Re: HAPA

[DannyB II]

Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.

They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."

Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).

This was the only thing I addressed in my post, made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.

Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional.
Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.

Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.

But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.
Ursus does not like: HAPA -- an LGAT

Post by Ursus » January 7th, 2008, 11:19 am  viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677
"Perhaps that last post was a bit tasteless of me. Perhaps that is because I consider that whole type of business just that: tasteless. That is, in its most benign form. I think it is usually far more destructive than that for many people.

Now I would have to say that your not a professional either but you seem to have a rather large amount of opinions with a rather caustic emotional side. Ursus do you have personal experience . Oh, thats right your above those questions.
Like I told you Ursus, void this thread, you have nothing.

[Ursus]

Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.

They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."

Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).

This was the only thing I addressed in my post, made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.

Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional.
Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.

Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.

But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist.

IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article:

"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."

[/size]
Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.

[Ursus]

A separate issue this:

Ursus does not like: HAPA -- an LGAT

Post by Ursus » January 7th, 2008, 11:19 am  viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24677
"Perhaps that last post was a bit tasteless of me. Perhaps that is because I consider that whole type of business just that: tasteless. That is, in its most benign form. I think it is usually far more destructive than that for many people.

Now I would have to say that your not a professional either but you seem to have a rather large amount of opinions with a rather caustic emotional side. Ursus do you have personal experience . Oh, thats right your above those questions.
Like I told you Ursus, void this thread, you have nothing.

So now ya wanna fault me for having an opinion? LOLLLLLL... Good luck with that!  

[DannyB II]

Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.

They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."

Oh they had everything to do with your post, I do declare. You just choose not to see it this way. It goes a long way in discrediting your allegations that MKP is coercing and abusing people.  

Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).

One Doctor who made a flippant comment of no consequence, which Ursus, proceeded to dramatize.

This was the only thing I addressed in my post, made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.

Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional.
Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.

Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.

But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist.

Mike Scinto being a head case and a addict had everything to do with this story Ursus and you know this. It goes to his mental state, how cognizant he was, his emotions but utmost his condition. Was he taking drugs before, during and after the weekend retreat. What affect did they have on him. What else was going on with Mike.
There was only one professional of any credibility, thanks for trying to pass the other two by us. I really do believe you think the readers here are stupid.
OH, my mentioning Mike was a addict did have nothing to do with the fact no Doctors gave credible insight, your right.

IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article:

Oh, are you getting all upset because your posting of this story showed your lack of integrity to fair posting of stories.
First, since I know you have no knowledge of how Mike was asked to go to the weekend, I can put this one under ignorance. Second, you are not qualified to post your opinions on whether MKP was egregious in there lack professionalism or not. Third, please don't even try to tie it back into what your one professional Doctor said. Because he said nothing directly on the MIke Scinto circumstances.
Your trying very hard but your lacking hard evidence, your fabricating.

"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."

[/size]
Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.

Once again I will state, you have no authority/knowledge concerning MKP aside from what you read. I have seen the same posts you have and nothing is conclusive at all.
Everyone knows there are no licensed therapists and we want it to stay that way.
You have no evidenced as usual except your opinion of why Mike blew his brains out.
Maybe he wanted to do it before weekend, maybe he planned to do it while at the weekend or on the drive home. Maybe he did not get laid when he returned home from the weekend or found his girlfriend getting laid, maybe , maybe , maybe.
Ursus you don't know shit, so stop acting like you do.

[photo man]

Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.

They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."

Oh they had everything to do with your post, I do declare. You just choose not to see it this way. It goes a long way in discrediting your allegations that MKP is coercing and abusing people.  

Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).

One Doctor who made a flippant comment of no consequence, which Ursus, proceeded to dramatize.

This was the only thing I addressed in my post, made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.

Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional.
Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.

Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.

But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist.

Mike Scinto being a head case and a addict had everything to do with this story Ursus and you know this. It goes to his mental state, how cognizant he was, his emotions but utmost his condition. Was he taking drugs before, during and after the weekend retreat. What affect did they have on him. What else was going on with Mike.
There was only one professional of any credibility, thanks for trying to pass the other two by us. I really do believe you think the readers here are stupid.
OH, my mentioning Mike was a addict did have nothing to do with the fact no Doctors gave credible insight, your right.

IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article:

Oh, are you getting all upset because your posting of this story showed your lack of integrity to fair posting of stories.
First, since I know you have no knowledge of how Mike was asked to go to the weekend, I can put this one under ignorance. Second, you are not qualified to post your opinions on whether MKP was egregious in there lack professionalism or not. Third, please don't even try to tie it back into what your one professional Doctor said. Because he said nothing directly on the MIke Scinto circumstances.
Your trying very hard but your lacking hard evidence, your fabricating.

"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."

[/size]
Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.

Once again I will state, you have no authority/knowledge concerning MKP aside from what you read. I have seen the same posts you have and nothing is conclusive at all.
Everyone knows there are no licensed therapists and we want it to stay that way.
You have no evidenced as usual except your opinion of why Mike blew his brains out.
Maybe he wanted to do it before weekend, maybe he planned to do it while at the weekend or on the drive home. Maybe he did not get laid when he returned home from the weekend or found his girlfriend getting laid, maybe , maybe , maybe.
Ursus you don't know shit, so stop acting like you do.

- Sentence structure -  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:

[Dr. Acula]

::unhappy::

[DannyB II]

Felice wrote:
sPAMMY.....i CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE.
SURELY THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE WHO WOULD PUT A BULLET IN YOU.
i KNOW i WOULD  ::evil::

 Ok, so we had the tragedy of Tim and Sharon with her kids. They were heading home from your house. Maybe one day you will discuss exactly what drugs were taken. Second we know that you are a diturbed little brat that never got her own way. Now wants to make the world pay for it.
Felice your about as consequental as PODK's, maybe he should travel to your hellhole in Wisconsin. You two could perform exorcisms on one another.
Felice just because the "life" you made for yourself "sucks", doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.

[Ursus]

Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.

Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.

Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however!  

[Ursus]

Comments left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 1-20:


S Byers · 10/04/2007 5:39:27 AM

Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what will be going on. And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.

Chris · 10/04/2007 10:45:53 AM

Chris Vogel, great article! I suggest you look into the EST (Ernhard Seminars Training) and Sterling Institute backgrounds of the founders of MKP.

