Re: HAPA

[heretik]

There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. I can only say we are not.
I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be.
I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.  



#1

Korry · 10/17/2007 8:39:13 AM

I have been a proud member of MKP since 1999, and like Chris Vogel, I am also a journalist, but aside from what I see as poor research, a clear bias, and prose so sensationalistic that it would make Geraldo Rivera wince, one thing that strikes me is the curiously puritanical panic over nudity throughout the piece in what is supposed to be an alternative weekly. I mean, the title of the piece starts off with "Naked Men" as if we all supposed to be shocked, shocked! at the very idea of such, and the word "naked" then shows up eight more times, pejoratively. This, more than anything, shows up the depth of neuroticism in American culture over the human body, across the ideological spectrum, no matter how "progressive" such ostensibly alternative New Times franchises claim to be. That Vogel can not concieve of men getting naked together without imputing sexual transgressions is proof of that. Robert Bly's "Wild Man" is still too radical a notion for a people who are afraid of going through life by actually LIVING it.

#2

Anon · 12/15/2007 11:05:04 PM

      I used to be an MKP member. I went through the NWTA back in 1992, before MKP was even founded. The New Warrior Network became the MKP a few years later, apparently for legal reasons (a company inside a company fares legal problems better) but also to show that it wasn't a one-trick-pony type of thing, and to broaden its appeal as well as make it more internationally portable. When I went through, it was intense, challenging, weird, exhausting, exhilarating, and transformative. I really wonder what sort of person I'd be today if I hadn't done it. I would probably still be very unhappy, timid, and repressed. The experience really was what I needed at the time and for the next 10 years, I was part of it and its weekly meetings, etc. As years went by though, and more and more people joined, some with complex and off-topic agendas, the whole point of the thing began to get murkier. There was a lot more vying for position, the typical B-S associated with, say, work life, and some really nutty dudes began showing up. I agree that there were people in the training doing stuff that was pretty advanced with trainees that may or may not have been ready for the experience. Most therapists don't get as deep as what happens in the first 1-2 hours at the training. And while it's true to say that perhaps they should, it is also true to say that such an event is no time for amateur hour. There were a couple times when I staffed that I felt that some men in positions of authority in the training were behaving in ways they really should not have been, and treated me or other men there in a way inconsistent with the stated goals of the training, to put it mildly. What the final straw for me was though was the thorough and seemingly intractable "muddying of the goals" I mentioned before. All sorts of new "protocols" were introduced that were a significant departure from the main focus of the organization as I had experienced it. This is not just the complaint of an old hand who likes things the way he has always seen them; these new exercises and "protocols" were really very controversial to say the least and focused intensely around the examination of ethnic identity issues and racism in society and in one's personal life. Such topics are important and have their place in self-examination, but this was not like adding 5% to something, but more like 50%. And, it was done with no consultation with the membership at large and seemed to be pursued in an aggressive and positively antagonistic way. When I realized that this seemed to be a change that was going to happen with or without my approval or the approval of others at large, I decided it was time for me to move on. I had other issues, too, but this was the biggest one. Since then, I have had little or no contact with other MKP members, mostly because we have just gone off our own ways in life. Some of the friends I made through MKP agreed with my opinion of things or came to their own similar conclusions and also just "moved on". It was a sad decision to make; I felt like something very important and wonderful, and needed for so many men and their loved ones, was being spoiled. I comforted myself with the realization that all new pursuits, if they are well-received and establish new ways of viewing the world and one's place in society, eventually become institutions (not unlike government, religion, etc.). And all institutions without exception become corrupt-- ie, the reason they are formed eventually gets lost in politics and agendas and soon it exists merely as an end unto itself. No reason to believe this was any exception, but it was a sad day when I knew I couldn't remain and be "in integrity" with myself. Which brings me to today, 5 years later-- I just found out about this story and indeed I am sorry to see it has arisen. I can't say though I am surprised; the experience is very intense and frankly I am amazed the NWTA hasn't come under this level of public scrutiny due ot such an event before now. Obviously I don't know all the details and have only this article to go by, but I do know this: such an event will have repercussions and its effects will lead to some serious soul-searching among the leadership. If not, then there's something wrong. But no matter, I hope that justice is served in whatever way it should be, and it saddens me to see yet again something that was born of a great need and desire to be of help to men and indeed humanity in general is having serious troubles. I am more saddened though at the loss of this man and the impact it has had on his family and community. Nothing but tragedy in this story-- no winners as it were. All of it bad for everyone.

