Re: HAPA

[Maximillian]

OK, see you later, Danny.  Can't wait to hear your response :shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:

[Ursus]

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's
2. No way out
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now.
See ya.

Yes yes. Better do some more fact-checking first ... with some of yer "warrior" friends who are a lil more in the know, eh?

Speaking of spin...

Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).

Hundreds??!! Over what period of time? Even for, say, a period of a decade, "hundreds" translates into at least twenty per year, which is generally not the pace opted for when it comes to ruminating on "deep spiritual insights," let alone experiencing "6 hour rolfing massages" with subsequent delusions of levitation as a bonus.

That is... unless you're addicted to it! Are you SURE your electrolytes are still in balance??!    Altered states can be achieved through a variety of ways and means, not necessarily dependent on the imbibing of narcotic substances...

Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal.
Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close.

Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask.  
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

"The lady doth protest too much ... methinks." [/list]

[Anne Bonney]

Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask.  
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.

I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.

[Ursus]

Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask.  
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.

I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.

I agree, Anne. For that matter, doing a sweat in a Finnish or Nordic steam house / sauna, or however heretik chooses to describe it, is also a lot different than the sweat that takes place during the New Warrior Training Adventure (or TAW).

· · ·

Fwiw, for reasons of relevance, a currently active thread re. the James Ray sweat lodge tragedy that occurred last year:

• aparently, adults want to go to programs too
  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923

[heretik]

Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask.  
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement?

[/b]

I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.

I am not chasing Guru's Anne. Don't see the need for one.

[/b]

[heretik]

Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask.  
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.

I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.

I agree, Anne. For that matter, doing a sweat in a Finnish or Nordic steam house / sauna, or however heretik chooses to describe it, is also a lot different than the sweat that takes place during the New Warrior Training Adventure (or TAW).
 · · ·
Fwiw, for reasons of relevance, a currently active thread re. the James Ray sweat lodge tragedy that occurred last year:

• aparently, adults want to go to programs too
  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28923

I mentioned the Nordic Lodge because this is where we actually did our sweats, outside on the grounds of the Nordic Lodge. A finnish family owned the lodge back in the seventies. This lodge was in Kenyon R.I.(part of Charlestown R.I.) off of Rt. 2. In and around this area there is a rather large population of Narragansett, Mohegan, Wampanoag and the Algonquian Indians. So sweating with Hihawatha Brown, Tarzan Brown, Sunny Spears, Thunderbolt Spears, Hizi Brown, Randy Noka, Sunny Noka and a mixture of others (all natives I grew up with) was not unusual.
There were actual sweat huts made from Mother nature herself or as the Narragansetts like to do was burrow into the side of a hill and hollow out a room, stick a pipe down through the top so when things got to hot they would open the entrance and this flume. There idea off cross ventilation, I will say, it worked.

Off topic for a second; clarification.
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Nordic+ ... en___US378
Today you will find the Nordic Lodge to be a dining extravaganza, absolutely superb. I swam in this pond often. They had a dock that went about 40ft into the lake at the entrance of the dock (on top of the dock) sat the Steam/Sauna house. In the winter we would jump in the freezing water then run back to the sauna. What a rush.

Back on topic;
So as you can see the sweating I was involved in was not any different then I had done with MKP.
As far as this character James Ray. I read a bit more about him and this guy is just to much for me.

[Ursus]

Back on topic;
So as you can see the sweating I was involved in was not any different then I had done with MKP.
As far as this character James Ray. I read a bit more about him and this guy is just to much for me.

Involvement with MKP entails a lot more than a few sweats. It also entails a fair amount of indoctrination, if you will, into a certain mindset as facilitated by group exercises of male-oriented newage psychobabble, confrontational pseudo therapy, as well as various experiential exercises over the course of the New Warrior Training Adventure (or TAW).

And then, of course, there are the "I-Groups" you can participate in afterwards, to keep you in tune with "the culture of your peers."