Rory Bowman · 10/04/2007 4:33:54 PM

Any humane person can have nothing but compassion for the Scintos on the loss of their son. That they wish to blame some outside group for this is understandable. Goodness knows that Texan men with drug and alcohol problems have never used guns or drugs to harm themselves before, and I am certain that this lawsuit will solve everyone's problems forever, as MKP failed to. If only young Michael had found Jesus, the way my own brother did the morning when HE killed himself.

Mark ANDERSON · 10/05/2007 6:21:26 AM

I am so sorry for this family but they should not try and blame the MKP for their sons problems. My experience was one of the best things I have ever done in my recovery and in my life. I could leave at any time I wanted and one guy did leave on our weekend. That was fine. There was never anything sexual and it was a very healing weekend.

Jim Stinson · 10/05/2007 10:07:04 AM

From a completely outside perspective, the author appears to be very biased and not too interested in reporting anything fair or balanced. That said, if MKP is this horrible organization doing all these awful things, the question must be asked - and a glaring omissing from this story imho - "to what end are they doing this?" Monetary gain? World domination? Sadistic thrills? And where is the logical comparison, in this report, to other institutions where men go through extremem physical and emtional stress during some for of extended training / initiation ritual .. say .. basic training for the military? Are parents suing the Marines for damage done to their sons during basic? Is the HoustonPress reporting it?

H Lowenburg · 10/05/2007 2:45:44 PM

Because of the Mankind Project: I have reunited with my family, learned how to feel and express feelings, discover much about myself and I now have close friends that are men I can trust - something new for me. It is not the practice of psychology any more than any support group. It is about men being real with each other. It is about self-discovery. One of the guidelines that have always been emphasized every time I have been with MKP is that any man can pass. That includes leaving the weekend and I have seen men leave many times. I do not lie to or miss lead anyone about what goes on at New Warrior training. The men of this organization model compassion, integrity and citizenship for me. Chris, you really got this story wrong. I am proud to be part of sponsoring the first New Orleans New Warrior Training Adventure October 26, 2007. I judge that it important to the healing of my city.

Joey Johansen · 10/05/2007 5:40:20 PM

My heart goes out to the parents of this man. I can't imagine many losses as painful as the suicide death of one's child. I can also understand wanting to blame someone else for his death; I would probably want to do the same, at least initially. Unfortunately, this man's parents have chosen to attack an organization that has helped tens of thousands of men around the world and which I seriously doubt had anything to do with their son's choice to kill himself. I am not a member of MKP but I have known several men who have derived tremendous benefit from the New Warrior Weekend and their involvement in the organization's weekly men's groups. I've talked with a few of these men about this article and to a man they report that none of the claims made by the parents or the reporter are true. For example, all but one indicated that they each knew of at least one man who left the weekend training within the first 24 hours. They never heard any threats being made and in fact remarked on the compassion and support given to the men who left by the MKP staff members. All the men also emphasized that it is made very clear to the participants that the weekend experience is not therapy and men that are seeing a psychologist or other mental health professional are told that they should talk about their experience with their therapist and should not change anything about their treatment. Getting back to the article itself, I can't help thinking that this newspaper reporter has decided to make a name for himself by crafting a sensational tale of injustice and abuse and selling it to the public as legitimate investigative journalism. The reporter's sensationalized prose reeks of bias and pandering to the public's fascination with cults. It seems to me that he has--rather skillfully--distorted events, omitted crucial information, ascribed motives to others without evidence, and packaged it all in a compelling narrative. I can't believe the Houston Press published such a biased article. But then again, I understand that many newspapers, desperate to remain solvent amid rapidly declining subscriber rolls, have chosen to go the way of the tabloids and focus on what sells: sensationalism and tall tales. In this case, the death of a man is agonizingly true but the cause as described in the parents' lawsuit and this piece of hack journalism will probably prove to be pure fiction. It's easy to point a finger at a men's organization that incorporates rites of passage and group processes that don't jibe with America's puritanical bent. It's much more difficult to understand the multiple factors that lead to a person's decision to kill himself and the steps friends and family can take to prevent suicide and to cope with the aftereffects if it has already happened.

Colin · 10/05/2007 8:49:32 PM

I'm a Northern California New Warrior who did my weekend in September of 04. I'm involved with staffing, I-Groups, and supplemental trainings, and take great pride in the work I've done and the signicant changes I've seen in men as a part of this organization. I feel terrible for Michael Scinto and his family; I stand by the overwhelmingly positive attributes of the NWTA and MKP in general, however. A couple of things to remember: men's initiation rituals have been secret since their inception, thousands of years ago. There's power in it. I've never seen or experienced anything creepy or untoward going on in an NWTA. My brother killed himself nine years ago, after a long history of depression and substance abuse. What happened in the weeks leading up to his death probably had little to do with his overall decision. I believe this applies to the situation in this story. Also, as a journalist myself, I judge much of this article was written with hearsay, and as a member of an NWTA staff myself I believe some of it was misreported. My condolences to the man's family. I don't believe MKP was liable for his death, however.

Anonymous · 10/06/2007 6:15:10 AM

If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality? It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men. Real men do not need Warrior Weekends.

Sean · 10/06/2007 8:13:42 AM

MKP has flaws. The initiate weekend is certainly full of strange and uncomfortable experiences. (It supposed to be!)Before you participate you are certainly given the choice to leave. Once you begin the weekend you still can leave but the agreement is that you will be grilled before you do since you were asked prior and warned prior not to enter unless you have the desire, guts and the integrity to go through with it. There are many men like this who should not show-up at all and should have been screened out since they tend to diminish the weekend for other men who show-up to face the ugly realities of their lives- one of which is the anger men in this society carry daily in suffocation and addiction while vicariously experiencing it through movies and sport. This critique is comical- especially when we as a nation train thousands of young men to be killers in our armed forces, stupid unenlightened killers. I was one once. The rituals in the armed services are as strange as MKP's. But the objectives are very different. The US government doesn't seek to make one more aware, caring, compassionate and mature as MKP's goals seek- just the opposite, at much more than $650, that we pay for as taxpayers. This person would most likely have whined his way out of Marine boot camp too. He would have gone through hell if he had and nothing would be made of it. Please........

Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 8:37:04 AM

Folks interested in this article and the ensuing debate should know that the Houston Press also has a blog where you can read and post comments:

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/houstoned ... projec.php Joey[/list]
Paul G · 10/06/2007 8:49:24 AM

My heart goes out to the Scinto's--the parents of Michael Scinto who took his own life. I wish to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I went through the Mankind Project training in 2005. Prior to that, I had worked with a dozen or so therapists since the early 1970's to recover from years of abuse from a sadistic father--abuse allowed by an unstable mother. My work with MKP was an important part of healing from my past--healing which continues to this day. My experience of MKP has been nothing but positive. I felt safe during my weekend experience and indeed confronted many of my "demons" during the weekend in ways I could never have done in a therpist's office. I took many steps forward during that weekend and afterward. Certain kinds of healing cannot be achieved in a therapist's office but can more effectively be accomplished in the presence and power of a group of supportive men. It is natural for Michael Scinto's parents to want to blame someone or something else for the death of their son. Instead of, or in additon to suing MKP, I hope the parents will do the most difficult of tasks--examine themselves as parents and examine their roles in causing their son's pain, for Michael's pain began long before he ever even heard of Mankind Project. The Houston reporter should've investigate how Michael Scinto was parented. The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.

Matthew Owens · 10/06/2007 3:06:57 PM

I attended an MKP initiation in 2003 in Madisonville, Tx. Yes you are greeted by men in dark robes and they take away your personal belongings. You are also warned in the what to bring flyer that this will occur. In the first hour of my initiation a young man cracked and decided to leave. He was not threatened in any way and all that the men who were leading the initiation asked of him in front of all to see was that he be accountable and share the truth as to why he would not continue. He then left without questions. Yes we were deprived of food until the feast. We were given granola and fruit, lots of water, and we were not limited on the quantity of either. It is called in other cultures, FASTING, nothing to be frightened of. We were forced to do things as part of the process, however never did I feel in danger of being hurt or losing my life. Out of my comfort zone, yes, however the entire weekend was about breaking out of the comfort zone, which is artificial, and tends to numb us all. I feel for the family that lost their son. It is terrible that he was not screened out by his sponsor who invited him. God bless his family and the terrible guilt they must feel. However in my experience I never felt like I was part of a "Hazing". I went to College Prep in New England area, trust me I knew what it felt like. As far as the question of competency of the MKP members that were running the event, I have never come across a larger group of truely compassionate people. Being that I was sponsored by a local Houston man, I knew absolutely nothing of anyone, except for my sponsor. I trusted his judgement that I would be safe. Being a warrior in life is all about learning to walk in peace in a world that is full of danger. Nothing in this world is guaranteed. Bad things happen to good people all of the time. Terrible things happen to people in the offices of licensed therapists. Doctors kill more people than guns. The statistics speak for themselves. We cannot outlaw doctors merely because there are bad ones, can we? People must learn to be accountable for themselves and not believe that they must be taken care of by their government or by their parents. Hurricane Katrina was a tragic example of this. What has happened to our sense of community among our fellow citizens? A bit of compassion for each other, a random act of kindness each day, can make the world a better place. That is what MKP teaches.

William Greene Comma Billy · 10/06/2007 7:08:22 PM

damn, from all the comments this group is a bit bigger than I imagined. I think if MKP had responded to the interviewer, they could have maybe gotten a better take on both sides of the story, but alas, they didn't seem too willing to talk about much. Pretty damn strange, but whatever floats your boat. Touch your neighbor's dick! Priceless. I would have been out long before that, but man, that woudl have definitely made me run for the hills. Plus, I never go anywhere where I don't have an "out", I take my car or definitely have a trusted ride. May your jimmies hang low and graze the ground. Pass the wood cock!

T.J. Smith · 10/06/2007 7:51:30 PM

I was very disappointed with this highly-sensational article on the Warrior weekend, starting with the title "Naked Men." The out-of-context description of the activities of the weekend does a great disservice to this work. Consider how a Sunday at a Catholic Mass might sound, with a similar hack job. People were kneeling and chanting before a man wearing a skirt. They blew choking smoke around the room. The man in the skirt gave people human flesh to eat and blood to drink. He then doused an infant with water, producing screams of terror. You get the idea.

Anonymous · 10/06/2007 9:00:01 PM

I did the weekend in 1995. My experience was very different from what is described in this article. I was in a 12 step program before I went, but no one from that program pressured me to attend. My therapist suggested it after a couple of years of group therapy. When I got there I was surprised to see a bunch of men I knew from 12 step staffing the weekend and working at the lodge. When they say it isn't psychotherapy, I think they are correct. The weekend is a true initiation, in the ancient "joining the tribe" or "becoming a man" sense. Anyone interested in attending probably ought to research how those work. I had been looking for something like that since high school, so I welcomed the New Warrior experience. It was scary, difficult and challenging, but I felt safe the entire time I was there. Men are free to leave at any point. No one was going to kill anyone. I later staffed a weekend and saw how hard they work to keep the men safe. I was told to carpool so I would be with other initiates for the ride home, not because of a lack of parking. That gave us time to talk about the experience and bond. Our carpool group was in the integration group, so we kept seeing each other for the next few months. When it was over, my deep fear of other men was gone. In its place was compassion, trust and love. It changed my life for the better. Maybe New Warrior has changed since I did the weekend. I could see the potential for for that after I did the weekend. They employed many of the same techniques used to indoctrinate people into cults. They lacked a charismatic leader and some other aspects of cults, but the potential for abuse was there. Maybe they really harmed Michael Scinto. I hope not, because it would be sad if men no longer had the opportunity to do this work.

Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 10:27:24 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM: If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm. I imagine for the same reasons that I have to sign lengthy agreements when my kids play soccer. Or when I sign up for a site on the Internet or download some free software. Have you read any of those "Terms of Service?!" I saw the form MKP requires on a website and it's frankly a lot more straightforward and shorter than many such documents. It also makes it clear what a man is responsible for, e.g., that and other MKP documents make it clear that if a man believes he is unstable or ill-prepared for an intensive men's weekend that he should not attend. At least that's my reading of it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM: It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men. Real men do not need Warrior Weekends. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you Judge Anonymous! You seem to have reached some very confident conclusions based on your thorough research of the organization. Seriously, what do you base your accusations on? What evidence exists that "income tax evasion" is a motive? How does the law define "illegal group therapy" and how did (does) MKP violate it? And on what do you base your assertion that men who attend the MKP weekend are "immature" unlike "real" men like yourself? Have you actually met and talked with men in MKP?

Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 10:58:55 PM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul G wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 08:49AM ... The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think this is a fair accusation to make. It's really not different from the accusations the author of the HP article makes. Neither your (Paul G's) nor the reporter's accusations are supported by convincing evidence and they are both biased. You *assume* that Mr. Scinto's parents caused a good portion of his troubles but you have no evidence upon which to base such a conclusion. May I suggest that perhaps you are "projecting" your own experience onto Mr. Scinto and his parents? Also, talk to a few people who have had a family member commit suicide before you make such assumptions. I know three friends who have lost a family member to suicide and they have each experienced tremendous guilt about what they could have done differently to (in their mind) prevent their loved one's suicide. However, as each of my three friends progressed through therapy and/or support groups, as they prayed and talked with their minister or rabbi, as they talked with friends, they came to see that the suicide was not their fault. It was a choice their loved one made and that person is the only one to "blame" if one is inclined to assign blame at all. None of my friends chose that option; they each came to the conclusion that the "blame game" was an understandable attempt to find a focus for their anger and overwhelming sadness but that ultimately it primarily served to freeze their emotional anguish. Although having some relief from the relentless waves of grinding grief felt good for awhile they eventually recognized that they were simply using blame to forestall the deep, all-consuming sadness that they felt. Once they let go of the need to blame they did indeed experience several weeks during which waves of suffocating sorrow nearly immobilized them. But, as they let the sadness flow, they gradually found themselves accepting the loss of their loved one. They forgave him (in all three instances it was a male family member) and they forgave themselves.

ABC · 10/07/2007 11:26:03 AM

Very poor reporting. No context is offered for the retreat items mentioned (which the reporter should have been able to give if he does indeed have the protocols). He says Scott Cole is the executive director--he hasn't been nearly two years. He bases most of his criticism on folks from Rick Ross's webpage, without asking what their own biases might be. He never asks what things Michael Scinto might have been diagnosed with before the Warrior weekend. I went. I could offer criticisms of the event, but I don't think that could be done fairly in this context. On the Rick Ross forums, anyone who mentions anything positive about their experience is shouted down. As to the "Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer"--this is something that happens at the end, which is clearly a moment where the leaders poke fun at much of the whole weekend. That seems healthy, to me. As to one commenter's suggestion that people learn psychotherapy in a weekend--no. Initiates are invited to come back and staff, but it takes many staffings, and much additional training, before anyone is put in a position of leader. There's no talk in this article about why people might go on this; what are the needs of male initiation today, what are men looking for, how might a man seek integrity with himself, accountability with his brothers, overcoming wounds from fractured relationships with fathers. As to secret rituals--what about those initiation rites done by Masons and the Knights of Columbus. Ask the latter about their use of a human skull and bones. Ask about their commitment to secrecy.

Josh Harben · 10/08/2007 9:05:18 AM

I am saddened by this man's suicide and grieve for his loved ones and family. I have been involved with MKP for 5 years and it has been a positive force in my life; helping me to me the man I want to be and live a life of integrity. The weekend is meant to "shake things up", but the portrayal in this article is a clear distortion, especially the supposedly coercive aspects. It also fails to mention the very positive impact that the community continues to have long after we have finished the weekend initiation, which only lasts for 2 days.

° ° °

[DannyB II]

Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.

Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.

Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however!  

Ursie, that would be one, as in (1) professional. Please, stop misleading folks here. I would post the actual professional person associated with this post but I think everyone has got it by now.
Thanks, for the debate but this one is wrapped up.

[Ursus]

Comments left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 21-40:


Mark Jones · 10/08/2007 9:52:33 AM

I am very sorry for the man's family. At the same time, it is truly unfortunate and irresponsible to blame the Warriors for this man's death. Obviously, he was a very troubled man--and the Warriors failed to save him from his demons. This is not to say it is the Warriors' fault that he is dead. I suppose one could go back over the past few months and find many people and experiences that adversely affected him. Are we to sue all of them for his death?

Mark Jones · 10/08/2007 10:02:00 AM

I was greatly disappointed by this article. The writer's sensationalist treatment of the rituals show exactly why they are secret. Taken out of context, they seem bizarre, cultish, and even nutty. In their proper context, they are part of a deeply moving and meaningful experience.

Susan Dancy · 10/08/2007 11:26:36 AM

My heartfelt sympathy and condolences to the family and friends of Michael Scinto. I know many men who have participated in the MKP weekend and, for them, it has been a life-affirming experience. Although I agree with some of the concerns raised in Mr. Vogel's, I found the majority of the comments biased, exagerated and ignorant of the reality of the process. The men I know who are involved with MKP are not perfect. But they are sincere. It is not a cult. It is a community.

Susan Dancy · 10/08/2007 12:42:09 PM

"Michael Scinto was literally scared to death." Yellow journalism at its worst. Shame on you, Houston Press.

Susan Dancy · 10/08/2007 12:42:11 PM

"Michael Scinto was literally scared to death." Yellow journalism at its worst. Shame on you, Houston Press.

anonymous · 10/08/2007 6:55:04 PM

Too much opportunity for blackmail. Either overt or covert.

Derrick & Shelley · 10/08/2007 8:24:21 PM

After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served.

Frances · 10/08/2007 10:41:08 PM

Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door.

Derek Dujardin · 10/09/2007 8:58:14 AM

This "Mary" has never been to a weekend and therefore has very distorted view of it. I can't believe the Houston Press would run one-source story. For the vast majority of the men who go through the weekend, it's quite thearputic. The fact that her son is off drugs is something she should be grateful for and she doesn't seem to want to give any credit to this fact that perhaps the weekend worked for him. I've been to one weekend and have staffed another. The weekend is not intended to make your comfortable. It's intended to push you to make a breakthrough, and breakthroughs are never comfortable, change is never comfortable. The comment about guys grabbing each other's dicks in the sweat lodge is an absolute fabrication. Trust me, if that kind of shit was happening every weekend, to over 4000 men around the world, do you really think men would invite other men to such a weekend? Do you think this organization would be around for 23 years? Use your head.

ABC · 10/09/2007 9:58:23 AM

So, you folks who are so impressed with this fellow's research ... Why didn't he discover that Scott Cole hasn't been executive director for nearly two years? Why didn't he discover that Mel Taylor isn't merely a member, but is chairman of the board of the Mankind Project, Houston? These seem to be basic facts. He missed them.

Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 8:43:19 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Derrick & Shelley wrote on October 8, 2007 @ 08:24PM: After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you base your assumptions and judgments on one source of information, which several readers found to be quite biased, do you really believe you are on solid footing? Two "facts" in your comment are disputable: 1) The average age of MKP members is probably about 40, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that the organization "preys on young men." (Although I'm sure many of them would be flattered to be called young!) 2) None of the men who I know in MKP (six of them) had "emotional and physical problems" prior to participating in the MKP weekend--at least no more than any other average human being! You make it sound as if MKP members are lurking around homeless shelters, mental health facilities, and rehabs trying to recruit members! In addition, it is my understanding that many MKP members who are also recovering addicts/alcoholics recommend that a man have at least one year of sobriety/clean time before participating in the MKP weekend. Of course, a year of sobriety is no guarantee, as was unfortunately the case with Mr. Scinto, but it does suggest that MKP does *not* seek to exploit a man's vulnerability. They aren't stupid; they realize that if they accepted a bunch of guys with severe mental illness that they would open themselves up for criticism and lawsuits. That's why they screen applicants. As I said earlier, maybe they need to modify the screening procedure--I don't know--but to assume that they are exploiting men is way off base. However, I can see how you got that impression from Mr. Vogel's sensationalized, one-sided article.

Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 9:17:48 PM

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frances wrote on October 8, 2007 @ 10:41PM: Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do you know it was balanced? Have you talked with people who found the article to be very biased, to contain several errors, to have relied heavily on a discredited "cult expert," etc.? You also state, "... even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death ..." How do you know? I don't think you realize how difficult it is to evaluate and accurately predict if a person will commit suicide. The vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts do not act on them. The vast majority of recovering alcoholics/addicts do not commit suicide. The vast majority of individuals suffering from depression do not commit suicide. It is true that each of those three factors increase the risk of suicide but even if a person possesses all three risk factors the odds are much, much greater that he will *not* commit suicide that that he will kill himself. Another way to look at this issue is if we involuntarily committed every person with suicidal thoughts, alcohol and other drug problems, and/or depression our nation's entire economy would come to a grinding halt because tens of millions of citizens would be locked up on psych wards. Given how difficult it is to evaluate and predict if a person will commit suicide, how can we expect an organization like MKP to determine with 100% accuracy who will and will not commit suicide after attending an MKP weekend? If we were to demand such a predictive accuracy, then shouldn't we expect if of all organizations? For example, shouldn't churches and other houses of worship be required to screen all people who attend their services or become members to determine their suicide risk? Now, I recognize that some of you will object to the comparison by stating that churches don't charge money for their services. That's true to a point, i.e., generally people aren't officially turned away because of a lack of donations. On the other hand, I don't know what your church is like but I don't know many church goers, myself included, who aren't frequently asked for money--from the pulpit, with the collection plate, from the fund raising committee, for the capital campaign, to benefit the scholarship fund, to support the national office, etc. So I'd hardly call churches "free!" Others might object to my comparison claiming that churches aren't a "personal growth organization" like MKP. My reply to that argument would be: "Really?" I thought that personal growth, of which spiritual/religious growth is a big part, was one of the main benefits of church involvement. It is for me and I think is for most sincere church members. (Of course, there are always the "see and be seen" crowd who dress to impress, drum up new business for themselves, pay lip service to the true meaning of their faith, and are non-stop gossips but that's thankfully the minority of religious persons.)

Michael · 10/10/2007 10:30:11 AM

I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them. My heart goes out to the Scintos and I pray for them and wish them the best of luck. Please have faith, believe and do not pay attention to all the rude people, but know that there are people out here who do care. Nice job, Vogel....

Susan Dancy · 10/10/2007 10:58:31 AM

"I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them." _______________________________________________________________________________________ I have sympathy for the Scinto family and am greatly saddened by the terrible emotional pain they have been through. My comment is that the MKP is an organization of men who, for the most part, seek to make postiive changes, not only in their own lives, but in the world. It is not some secretive cult trying to lure unsuspecting and vunerable men into its evil clutches. It is an organization of men supporting other men in personal growth, intergrity and accountability. The process of the weekend is not about secrecy. It is about confidentiality. Maybe after this tragedy and the publicity around it, some of those "secrets" will be revealed. Will it take some of the magic and mystery away from the experience? Probably. Will it diminish the good work these men are doing? I pray not.

anonymous · 10/10/2007 2:18:03 PM

I attended a party where most of the men were members of the mkp. I've never seen so many disfunctional men in one place before. They seem to be the ones that don't quite fit into normal society. The mkp is the blind leading the blind. They can be summed up in two words....fruit loops.

Anonymous · 10/10/2007 3:51:38 PM

Warriors.... COME OUT AND PLAAAAAYYYYYY! CAAAANNNNN YYYYYOOOOUUUUU DIG IT!!!!!

anonymous · 10/10/2007 6:43:50 PM

I find it fascinating that Joey Johansen has nothing better to do than comment on every f%$#ing posting. Get a freakin' life.

Bob · 10/10/2007 7:26:06 PM

Chris, I thought I'd also post this here. I hope you don't mind. "Bob" here. I am one of the men Mr.Chris Vogel contacted. I gave him permission to share my experience with MKP and my recovery program. Years ago my wife "Cathy" and I thought we had made friends with another couple in recovery. We all spent time together. Good times and bad. That all went away when I started to express my concerns about that Warrior Weekend. Yes I got information off the internet. But who doesn't these days ? I also got back-up information from human sources. I was told I wasn't ready for the Weekend. It wasn't for me. But I was also told that I had wounds and Shadow Work to do. A lot to do by their count. I was angry but two people I love dearly, my wife and my recovery sponsor made comments to me that snapped me right out of my self-centeredness and help put me back on track with my program. From my wife one day: "Why are you angry ? You're still alive and sober." From my sponsor: "Tradition number 10" It reads " Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside matters; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy" Our middle son has come back in to his recovery program. Today, he is alive and sober. I can't imagine a child of mine killing themself regardless of the reasons. Our hearts and prayers go out to Michael's family. Warm regards, "Bob"