[Anne Bonney]

There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. I can only say we are not.
I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be.
I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.  

All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it.  They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them.  They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity".  And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.

[heretik]

Going back to heretik's 2nd post (of a 4 post spamfest from the MKP website):

Mankind Project

American Journal of Community Psychology - Excerpt
cda_displayimage.jpg

As an introduction to the kind of work that we do - and the value that we offer - here is a preamble section from a recent peer reviewed research thesis published in the American Journal of Community Psychology. The value of the work that the ManKind Project offers has been documented in multiple research studies and thesis presentations over the past 15 years. Currently there is also a long term study being conducted across the United States by the ManKind Project. Preliminary findings from this study will be presented at the upcoming 25th Anniversary Celebration in Louisville Kentucky on October 21-23, 2010. The Anniversary Celebration is open to the public. There will be nearly 30 workshops and talks presented over the course of 2 days.

Learn more about the 25th Anniversary at: http://anniversary.mkp.org/
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF COMMUNITY PSYCHOLOGY

Volume 45, Numbers 1-2, 186-200, DOI: 10.1007/s10464-009-9283-3
ORIGINAL PAPER
Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization

Christopher K. Burke, Kenneth I. Maton, Eric S. Mankowski and Clinton Anderson
I. GENERALLY, WHAT IS ManKind Project?

Based upon the mobilization of peer rather than professional resources, the MKPI considers itself to be a grassroots response to the needs of contemporary men by providing an environment that fosters and encourages increased emotional availability, pro-social behavior, community and social support, and a clear sense of life purpose in a way that is congruent with, and affirming of, the empowerment and equality of women.[1] Another fundamental aspect of the MKPI is its emphasis on multiculturalism, with a mission statement that defines itself as ‘‘… a progressive men’s organization striving to be increasingly inclusive and affirming of cultural differences, especially with respect to color, class, sexual orientation, faith, age, ability, ethnicity, and nationality.’’[2]
II. WHAT is the New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA)?

As a general description, the TAW can be said to have two main components. The first is a well-designed structure that encourages the participants to behave in ways that traditional male paradigms discourage—being honest about how one’s behavior impacts others, having the courage to face and overcome difficult emotional issues, and being openly affirmative of other men. This is accomplished through standard procedures employed in other experiential workshops, with a strong focus on Gestalt and psychodramatic methodologies (e.g., group discussions, games, rituals, guided visualizations, journaling, and individual process work). The effectiveness of this aspect of the TAW appears not to be the result of any single, particularly unique method of intervention, but in its application of multiple established methods to confront and transform maladaptive male behaviors and beliefs.

The second component is the modeling, support and encouragement of the TAW staff, all of whom have previously attended a TAW. The weekend is staffed mostly by volunteer members of the MKPI, the majority of whom actually pay to staff the weekend (covering the cost of campsite rent and food, as well as scholarships for men with financial difficulties). An average TAW has 25 attendees, and is staffed by 34 men who provide services for them.[3] These staffers not only provide support and encouragement to the TAW enrollees, but also serve as examples of how to enact the nontraditional male roles and behaviors.
III. What are the credentials of the Leaders of the NWTA?

To ensure that every TAW is run proficiently, the MKPI has established a ‘‘Leader’’ certification process. At least four certified leaders are on the staff of every TAW. MKPI leaders are paid for their services and assume full legal and ethical responsibility for the TAW. Leader certification does not constitute a professional license and is not regulated by any government agency. It is a qualification developed by the MKPI to ensure proficiency in managing and leading the logistics of a TAW and to ensure compliance with the MKPI’s standards for education and training. Open to any MKPI member, leader certification requires men to go through a rigorous training process, involving (1) numerous workshops to refine skills necessary to lead a TAW, (2) becoming an apprentice to a current leader, (3) staffing at least 20 TAWs, (4) facing at least three MKPI certification committees, and (5) numerous community volunteer activities. MKPI leader certification is a very time consuming and expensive process, and not all men who undergo leader training are granted leader certification.

