Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Hyde Schools

Re: HAPA

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Dr. Acula:
::unhappy::

DannyB II:

--- Quote ---Felice wrote:
sPAMMY.....i CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE.
SURELY THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE WHO WOULD PUT A BULLET IN YOU.
i KNOW i WOULD  ::evil::
--- End quote ---


 Ok, so we had the tragedy of Tim and Sharon with her kids. They were heading home from your house. Maybe one day you will discuss exactly what drugs were taken. Second we know that you are a diturbed little brat that never got her own way. Now wants to make the world pay for it.
Felice your about as consequental as PODK's, maybe he should travel to your hellhole in Wisconsin. You two could perform exorcisms on one another.
Felice just because the "life" you made for yourself "sucks", doesn't mean you have to take it out on me.

Ursus:
Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.

Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.

Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however!  :D

Ursus:
Comments left for the above article, "Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto" (by Chris Vogel, Oct 4 2007, Houston Press), #s 1-20:


S Byers · 10/04/2007 5:39:27 AM
Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what will be going on. And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.Chris · 10/04/2007 10:45:53 AM
Chris Vogel, great article! I suggest you look into the EST (Ernhard Seminars Training) and Sterling Institute backgrounds of the founders of MKP.Rory Bowman · 10/04/2007 4:33:54 PM
Any humane person can have nothing but compassion for the Scintos on the loss of their son. That they wish to blame some outside group for this is understandable. Goodness knows that Texan men with drug and alcohol problems have never used guns or drugs to harm themselves before, and I am certain that this lawsuit will solve everyone's problems forever, as MKP failed to. If only young Michael had found Jesus, the way my own brother did the morning when HE killed himself.Mark ANDERSON · 10/05/2007 6:21:26 AM
I am so sorry for this family but they should not try and blame the MKP for their sons problems. My experience was one of the best things I have ever done in my recovery and in my life. I could leave at any time I wanted and one guy did leave on our weekend. That was fine. There was never anything sexual and it was a very healing weekend.Jim Stinson · 10/05/2007 10:07:04 AM
From a completely outside perspective, the author appears to be very biased and not too interested in reporting anything fair or balanced. That said, if MKP is this horrible organization doing all these awful things, the question must be asked - and a glaring omissing from this story imho - "to what end are they doing this?" Monetary gain? World domination? Sadistic thrills? And where is the logical comparison, in this report, to other institutions where men go through extremem physical and emtional stress during some for of extended training / initiation ritual .. say .. basic training for the military? Are parents suing the Marines for damage done to their sons during basic? Is the HoustonPress reporting it?H Lowenburg · 10/05/2007 2:45:44 PM
Because of the Mankind Project: I have reunited with my family, learned how to feel and express feelings, discover much about myself and I now have close friends that are men I can trust - something new for me. It is not the practice of psychology any more than any support group. It is about men being real with each other. It is about self-discovery. One of the guidelines that have always been emphasized every time I have been with MKP is that any man can pass. That includes leaving the weekend and I have seen men leave many times. I do not lie to or miss lead anyone about what goes on at New Warrior training. The men of this organization model compassion, integrity and citizenship for me. Chris, you really got this story wrong. I am proud to be part of sponsoring the first New Orleans New Warrior Training Adventure October 26, 2007. I judge that it important to the healing of my city.Joey Johansen · 10/05/2007 5:40:20 PM
My heart goes out to the parents of this man. I can't imagine many losses as painful as the suicide death of one's child. I can also understand wanting to blame someone else for his death; I would probably want to do the same, at least initially. Unfortunately, this man's parents have chosen to attack an organization that has helped tens of thousands of men around the world and which I seriously doubt had anything to do with their son's choice to kill himself. I am not a member of MKP but I have known several men who have derived tremendous benefit from the New Warrior Weekend and their involvement in the organization's weekly men's groups. I've talked with a few of these men about this article and to a man they report that none of the claims made by the parents or the reporter are true. For example, all but one indicated that they each knew of at least one man who left the weekend training within the first 24 hours. They never heard any threats being made and in fact remarked on the compassion and support given to the men who left by the MKP staff members. All the men also emphasized that it is made very clear to the participants that the weekend experience is not therapy and men that are seeing a psychologist or other mental health professional are told that they should talk about their experience with their therapist and should not change anything about their treatment. Getting back to the article itself, I can't help thinking that this newspaper reporter has decided to make a name for himself by crafting a sensational tale of injustice and