Tim · 10/10/2007 9:59:31 PM

I was not there on the Houston weekend, so I cannot speak for them; however, I can say that of all the men that I know in MKP, they all live their lives from their integrity and are committed to improving their lives and their communities. Experiencing the NWTA was one of the most powerful things I have done in my life. An issue that had plagued me for 13 years was removed that weekend and has allowed me to live an incredibly joy filled life. Is the weekend intense? Yes it is. And it was because it was intense that enabled my healing to happen. Is it perfect? No. Is there anything I would change? Yes. I had a man on my weekend joke about what was going to happen during the next exercise (his statement was not true, and I felt he was just trying to screw with my head). I have read the MKP protocols and they are about creating a safe space so that men feel safe enough to look at the issues that plague their life and I want to challenge any staff men to adhere to them and not to put in their sideways comments that they think are funny, because we never know the effect that those comments will have on another human being. That being said, I would still recommend it to any recovery minded person who has been on his recovery path for at least 2 or 3 years. I would like to add that I do not believe that any one single event would cause a person to commit suicide, that it would take years of feeling that one was in a hopeless situation to come to that point. I would at this point like to say that that does not diminish how his family feels and that my thoughts and prayers are with them through this incredibly trying time.

Reversable Goldfish 10/11/2007 12:54:36 AM

I just completed (10/07) the Gateway Weekend of the New Warrior Training, the weekend for mostly gay, bi & questioning men, though hetero men also attend. It was a traumatic weekend for me. The methods of MKP are not for everyone. Yet 26 of the 27 men who attended seemed to have a meaningful powerful weekend. The description of the weekend in the article is basically accurate, though I didn't see or experience everything mentioned. Out of context or not, it paints a general picture that's more accurate than not. I could have left if I wanted and felt no pressure to stay. I wanted to understand what they kept promising would be revealed. I didn't. Oh, and I didn't have my car. During my time of prolonged physical and psychological discomfort, I wondered if I would need therapy to recover from the weekend. Now, safe at home, I don't think I will. I came to the weekend with reasonable skills at knowing my limits, asking for what I want, and setting boundaries. Many men attend these type of events because they don't have these skills. Articles like this are difficult. It focuses on a few bad cases and then talks about a few good cases, like 50% like it and 50% don't, but that's not really the case. The problem is that the container that the MKP creates to do its work can't contain (or perhaps even recognize) the problems when they come up. They aren't set up for the exceptional situation. The MKP could be right for some men. It was not right for me. If it doesn't sound right to you, don't go. There's better stuff out there. I am discouraging most of my friends from going. (As a side note: what's pagan about being in the woods naked? It's like saying Christians like war.)

° ° °

[DannyB II]

duplicate

[DannyB II]

Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.

Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.

Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however!  

Sorry Chris Vogels, your main man for this article is loosing precious ground.
It would have helped if you, would have done some investigation on your own. I'm thinking???
This gentlemen (Joey Johansen) covers the article pretty well, in my opinion anyway.
Your professionals, have you been able to locate one yet, that even knows "MKP" exists.

Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 8:43:19 PM

Derrick & Shelley wrote:
On October 8, 2007 @ 08:24PM: After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served.  
Joey Johansen wrote:
 If you base your assumptions and judgments on one source of information, which several readers found to be quite biased, do you really believe you are on solid footing? Two "facts" in your comment are disputable: 1) The average age of MKP members is probably about 40, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that the organization "preys on young men." (Although I'm sure many of them would be flattered to be called young!) 2) None of the men who I know in MKP (six of them) had "emotional and physical problems" prior to participating in the MKP weekend--at least no more than any other average human being! You make it sound as if MKP members are lurking around homeless shelters, mental health facilities, and rehabs trying to recruit members! In addition, it is my understanding that many MKP members who are also recovering addicts/alcoholics recommend that a man have at least one year of sobriety/clean time before participating in the MKP weekend. Of course, a year of sobriety is no guarantee, as was unfortunately the case with Mr. Scinto, but it does suggest that MKP does *not* seek to exploit a man's vulnerability. They aren't stupid; they realize that if they accepted a bunch of guys with severe mental illness that they would open themselves up for criticism and lawsuits. That's why they screen applicants. As I said earlier, maybe they need to modify the screening procedure--I don't know--but to assume that they are exploiting men is way off base. However, I can see how you got that impression from Mr. Vogel's sensationalized, one-sided article.


Joey Johansen · 10/09/2007 9:17:48 PM

- Frances wrote:
On October 8, 2007 @ 10:41PM: Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door.
Joey Johansen wrote:
How do you know it was balanced? Have you talked with people who found the article to be very biased, to contain several errors, to have relied heavily on a discredited "cult expert," etc.? You also state, "... even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death ..." How do you know? I don't think you realize how difficult it is to evaluate and accurately predict if a person will commit suicide. The vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts do not act on them. The vast majority of recovering alcoholics/addicts do not commit suicide. The vast majority of individuals suffering from depression do not commit suicide. It is true that each of those three factors increase the risk of suicide but even if a person possesses all three risk factors the odds are much, much greater that he will *not* commit suicide that that he will kill himself. Another way to look at this issue is if we involuntarily committed every person with suicidal thoughts, alcohol and other drug problems, and/or depression our nation's entire economy would come to a grinding halt because tens of millions of citizens would be locked up on psych wards. Given how difficult it is to evaluate and predict if a person will commit suicide, how can we expect an organization like MKP to determine with 100% accuracy who will and will not commit suicide after attending an MKP weekend? If we were to demand such a predictive accuracy, then shouldn't we expect if of all organizations? For example, shouldn't churches and other houses of worship be required to screen all people who attend their services or become members to determine their suicide risk? Now, I recognize that some of you will object to the comparison by stating that churches don't charge money for their services. That's true to a point, i.e., generally people aren't officially turned away because of a lack of donations. On the other hand, I don't know what your church is like but I don't know many church goers, myself included, who aren't frequently asked for money--from the pulpit, with the collection plate, from the fund raising committee, for the capital campaign, to benefit the scholarship fund, to support the national office, etc. So I'd hardly call churches "free!" Others might object to my comparison claiming that churches aren't a "personal growth organization" like MKP. My reply to that argument would be: "Really?" I thought that personal growth, of which spiritual/religious growth is a big part, was one of the main benefits of church involvement. It is for me and I think is for most sincere church members. (Of course, there are always the "see and be seen" crowd who dress to impress, drum up new business for themselves, pay lip service to the true meaning of their faith, and are non-stop gossips but that's thankfully the minority of religious persons.)