Though possessing varied traits, MKPI leaders are selected based on (1) their ability to develop, manage and coordinate a complex group training structure, including overseeing in-depth personal work by individual men within a group setting and (2) their ability to model healthy and adaptive masculine behavior, a characteristic that authors have stated make them particularly effective at leading a TAW.[4] Given the importance of the MKPI leader to the overall process, and to prevent any negative outcomes or abuse that could come from that role, the organization closely monitors leader behaviors and their running of TAWs. On every TAW, at least 1 of the 4 leaders comes from a different center than the one running the weekend, helping to ensure a broad mixture of leader styles and personalities; a full report of the TAW is made to the MKPI by the outside leader. In addition, MKPI leaders must be re-certified annually, and the organization carefully reviews and monitors individual performances.
IV. What is offered by MKP after the NWTA?

Following the TAW, men have the opportunity to join a small, supportive, peer-led ‘‘Integration Group’’ (I-Group), formed from the weekend participants. I-Groups begin meeting 2–4 weeks after the TAW. Group selection is based on either geographic location or availability on a given night of the week. Each I-Group goes through an 8-week facilitation period led by three or four I-Group facilitators, one of whom is a MKPI certified I-Group facilitator (similar to Leadership certification, but of a lesser intensity). The I-Group facilitation attempts to create an environment similar to the TAW and to help the group operate independently after the facilitation period ends. Post the facilitation period, I-Groups usually meet between two and four times a month for two and a half hours. They operate autonomously and without cost, similar in structure and function to other peer-led, self-help/mutual aid groups. The I-Groups continue meeting until its members decide to disband or the group stops meeting due to member attrition.
V. What scientific research has been carried out on MKPI and its participants?

The MKPI has been the subject of five previous (unpublished) studies, all conducted by MKPI participants (due at least in part to the confidential nature of the TAW). These studies all suggest there are positive changes on the various constructs that researchers felt were germane to the MKPI experience, including an improved understanding of gender roles and increased male intimacy,[5] similar or better outcomes when compared to traditional therapy,[6] improved ability to cope with transition, loss, and unresolved issues from the past,[7] gaining a greater sense of spirituality, purpose and life meaning,[8] and improved social support[9]. In addition, preliminary research on I-Groups in the Washington, DC area suggests that they are effective in retaining members. One research study revealed a median I-Group survival time of 4.5 years (with 70% lasting at least 2 years), and a median length of individual participation of 26.2 months[10]. However, few conclusions can be drawn from these studies due to limitations in the research designs (e.g., small sample sizes, short term follow-up, no comparison samples) and because predictors of outcomes and potential mechanisms of influence generally were not examined. As such, the present research was undertaken to examine MKPI more thoroughly and rigorously, with a much longer longitudinal assessment period, a greater number of variables, a much larger sample, and use of both qualitative and quantitative data.

Re: An original paper published in the American Journal of Community Psychology, January 22, 2010 (online), entitled: “Healing Men and Community: Predictors of Outcome in a Men’s Initiatory and Support Organization, by Christopher K. Burke • Kenneth I. Maton • Eric S. Mankowski • Clinton Anderson – of which the text (but not section titles) is excerpted

[1] ManKind Project International 2005; see also, Mankowski et al. 2000b
[2] ManKind Project International 2005
[3] Drury Heffernan, personal communication, March 17, 2008
[4] E.g. Segell 1999
[5] Hartman 1994; Levin 1997; Schulz 1997; Richard 1999
[6] Levin 1997; Richard 1999
[7] Schulz 1997; Richard 1999; Goll 2001
[8] Richard 1999; Goll 2001
[9] Barton 2003
[10] Mankowski et al. 2000a