abuse and selling it to the public as legitimate investigative journalism. The reporter's sensationalized prose reeks of bias and pandering to the public's fascination with cults. It seems to me that he has--rather skillfully--distorted events, omitted crucial information, ascribed motives to others without evidence, and packaged it all in a compelling narrative. I can't believe the Houston Press published such a biased article. But then again, I understand that many newspapers, desperate to remain solvent amid rapidly declining subscriber rolls, have chosen to go the way of the tabloids and focus on what sells: sensationalism and tall tales. In this case, the death of a man is agonizingly true but the cause as described in the parents' lawsuit and this piece of hack journalism will probably prove to be pure fiction. It's easy to point a finger at a men's organization that incorporates rites of passage and group processes that don't jibe with America's puritanical bent. It's much more difficult to understand the multiple factors that lead to a person's decision to kill himself and the steps friends and family can take to prevent suicide and to cope with the aftereffects if it has already happened.Colin · 10/05/2007 8:49:32 PM
I'm a Northern California New Warrior who did my weekend in September of 04. I'm involved with staffing, I-Groups, and supplemental trainings, and take great pride in the work I've done and the signicant changes I've seen in men as a part of this organization. I feel terrible for Michael Scinto and his family; I stand by the overwhelmingly positive attributes of the NWTA and MKP in general, however. A couple of things to remember: men's initiation rituals have been secret since their inception, thousands of years ago. There's power in it. I've never seen or experienced anything creepy or untoward going on in an NWTA. My brother killed himself nine years ago, after a long history of depression and substance abuse. What happened in the weeks leading up to his death probably had little to do with his overall decision. I believe this applies to the situation in this story. Also, as a journalist myself, I judge much of this article was written with hearsay, and as a member of an NWTA staff myself I believe some of it was misreported. My condolences to the man's family. I don't believe MKP was liable for his death, however.Anonymous · 10/06/2007 6:15:10 AM
If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality? It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men. Real men do not need Warrior Weekends.Sean · 10/06/2007 8:13:42 AM
MKP has flaws. The initiate weekend is certainly full of strange and uncomfortable experiences. (It supposed to be!)Before you participate you are certainly given the choice to leave. Once you begin the weekend you still can leave but the agreement is that you will be grilled before you do since you were asked prior and warned prior not to enter unless you have the desire, guts and the integrity to go through with it. There are many men like this who should not show-up at all and should have been screened out since they tend to diminish the weekend for other men who show-up to face the ugly realities of their lives- one of which is the anger men in this society carry daily in suffocation and addiction while vicariously experiencing it through movies and sport. This critique is comical- especially when we as a nation train thousands of young men to be killers in our armed forces, stupid unenlightened killers. I was one once. The rituals in the armed services are as strange as MKP's. But the objectives are very different. The US government doesn't seek to make one more aware, caring, compassionate and mature as MKP's goals seek- just the opposite, at much more than $650, that we pay for as taxpayers. This person would most likely have whined his way out of Marine boot camp too. He would have gone through hell if he had and nothing would be made of it. Please........Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 8:37:04 AM
Folks interested in this article and the ensuing debate should know that the Houston Press also has a blog where you can read and post comments: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/houstoned ... projec.php Joey[/list]
Paul G · 10/06/2007 8:49:24 AM
My heart goes out to the Scinto's--the parents of Michael Scinto who took his own life. I wish to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I went through the Mankind Project training in 2005. Prior to that, I had worked with a dozen or so therapists since the early 1970's to recover from years of abuse from a sadistic father--abuse allowed by an unstable mother. My work with MKP was an important part of healing from my past--healing which continues to this day. My experience of MKP has been nothing but positive. I felt safe during my weekend experience and indeed confronted many of my "demons" during the weekend in ways I could never have done in a therpist's office. I took many steps forward during that weekend and afterward. Certain kinds of healing cannot be achieved in a therapist's office but can more effectively be accomplished in the presence and power of a group of supportive men. It is natural for Michael Scinto's parents to want to blame someone or something else for the death of their son. Instead of, or in additon to suing MKP, I hope the parents will do the most difficult of tasks--examine themselves as parents and examine their roles in causing their son's pain, for Michael's pain began long before he ever even heard of Mankind Project. The Houston reporter should've investigate how Michael Scinto was parented. The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.Matthew Owens · 10/06/2007 3:06:57 PM
