you type in on some class reunion sights, it mocks up a shirt with the name on for sale.  PV have jackets for staff with an eagle on them.  Just staff. 

Your hatred for Z is well known, but try not to be such a dick???  His daughter was abused at PV, as are a lot of kids.  She was lucky to be pulled out of there, so "not doing well" in the program is an insult to her and the other kids trashed by PV.  Z isn't a dissatisfied customer?  Because he never bought it in the first place.  And despite your guess that many do well, keep in mind PV fired everyone involved with Z's kids case.   Quit insulting the survivors by continuing to belittle what happened to them.

[TheWho]

I think the nasty part about this whole thing is that people like the smug "who" guy are being paid in some cases.

How is a person supposed to believe what they are reading? If these people actually engaged in real, passionate debate instead of trying to water it down and insert misinformation into it, would they be able to keep their troll jobs. These people are being paid to spread doubt; they are not trying to reach a conclusion; which would be the ideal end goal of a debate. They want to keep people doubting. That is where power is, that is where people can be manipulated.  Lives are at stake, and these trolls will accept money to try to prevent real discussion, and the formulation of real solutions.

Anyone and everyone who is attempting to actually get something done in the world that might impact either the profits of mega-conglomerate supranational companies or the political goal of ever-increasing centralization is going to be subject to defensive maneuvering of these trolls. The reason the good guys always lose is because it doesn't occur to them that their opposition is perfectly happy to play dirty, and are therefore unprepared for it when it arrives.

The goal is to render a group or individual's "good works" ineffectual. Paralyzing the group with infighting, endless debate, or busywork removing spam and trolling are easy ways to do this. Tolerance of people and debate to the point that work and productive discussion are slowed or stopped altogether is a "win" for the opposition, and an easy one at that.

First off I seriously doubt that people are being paid to troll on fornits. 

Secondly, If you read the above posts you will see that posters like ZenAgent and AuntieEm are trying to spread doubt about the survey results.  They pretty much come right out and say the population was hand picked to sway the results.  Have we seen them produce any proof of this?  Of course not.  This is the norm here with most.  There is no intention to debate anyone on the facts because they don’t have any.  There are insinuations that a 33% response rate is below the norm which is a clear indication that they did zero research before making such a statement.  There is very little debate here because few of the anti-program people deal with facts and actually dislike any sort of data collection or statistics as I have proven numerous times with my presented facts.  I have offered and initiated a few attempts at collecting data on the industry only to be met with harsh resistance and criticism.  The anti-program groups  best offense is misinformation.  This has been proven over and over again and is evident throughout this thread.

I come on fornits to add balance and try to keep the conversation in perspective.  If I don’t have any facts or knowledge in a particular area I state clearly that this is my opinion.  Other posters make statements like “handpicked group of alumni”, biased research without producing any facts to back up the statements.

But I think the good guys “will” win this one despite the dirty play and underhanded tactics.  Time will be the definitive judge of this, I believe.



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[TheWho]

Hey who.  The T-shirt is as fake as PV's treatment.  Any school you type in on some class reunion sights, it mocks up a shirt with the name on for sale.  PV have jackets for staff with an eagle on them.  Just staff. 

Your hatred for Z is well known, but try not to be such a dick???  His daughter was abused at PV, as are a lot of kids.  She was lucky to be pulled out of there, so "not doing well" in the program is an insult to her and the other kids trashed by PV.  Z isn't a dissatisfied customer?  Because he never bought it in the first place.  And despite your guess that many do well, keep in mind PV fired everyone involved with Z's kids case.   Quit insulting the survivors by continuing to belittle what happened to them.

Malone, Wow that is harsh.  I never mentioned I held any hatred towards anyone here on fornits.  I believe you are mixing your statement up with the opposite.  Based on Zen Agents postings and desperation to paint every aspect of PV as negative as possible  I think we all need to take this into consideration when viewing the facts he presented on his daughters accounts there.  Why should we be expected to believe he was honest and forthcoming with her story but presents fabricated and poorly biased evidence everywhere else?
As far as insulting survivors goes.  Before I apologize to anyone why don’t you shoot me a link where you cared as much about how parents and their kids (and other non survivors) were poorly treated here on fornits without cause and you stood up to protect them or speak out in their defense.  Then we can talk…. Lets keep it fair.



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[Anonymous]

extremely obvious troll is extremely obvious

[Anonymous]

I think the nasty part about this whole thing is that people like the smug "who" guy are being paid in some cases.

How is a person supposed to believe what they are reading? If these people actually engaged in real, passionate debate instead of trying to water it down and insert misinformation into it, would they be able to keep their troll jobs. These people are being paid to spread doubt; they are not trying to reach a conclusion; which would be the ideal end goal of a debate. They want to keep people doubting. That is where power is, that is where people can be manipulated.  Lives are at stake, and these trolls will accept money to try to prevent real discussion, and the formulation of real solutions.

Anyone and everyone who is attempting to actually get something done in the world that might impact either the profits of mega-conglomerate supranational companies or the political goal of ever-increasing centralization is going to be subject to defensive maneuvering of these trolls. The reason the good guys always lose is because it doesn't occur to them that their opposition is perfectly happy to play dirty, and are therefore unprepared for it when it arrives.

The goal is to render a group or individual's "good works" ineffectual. Paralyzing the group with infighting, endless debate, or busywork removing spam and trolling are easy ways to do this. Tolerance of people and debate to the point that work and productive discussion are slowed or stopped altogether is a "win" for the opposition, and an easy one at that.

Yep yep. 

[Anonymous]

  Before I apologize to anyone why don’t you shoot me a link where you cared as much about how parents and their kids (and other non survivors) were poorly treated here on fornits without cause and you stood up to protect them or speak out in their defense. 

Fuck off you whiny little bitch.  No one is forced to be here.  The kids stuck in programs have no choice but to listen to the nastiness.  You or any other parent that feels that Fornits is just a bit too mean are free to leave at any time.  If you think what gets said or written here is bad, you should try surviving in a program for a year or two.  That's where the real sadists are.

[TheWho]

 Quit insulting the survivors by continuing to belittle what happened to them.

d;oic;j wrote:
Fuck off you whiny little bitch.  No one is forced to be here.