The above appears to have been lifted straight from what is currently displayed on MKP's homepage (scroll down past the video):  http://mankindproject.org/

The above referenced paper appears to be based, at least in part, on Christopher Burke's 356-page Ph.D. dissertation (2004, University of Maryland). This was previously mentioned in the Pathways thread, which is about an MKP offshoot for teens (primarily boys) that is currently active in Australia:

Originally posted on 26 Dec 2007:

There is a 356 page PhD dissertation by a Christopher Kenneth Burke (2004, University of Maryland, Adviser Dr. Kenneth I. Maton), which is pretty much very pro-MKP from a cursory look at it.  The paper contains a number of references which might be worth some looking into as well.  This download is from a South African Social Services organization, who has seen fit to include it amongst supporting papers and other reference work for their "Fatherhood Project."

"Healing Men and Community:  Predictors of Outcome in a Men's Initiatory and Support Organization"
http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-104.phtml

[/list]

Ursidae, (great name) thanks for pointing this info out to the masses. I see you have a education concerning MKP. MkP is not the only course men can take, there are many. I would hope your "cursory look" would not blind you to the vast wealth of info being offered. Mr Burke's dissertation is all worth looking into if for nothing else, good educational reading.
Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.

Sorry about the link, I guess I just supposed everyone here knew so much about MKP, you would know where these articles came from. Why you are calling them spam I have no idea, I am not trying to sell. My point was to educate. It seemed that very little information about MKP was out there, so I nudged some information to the front.

[Anne Bonney]

Ursidae, (great name) thanks for pointing this info out to the masses. I see you have a education concerning MKP. MkP is not the only course men can take, there are many. I would hope your "cursory look" would not blind you to the vast wealth of info being offered. Mr Burke's dissertation is all worth looking into if for nothing else, good educational reading.
Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.

Sorry about the link, I guess I just supposed everyone here knew so much about MKP, you would know where these articles came from. Why you are calling them spam I have no idea, I am not trying to sell. My point was to educate. It seemed that very little information about MKP was out there, so I nudged some information to the front.

What do you think about the deaths and James Ray's reaction to them?

[heretik]

There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. I can only say we are not.
I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be.
I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.  

All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it.  They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them.  They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity".  And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.

Well then, I would say to you keep your men far away from MKP, especially from the state that your speaking from and all other states. Because they are definitely experiencing a workshop that is not healthy. Very sad to hear this. I would like to get the workshops they attended please, not names, just the workshop. The state and maybe the town, that should be enough. Why would we want these workshops to continue in these places if the entire workshop has gone off in another direction not intended by MKP.
Thanks Anne, for pointing this out. Please help me to gather this information, if you would. PM me if you would like with the information.
Men will always have their issues with women as women with men. What has not been healthy for so long is the reactions men have to the problems. The focus in my opinion should stay with me if I am troubled, especially if I do not know what is disturbance within me. Women find communicating with men much more advantageous if we are able to collectively broker the problems. (so to speak)
Thanks

[heretik]

Ursidae, (great name) thanks for pointing this info out to the masses. I see you have a education concerning MKP. MkP is not the only course men can take, there are many. I would hope your "cursory look" would not blind you to the vast wealth of info being offered. Mr Burke's dissertation is all worth looking into if for nothing else, good educational reading.
Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.

Sorry about the link, I guess I just supposed everyone here knew so much about MKP, you would know where these articles came from. Why you are calling them spam I have no idea, I am not trying to sell. My point was to educate. It seemed that very little information about MKP was out there, so I nudged some information to the front.

What do you think about the deaths and James Ray's reaction to them?

I have read very little about James Ray personally, I do not know of his work. All I know is what I have read in the media outlets and subtle conversations friends of mine have had about these tragedies that occurred.
Anne, I will say this. I am not for a one man show, I need a collective of people who are guiding and have equal power.

[Anne Bonney]

There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. I can only say we are not.
I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be.
I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.  

All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it.  They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them.  They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity".  And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.