[Anne Bonney]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... z0zQWWIQOx


My (very) weird weekend with the naked woodland warriors who travel to remote England to 'reclaim their masculinity'

By Tom Mitchelson
Last updated at 1:53 AM on 13th March 2010


How our man found himself with 65 naked men chanting, drumming - and screaming their rage against women to 'reclaim' their lost masculinity...

The temperature has plunged to freezing. I am deep in a remote English woodland outside Exeter.

I have been blindfolded and I am standing, holding hands, with a long line of men - who, until about 24 hours ago, I'd never met before.

Together, we are stumbling through the scrub as beating tribal drums guide our way. Oh yes, and we are naked. Totally naked.


Wild man: Tom Mitchelson embraces his inner warrior


Abruptly, my blindfold is ripped off and I see we have been led to a shadowy candle-lit room. There are about 65 of us in a double horseshoe formation.

This is a ceremony where we are to become 'new warriors'. And then the dancing begins.

I wish I were somewhere else. Anywhere else. So why on earth am I here?

I have signed up to the ManKind Project, an all-male group boasting 1,700 UK members that aims to release men's 'inner warrior' and reclaim their masculinity. I am about to graduate from their New Warrior training course.

It was launched in 1985 in the U.S. by a former marine, Rich Tosi, a therapist, Bill Kauth, and a university professor, Ron Hering, under the guise of providing 'educational services'.

They claim to be a not-for-profit company and nearly 40,000 men have attended their courses worldwide.

But things haven't been going well. Five years ago one of their recruits, Michael Scinto, made a complaint to the Madison County Sheriff in Texas that he'd been abused during a traumatic weekend with the project.

He subsequently committed suicide and his relatives filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the ManKind Project, which eventually settled out of court and claimed it would change certain of its practices.

I had also been tipped off by a number of concerned wives - who'd noticed disturbing changes in their husbands' behaviour since attending one of ManKind's UK weekends away.


Tom signed up to the ManKind Project, an all-male group boasting 1,700 UK members that aims to release men's 'inner warrior' and reclaim their masculinity


My aim is to go undercover to find out just how serious these allegations against them are - or whether they're just a bunch of misguided men who need a break from their women.

My first experience of the organisation is not pleasant. After signing up online to attend their initiation weekend, I am sent an intimidating amount of paperwork - including a confidentiality agreement. Of course, they have no idea I'm a journalist, and it's costing me £500 for the privilege.

Everything I read from them is baffling non-speak. They claim the weekend is a 'process of initiation and self-examination that is crucial to the development of a healthy and mature male self'.

They claim they help move men away from the 'comforting embrace' of their mother - something, on the face of it, some wives might even encourage. Then I am told I will 'confront' my 'dependence on women', to help me move into the 'masculine kingdom'.

To be honest, it all sounds absolutely ludicrous. But nothing as ludicrous as what I discover when I arrive at the training centre in the West Country.

As I enter, I am asked to line up with my fellow recruits and we are ordered to 'observe the sacred silence'.

This is all before we've been shown to where we're staying. It's all rather bizarre, as they begin a strange game where I am asked to walk up to a man who stares at me, with black camouflage paint on his face. The process is repeated again, and again.

They claim they help move men away from the 'comforting embrace' of their mother - something, on the face of it, some wives might even encourage

Then I am ordered into a Dutch barn, where yet another confidentiality agreement is thrust in front of me, forbidding me to mention anything that happens over the weekend.

They seem to have a paranoid fear of anything getting out. This, I suppose, should have set even more alarm bells ringing.

Next, I am shouted at to hand over all the food I've been ordered to bring - any food, but enough for three men. I feel as if I'm on a military boot camp, although I suspect most of the participants are really just accountants from Slough.

We are all told that we are on a 'journey' and we 'will never be the same again'. Then we are led into a darkened room, where more people shout random words at us.

I seem to have wondered into a Marx Brothers film, but without the laughs.

The unnamed men, dressed in black with their black face paint, want me to hand over my mobile phone, watch, books and food. I do, but I am subjected to a complete search of my bag and my body.

They discover half a bottle of rum, notebook and pen. The faux commando is livid. He shrieks: 'Do you have problems following orders?' I nod guiltily, stunning him into silence.

We are directed to another dark room, where all the new recruits and I sit for more than an hour. In silence. At this point, I'm just wondering what on earth is going to happen next.

Suddenly, three men burst in, give me a bandana for a blindfold and take me to a place where drums are beating. I remove the blindfold to see I am surrounded by what I can only describe as the Men In Black.


Many of the men in the group talk about their relationships, work and feelings of anger and regret


A leader holding a wooden staff decorated with feathers rambles on about the mission of the weekend, using the pompous jargon that would later become very familiar: words like 'shadow', 'warriors', 'masculine', 'commitment' and 'responsibility'.

He tells us how to be a man. It's hard to take from a man wearing face paint, carrying a feathered stick.

Having finished his speech, he calls upon men at random to stand up and explain why they were there. Hard to say why, but people are starting to open their hearts.

One man cries as he answers questions about his unhappy marriage. The guards stand in a threatening circle around us, staring aggressively in silence.

I am starting to feel very uncomfortable. When I signed up for the course, they told me I couldn't drive there because there was a shortage of car-parking spaces.

Instead, I was told I should join the others on their minibus to travel several miles from the station, so it is with a sinking feeling that I realise I am stranded.

Many of the men talk about their relationships, work and feelings of anger and regret. 'Sharing', they call it. They all appeared sincere and open. Not buttoned up and repressed, but here-it-is, take-it-all, heart-on-my-sleeve types.

It is here that I learn a piece of warrior etiquette. When a brother 'shares', the correct response is to raise both hands as if surrendering and waggle your hands. At the same time, you say ' Ahho'. At first, I mishear and say 'Ahoy'.

Until the early hours of the morning, we engage in a series of exercises. I have to tell one man what makes me a man, and then wait while he tells me what makes him one, too. We are asked to describe how we fail to stand up to women.



When Tom signed up for the course, they told him he couldn't drive there because there was a shortage of car-parking spaces


'They're always getting at you to put the seat down on the loo,' one of the staff men explains by way of example. For a supposed female reign of terror, this seems a weirdly banal example.