This is not so very different from James Ray's motivational speaker exploits, save that a single person is allegedly at the helm rather than a group of folk, as well as differences in specific word usage in the requisite special lingo. Come to think of it, this same psychological toolbox from the human potential movement, IMHO, is resorted to by Hyde School and always has been!  

What all of these groups have in common is their negation of the value of one's critical thinking abilities, the use of experientials to enhance the impact of "The Message," and the use of "The Group" to speed up the inculcation process and stuff cotton into the mouths of potential nay-sayers, not to mention the economic benefits of using recruits to do the job of recruiting.

[Anne Bonney]

Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

What you're describing and what James Ray was doing are two very different animals.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement?

Sorry, don't know how to help ya there.  It's pretty clear to me.  James Ray was not doing what you described above.  I have no problem with 'sweats' done as their intended.....I DO have a problem with unqualified people running their own version of them for profit.  The way I see James Ray, from everything I've read, is that he came across an idea  (in his case, Native American sweats lodges), saw a huge opportunity to fulfill two things for him.  To make a shitload of money and to be viewed as a "guru".

I still don't get this 'guru chasing' culture.

I am not chasing Guru's Anne. Don't see the need for one.

I wasn't really referring to you, moreso the people that seem to run from self-help guru to self-help guru, but if the shoe fits.

[Ursus]

Going back to a previous post:

Along similar lines of inquiry...

Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"

Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?

@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...

Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!

[Anne Bonney]

Just even the phrase "New Warrior Training" would give me pause for thought.  I mean, is this meant to bring about peace in one's life or become some "warrior".  And a warrior for what?

[Ursus]

Going back to a previous post:

Along similar lines of inquiry...

Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"

Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?

@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...

Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!

Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...

[heretik]

Going back to a previous post:

Along similar lines of inquiry...

Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"

Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?

@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...

Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!

Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...

Ursus, first I want to say I am not qualified to answer your questions to the degree I believe you deserve. The therapeutic value of the MK weekend I would like to back off on that comment, it is personal and I honestly would rather not open myself up to scrutiny out on a public forum. Plus I do not have the expertise to articulate in a written form my thoughts and experiences I had during the weekend and subsequent years after.
I apologize for speaking in generalized and vague statements. I should not have implied, that I was speaking for anyone. I am learning to be more disciplined with my thoughts before I type.
I am also beginning to understand that you may have much more experience in therapeutic values the I. I would suggest that this turn into a more specific laymen question and answer format. Just a suggestion so I can maybe answer your questions. OK?  

I will say this about the weekend, the entire experience is based on the book, "Iron John" by Robert Bly. At least this is what my weekend theme was based on.

From Library Journal; Bly redefines masculinity in a groundbreaking book that went to Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc.
http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-Ab ... 0679731199
From Library Journal:
Bly, a major American poet who won a National Book Award in 1968, appears regularly at workshops for men. The book's title refers to a mentor-like figure in a Grimms fairy tale who serves as Wild Man, initiator, and source of divine energy for a young man. This marvelous folktale of resonant, many-layered meanings is an apt choice for demonstrating the need for men to learn from other men how to honor and re imagine the positive image of their masculinity. Bly has always responded to Blakean and Yeatsian intensities, preferring to travel the path lit by mythic road signs. His intent here is to restore a lost heritage of emotional connection and expose the paltriness of a provisional life. For many men capable of responding imaginatively to allegory and myth this will be an instructive and ultimately exculpating book.

Note:
Others may regard it as an inscrutable attempt, intuitive at best, to find merit in male developmental anxieties.
 

I

[Ursus]

Going back to a previous post:

Along similar lines of inquiry...

Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"

Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?

@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...

Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!

Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...

Ursus, first I want to say I am not qualified to answer your questions to the degree I believe you deserve. The therapeutic value of the MK weekend I would like to back off on that comment, it is personal and I honestly would rather not open myself up to scrutiny out on a public forum. Plus I do not have the expertise to articulate in a written form my thoughts and experiences I had during the weekend and subsequent years after.
I apologize for speaking in generalized and vague statements. I should not have implied, that I was speaking for anyone. I am learning to be more disciplined with my thoughts before I type.
I am also beginning to understand that you may have much more experience in therapeutic values the I. I would suggest that this turn into a more specific laymen question and answer format. Just a suggestion so I can maybe answer your questions. OK?  