Well then, I would say to you keep your men far away from MKP, especially from the state that your speaking from and all other states. Because they are definitely experiencing a workshop that is not healthy. Very sad to hear this. I would like to get the workshops they attended please, not names, just the workshop. The state and maybe the town, that should be enough. Why would we want these workshops to continue in these places if the entire workshop has gone off in another direction not intended by MKP.

Are you affiliated with MKP?

Thanks Anne, for pointing this out. Please help me to gather this information, if you would. PM me if you would like with the information.
Men will always have their issues with women as women with men. What has not been healthy for so long is the reactions men have to the problems. The focus in my opinion should stay with me if I am troubled, especially if I do not know what is disturbance within me. Women find communicating with men much more advantageous if we are able to collectively broker the problems. (so to speak)
Thanks

I dunno.....I've been blessed with an amazing husband.  He can be annoying sometimes, but communication isn't really a problem between us.  He's put up with me being a raging lunatic when I was first learning about what Straight did to me and he was more patient and understanding than I could ever ask for.

[heretik]

There are many stories about MKP, most when viewed from the outside look very weird. Why are men (as you say here, Samara and Anne) running around naked and bashing fictitious womens heads with clubs. I can only say we are not.
I will say this in short, far to long have men been absent from their duties, we became lost. This is one way to regain the footing we gave up and be the men we are supposed to be.
I have found women (a true woman) find me more attractive in a innate way.  

All I can tell you is that the 1/2 dozen or so guys I've spoken with that have attended these "workshops" have had nothing but bad things to say about it.  They said it felt very cult-like and that there was a ton of women bashing in them.  They said it seemed like the leader(s) had some bad experiences with women and didn't know how to deal with it other than to blame society and proclaim that women had "stolen their masculinity".  And that they're very, very angry about the ERA and see it as the beginning of the downfall of their (men's) reign.

Well then, I would say to you keep your men far away from MKP, especially from the state that your speaking from and all other states. Because they are definitely experiencing a workshop that is not healthy. Very sad to hear this. I would like to get the workshops they attended please, not names, just the workshop. The state and maybe the town, that should be enough. Why would we want these workshops to continue in these places if the entire workshop has gone off in another direction not intended by MKP.

Are you affiliated with MKP?

Thanks Anne, for pointing this out. Please help me to gather this information, if you would. PM me if you would like with the information.
Men will always have their issues with women as women with men. What has not been healthy for so long is the reactions men have to the problems. The focus in my opinion should stay with me if I am troubled, especially if I do not know what is disturbance within me. Women find communicating with men much more advantageous if we are able to collectively broker the problems. (so to speak)
Thanks

I dunno.....I've been blessed with an amazing husband.  He can be annoying sometimes, but communication isn't really a problem between us.  He's put up with me being a raging lunatic when I was first learning about what Straight did to me and he was more patient and understanding than I could ever ask for.

The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not  a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today.
I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.

Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....

[Samara]

But why do men need a program to be men? Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? Why not BBQ, have a beer, watch a game, pay your bills, be generally honest and responsible, appreciate your S.O, communicate respectfully and fuck happily? It's not really that hard.

[heretik]

But why do men need a program to be men? Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? Why not BBQ, have a beer, watch a game, pay your bills, be generally honest and responsible, appreciate your S.O, communicate respectfully and fuck happily? It's not really that hard.

First let me ask you a few questions.
1. have kids
2. married
3. divorced
4. never married but have kids
5. was father of kids a decent man to his children.
6.  was he a good man to you.

 your answers should tell you, Samara. If it wasn't that hard everyone would be doing it.

[Ursus]

Are you sure Pathways, Australia is still a viable business. I heard it was inactive, could be wrong though.

It would appear that Pathways is still quite active: http://www.pathwaysfoundation.com.au/

They've reduced the visibility of their association with the Mankind Project since the last time I was on their website... but MKP still leads the list on their links page.