We are told to explain to each other what type of man we are. One of my 'brothers' tells me he is a liar and cheat. I suspect he means he has had affairs.

Another tells how he feels worthless, a third man explains he doesn't know how to control his anger, and another tells me his wife won't let him ride his bike.

It's not long before the blindfold is back on and we are asked to imagine we're in an African village. To assist this illusion, the Men In Black rattle pots, flick water at us and make vocal noises to represent a bustling settlement.

It's not entirely convincing. We are asked to imagine capturing a wild man who terrorises villagers and cage him. We then have to set him free.

We have been asked to visualise meeting an animal along the way. This becomes our 'warrior' name. And I spend the rest of the time with Mighty Condor, Courageous Wolf and Intrepid Panther.

It is odd that no one opts for a sheep, wombat or guinea pig. I, however, become Relaxed Penguin. Oh Lord. Now I've written that, they can identify their Judas.

It's very late. I am tired and hungry and even my sleeping bag in a freezing yurt with strangers seems attractive. It's not. I don't sleep because, a couple of hours later, the rhythmic banging of drums begins.

A man appears at the door: 'Men, we have work to do.' We are ordered to strip and line up for a cold shower. While each man steps under the water, the others watch and count to 60.

I manage to get a few words with some of the participants and they are mostly between the ages of 35 and 45.

They are not all - as I'd supposed - saddos. They work in careers such as banking, IT, education and business and all strike me as intelligent, articulate and enthusiastic about their participation in the project. The majority seem to feel that their lives are not going as they wish.

After breakfast (a handful of nuts and a spoonful of porridge) we spend the morning sharing how we feel. We roar like lions. We talk to our childhood selves and watch the staff men act out scenes such as where one man says yes and the other says no.

Over and over. It was like watching a section of a Pinter play performed by nine-year-olds.

Then it is time for what I found one of the most disturbing parts of the weekend - where we are effectively 'broken free' of our emotional past.

We are divided into three groups, each of which has a so-called 'sacred carpet', and for about an hour each man is subjected to emotionally manipulative questioning, on the carpet, that probes into his past.

Some of the staff are very skilled at reading visual signs of hidden emotion. At times, three inquisitors demand the answers to questions that eventually leave a man weeping and apparently broken.

This is happening simultaneously on all three mats. At times, it is impossible to hear what was happening on my own mat because of the wails and screams from the other groups.
I feel as if I'm on a military boot camp, although I suspect most of the participants are really just accountants from Slough

The majority of the men who participate in this spectacle positively welcome this treatment. Others appear less keen. The objective seems to be to provoke a violent reaction from the person in the circle.

One man of about 40 has an issue with his mother. He felt she had treated him badly when he was younger.

A staff man is chosen to represent the mother and, while other men stand in front of him, he is goaded to confront her by pushing through a human barrier.

Instead, he flies into an uncontrolled rage. Staff become panicked and shout 'safety' as they try to immobilise him. If these staff men have any professional training, I am unaware of it.

The qualification they seem to share is that they are graduates of the course I am now on. ManKind deny that any therapy takes place. They call it training.

Another man sobs as he is told to act out beating his stepfather and mother to death. Again, he feels that they ignored him as a child and treated him with disdain.

A third man is pinned to the floor by six men and has to wrestle his way out from under a blanket, cheered on by the watching men. It is extremely disturbing to watch.

Many of the men seem to feel they suffered mental or physical abuse from their parents. They all appear to be functioning in day-to-day life, but these horrors appear easily released under the persistent and intimate questioning of their inquisitors.

I make up a story about feeling guilty for hurting a former girlfriend. I give no specific examples, but feign deep upset. They suggest my behaviour had started in childhood. I tell them it hadn't.


Deprived of food and sleep and subjected to the raging emotions of people around him, Tom is instructed to strip, put his blindfold back on and hold the hand of the man next to him


They talk of regressing me. I don't know if these amateur psychiatrists could achieve that or not, but they opt for getting me to wrench the guilt from my stomach by wrestling a rope up through my legs being held by four men.

Most of the men I speak to afterwards seem delighted by this experience. In fact, this is a point at which some men seem to embrace the Warrior Brotherhood.

To me it seems like a way of initiating people into a kind of cult. This session is clearly designed to be the pivotal moment in the weekend.

Now comes the time when we are awarded our warrior's insignia.

Deprived of food and sleep and subjected to the raging emotions of people around me, I am instructed to strip, put my blindfold back on and hold the hand of the man next to me.

It is now we begin the walk in the woods that leads to that candle-lit ceremony where we become New Warriors.

As I am led, blindfolded, naked and freezing, I am strangely resigned to this new, weird way of life. The other men in the group are all relaxed about such a journey.

In the candle-lit room, we are led by hand around the circle of men. Our animal names are called and all the men cheer.

With horribly vivid images playing in my mind of pot-bellies, male genitalia and saggy bums, I return to my yurt and sleep for a couple of hours.
The cult-like intensity with which some of my fellow warriors converted to the brotherhood astonished me

Morning arrives and, after standing in a field 'reclaiming my paternal name', we begin 'sharing' again.

At this point, we're sprayed with burning sage and instructed - naked again - to get in the sweat lodge. This is a tent heated by burning coals.

It is pitch black inside and we are told to shout blessings, make noise, howl, quote poems and sing songs. We are finally given a meal consisting of the food we brought, and then we say our goodbyes by silently staring at each staff man.

The participants hug one another and proclaim their love to their fellow brothers. They give blessings and thank each other for the 'strength' and 'joy' they have received.

I get home and close the door behind me. I have never felt so relieved to be back in the real world. It takes me two full days to get the strange mantras and patterns of speech out of my head.

The overriding message of the course seemed confused: That we were suppressed warriors and had become emasculated; that we had to reconnect with the wild man; and to get in touch with our feelings. It was 21st-century New Age meets Neanderthal man.

The cult-like intensity with which some of my fellow warriors converted to the brotherhood astonished me.

I had been given a chilling lesson in how easily - and how fast - the kind of men I rub shoulders with every day can alter: can become aggressive and subservient by turns; and gripped by something strange.

And something else shocked me. This was an organisation that aimed to tell me how to be a man.

Yet not once during that weird and frightening weekend did I ever hear it acknowledged that we men share a world. With women.


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[DannyB II]

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