I will say this about the weekend, the entire experience is based on the book, "Iron John" by Robert Bly. At least this is what my weekend theme was based on.

From Library Journal; Bly redefines masculinity in a groundbreaking book that went to Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc.
http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-Ab ... 0679731199
From Library Journal:
Bly, a major American poet who won a National Book Award in 1968, appears regularly at workshops for men. The book's title refers to a mentor-like figure in a Grimms fairy tale who serves as Wild Man, initiator, and source of divine energy for a young man. This marvelous folktale of resonant, many-layered meanings is an apt choice for demonstrating the need for men to learn from other men how to honor and re imagine the positive image of their masculinity. Bly has always responded to Blakean and Yeatsian intensities, preferring to travel the path lit by mythic road signs. His intent here is to restore a lost heritage of emotional connection and expose the paltriness of a provisional life. For many men capable of responding imaginatively to allegory and myth this will be an instructive and ultimately exculpating book.

Note:
Others may regard it as an inscrutable attempt, intuitive at best, to find merit in male developmental anxieties.
 

I

Okay... So how do you feel about MKP's role in the whole reparative therapy issue?

[heretik]

Ursus wrote:
Okay... So how do you feel about MKP's role in the whole reparative therapy issue?

Ursus, I am and was not aware MKP had any stance on or interest in "reparative therapy". If I had, I never would have proceeded to get involved.
Once again let me explain. My involvement with MK was short, one weekend. My first comments I expressed here, that you enjoy posting over and over are a bit fluffed.
I tried to explain this in a previous post. I explained that I needed to be more disciplined with my thoughts and reactions to them. Most of my experiences are based on
hearsay not actual doing or experiencing others. This is the truth of it all. I commented initially on my weekend experience and on what friends have told me about there
involvement. I would rather not elaborate on someones experience even though they trusted me with the information any more.
thanks
 

Just to be sure, we are talking about these issues below; This is a excerpt of the article.
 
http://jgford.homestead.com/PrivatePractice.html
Jeffry G. Ford, MA, Licensed Psychologist is a 1983 graduate of St. Mary's University, Winona, MN where he received his master's degree in Counseling and Psychological Services.    He is also licensed as a Marriage and Family Therapist and an Independent Clinical Social Worker.  He is the owner and director of Associated Resources In Psychology, PA in Roseville, MN where he maintains a private therapy and consulting practice.  He uses an empathy based, solution-focused model as his counseling style.  Jeff especially enjoys working with couples and families challenged by relationship and communication difficulties.  He has great compassion for those who have been wounded by religious fundamentalism.  He values diversity in all it's richness.  He respects the rights of all individuals and couples to define boundaries and make decisions in accordance with personal values, not confined by social stereotypes.  

http://jgford.homestead.com/
He has specialized in addressing the complexities involved with the anti-gay theory known both as Reparative Therapy and  Sexual Conversion Therapy, which purports to prevent and cure homosexuality.  He speaks from experience as one who studied and practiced reparative therapies for years.  Because of his personal and professional experience, Ford is able to offer accurate answers and powerful insight.  He provides useful skills and tools to challenge the dangerous use of pseudo scientific theories like these and other discrediited methods. He is a frequent workshop presenter and guest lecturer  He was formerly the executive director of OUTPOST an "ex-gay" ministry located in Minneapolis, MN.  For almost 10 years Jeff claimed to be a "former homosexual". For many years he was a national speaker for Exodus International, which remains the governing Board and communication hub for most ex-gay ministries.  His story, along with the stories of twelve other "exex-gays" is featured in the volume Finally Free compiled by the Washington DC based Human Rights Campaign.