The MKPgo website, affiliated/associated with the Mankind Project - Australia, lists Pathways Foundation as well as a few other such or similar organizations:

SUPPORT GROUP LINKS

• Get Real - For Youth
  [li]Youth In Search
• Women Within
• The Pathways Foundation for teenagers

[/li][/list]

Fwiw, Women Within was founded by Char Tosi, wife of Rich Tosi, one of the co-founders of MKP. From what I've read, Women Within is alleged or intended to be the female equivalent to MKP.

[Samara]

I've been through lots of things and you know what? What it comes down to is pretty simple. People fight the simple.  If you are alone and not responsible for anyone but yourself, just live your life how you see fit and don't hurt anyone. You can be free AND responsible and honest.  If you are responsible for others, it is more work. It can be a struggle sometimes.  Accept it and grow the fuck up.

People know what they should be doing; they just don't want to admit it. Because then you have to step up to the plate.

And, again: Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? No "support" group should require an NDA. (Non disclosure agreement)

But as I've said: I don't care what consenting adults do as long as they "first, do no harm." But obviously, some of these groups are scams.  It's not terrible for unfulfilled men to have access to the pros and the cons before they drop their bucks and possibly their dignity along with their clothing.  If it turns out great, and the bad reviews are unfounded, then no harm, no foul. But it is good to be have information and a few quick tips in case your weekend veers toward the cautionary tales.

Just like you'd look up reviews for a car, an appliance, or a trip.

[heretik]

I've been through lots of things and you know what? What it comes down to is pretty simple. People fight the simple.  If you are alone and not responsible for anyone but yourself, just live your life how you see fit and don't hurt anyone. You can be free AND responsible and honest.  If you are responsible for others, it is more work. It can be a struggle sometimes.  Accept it and grow the fuck up.

People know what they should be doing; they just don't want to admit it. Because then you have to step up to the plate.

And, again: Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? No "support" group should require an NDA. (Non disclosure agreement)

But as I've said: I don't care what consenting adults do as long as they "first, do no harm." But obviously, some of these groups are scams.  It's not terrible for unfulfilled men to have access to the pros and the cons before they drop their bucks and possibly their dignity along with their clothing.  If it turns out great, and the bad reviews are unfounded, then no harm, no foul. But it is good to be have information and a few quick tips in case your weekend veers toward the cautionary tales.

Just like you'd look up reviews for a car, an appliance, or a trip.

I see you did not want to answer the questions. Alright you don't have to. I think you see what I mean though, concerning men.
Why are men dropping their clothing, why is being naked such a issue here, are you not comfortable in your nakedness. Do you not find your disrobed body beautiful. There is no shame attached to being naked unless you place it there. It does not really make a difference what society/western culture has taught you. To much American culture is tied to the body (the look, appeal ect..) it is shallow.
Why are we having a issue with adult consenting men inviting in new challenges. There is more information about the weekend then is being let on here. Men are not going into this weekend blind, without a level of knowledge concerning what they may face.
One other point. I am puzzled by the similarities being placed on MKP by the three of you. I know the three of you have first hand knowledge of programs, especially the ones you attended. Yet I have not read where any of you have ever attended a workshop for men or the equivalent for women. Now, from reading your prior posts I am under the assumption that because you went through a program and maybe some of the exercises preformed at the workshop resemble your LGAT's or group encounters, you have a unique perception. Ursus has tied Hyde School into MKP and has made a determination that this has influence over Hyde School in some way. I am not sure your perception is accurate, we are adults, most of us are of ages around 40-50, with a small percentage in their late 20's and 30's.
I can understand the anger coming from men after the workshop, especially the men that had a ruff time and really felt MKP was not for them. The weekend workshop, I will not lie is one tough in your face constantly demanding weekend. Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal.
Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl:  only kidding but close.
Just think guys if you had never been introduced to any kind of dynamic like this before in your life, at least you three have the benefit of experiencing something close but it is not close enough. In this case you have a choice go further or stop, yes there are people pushing you, that is part of life but for once in their life for many men they experince their limits. It is awesome.
I'll get back.

[heretik]

duplicate.

[Samara]

Uh, Heretik, I don't care if people want to hang out naked. My post is not remotely anti-nudity.   ? You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I simply said "buyer beware." Big Deal.