I attended an MKP initiation in 2003 in Madisonville, Tx. Yes you are greeted by men in dark robes and they take away your personal belongings. You are also warned in the what to bring flyer that this will occur. In the first hour of my initiation a young man cracked and decided to leave. He was not threatened in any way and all that the men who were leading the initiation asked of him in front of all to see was that he be accountable and share the truth as to why he would not continue. He then left without questions. Yes we were deprived of food until the feast. We were given granola and fruit, lots of water, and we were not limited on the quantity of either. It is called in other cultures, FASTING, nothing to be frightened of. We were forced to do things as part of the process, however never did I feel in danger of being hurt or losing my life. Out of my comfort zone, yes, however the entire weekend was about breaking out of the comfort zone, which is artificial, and tends to numb us all. I feel for the family that lost their son. It is terrible that he was not screened out by his sponsor who invited him. God bless his family and the terrible guilt they must feel. However in my experience I never felt like I was part of a "Hazing". I went to College Prep in New England area, trust me I knew what it felt like. As far as the question of competency of the MKP members that were running the event, I have never come across a larger group of truely compassionate people. Being that I was sponsored by a local Houston man, I knew absolutely nothing of anyone, except for my sponsor. I trusted his judgement that I would be safe. Being a warrior in life is all about learning to walk in peace in a world that is full of danger. Nothing in this world is guaranteed. Bad things happen to good people all of the time. Terrible things happen to people in the offices of licensed therapists. Doctors kill more people than guns. The statistics speak for themselves. We cannot outlaw doctors merely because there are bad ones, can we? People must learn to be accountable for themselves and not believe that they must be taken care of by their government or by their parents. Hurricane Katrina was a tragic example of this. What has happened to our sense of community among our fellow citizens? A bit of compassion for each other, a random act of kindness each day, can make the world a better place. That is what MKP teaches.William Greene Comma Billy · 10/06/2007 7:08:22 PM
damn, from all the comments this group is a bit bigger than I imagined. I think if MKP had responded to the interviewer, they could have maybe gotten a better take on both sides of the story, but alas, they didn't seem too willing to talk about much. Pretty damn strange, but whatever floats your boat. Touch your neighbor's dick! Priceless. I would have been out long before that, but man, that woudl have definitely made me run for the hills. Plus, I never go anywhere where I don't have an "out", I take my car or definitely have a trusted ride. May your jimmies hang low and graze the ground. Pass the wood cock!T.J. Smith · 10/06/2007 7:51:30 PM
I was very disappointed with this highly-sensational article on the Warrior weekend, starting with the title "Naked Men." The out-of-context description of the activities of the weekend does a great disservice to this work. Consider how a Sunday at a Catholic Mass might sound, with a similar hack job. People were kneeling and chanting before a man wearing a skirt. They blew choking smoke around the room. The man in the skirt gave people human flesh to eat and blood to drink. He then doused an infant with water, producing screams of terror. You get the idea.Anonymous · 10/06/2007 9:00:01 PM
I did the weekend in 1995. My experience was very different from what is described in this article. I was in a 12 step program before I went, but no one from that program pressured me to attend. My therapist suggested it after a couple of years of group therapy. When I got there I was surprised to see a bunch of men I knew from 12 step staffing the weekend and working at the lodge. When they say it isn't psychotherapy, I think they are correct. The weekend is a true initiation, in the ancient "joining the tribe" or "becoming a man" sense. Anyone interested in attending probably ought to research how those work. I had been looking for something like that since high school, so I welcomed the New Warrior experience. It was scary, difficult and challenging, but I felt safe the entire time I was there. Men are free to leave at any point. No one was going to kill anyone. I later staffed a weekend and saw how hard they work to keep the men safe. I was told to carpool so I would be with other initiates for the ride home, not because of a lack of parking. That gave us time to talk about the experience and bond. Our carpool group was in the integration group, so we kept seeing each other for the next few months. When it was over, my deep fear of other men was gone. In its place was compassion, trust and love. It changed my life for the better. Maybe New Warrior has changed since I did the weekend. I could see the potential for for that after I did the weekend. They employed many of the same techniques used to indoctrinate people into cults. They lacked a charismatic leader and some other aspects of cults, but the potential for abuse was there. Maybe they really harmed Michael Scinto. I hope not, because it would be sad if men no longer had the opportunity to do this work.Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 10:27:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM: If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm. I imagine for the same reasons that I have to sign lengthy agreements when my kids play soccer. Or when I sign up for a site on the Internet or download some free software. Have you read any of those "Terms of Service?!" I saw the form MKP requires on a website and it's frankly a lot more straightforward and shorter than many such documents. It also makes it clear what a man is responsible for, e.g., that and other MKP documents make it clear that if a man believes he is unstable or ill-prepared for an intensive men's weekend that he should not attend. At least that's my reading of it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM: It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men. Real men do not need Warrior Weekends. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you Judge Anonymous! You seem to have reached some very confident conclusions based on your thorough research of the organization. Seriously, what do you base your accusations on? What evidence exists that "income tax evasion" is a motive? How does the law define "illegal group therapy" and how did (does) MKP violate it? And on what do you base your assertion that men who attend the MKP weekend are "immature" unlike "real" men like yourself? Have you actually met and talked with men in MKP?Joey Johansen · 10/06/2007 10:58:55 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul G wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 08:49AM ... The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think this is a fair accusation to make. It's really not different from the accusations the author of the HP article makes. Neither your (Paul G's) nor the reporter's accusations are supported by convincing evidence and they are both biased. You *assume* that Mr. Scinto's parents caused a good portion of his troubles but you have no evidence upon which to base such a conclusion. May I suggest that perhaps you are "projecting" your own experience onto Mr. Scinto and his parents? Also, talk to a few people who have had a family member commit suicide before you make such assumptions. I know three friends who have lost a family member to suicide and they have each experienced tremendous guilt about what they could have done differently to (in their mind) prevent their loved one's suicide. However, as each of my three friends progressed through therapy and/or support groups, as they prayed and talked with their minister or rabbi, as they talked with friends, they came to see that the suicide was not their fault. It was a choice their loved one made and that person is the only one to "blame" if one is inclined to assign blame at all. None of my friends chose that option; they each came to the conclusion that the "blame game" was an understandable attempt to find a focus for their anger and overwhelming sadness but that ultimately it primarily served to freeze their emotional anguish. Although having some relief from the relentless waves of grinding grief felt good for awhile they eventually recognized that they were simply using blame to forestall the deep, all-consuming sadness that they felt. Once they let go of the need to blame they did indeed experience several weeks during which waves of suffocating sorrow nearly immobilized them. But, as they let the sadness flow, they gradually found themselves accepting the loss of their loved one. They forgave him (in all three instances it was a male family member) and they forgave themselves.ABC · 10/07/2007 11:26:03 AM
Very poor reporting. No context is offered for the retreat items mentioned (which the reporter should have been able to give if he does indeed have the protocols). He says Scott Cole is the executive director--he hasn't been nearly two years. He bases most of his criticism on folks from Rick Ross's webpage, without asking what their own biases might be. He never asks what things Michael Scinto might have been diagnosed with before the Warrior weekend. I went. I could offer criticisms of the event, but I don't think that could be done fairly in this context. On the Rick Ross forums, anyone who mentions anything positive about their experience is shouted down. As to the "Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer"--this is something that happens at the end, which is clearly a moment where the leaders poke fun at much of the whole weekend. That seems healthy, to me. As to one commenter's suggestion that people learn psychotherapy in a weekend--no. Initiates are invited to come back and staff, but it takes many staffings, and much additional training, before anyone is put in a position of leader. There's no talk in this article about why people might go on this; what are the needs of male initiation today, what are men looking for, how might a man seek integrity with himself, accountability with his brothers, overcoming wounds from fractured relationships with fathers. As to secret rituals--what about those initiation rites done by Masons and the Knights of Columbus. Ask the latter about their use of a human skull and bones. Ask about their commitment to secrecy.Josh Harben · 10/08/2007 9:05:18 AM
I am saddened by this man's suicide and grieve for his loved ones and family. I have been involved with MKP for 5 years and it has been a positive force in my life; helping me to me the man I want to be and live a life of integrity. The weekend is meant to "shake things up", but the portrayal in this article is a clear distortion, especially the supposedly coercive aspects. It also fails to mention the very positive impact that the community continues to have long after we have finished the weekend initiation, which only lasts for 2 days.

° ° °

DannyB II:

--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---Sorry, Danny, hadn't meant to drive you over the brink. I was merely pointing out that, despite your claims to the contrary, two mental health professionals HAD indeed been consulted and quoted in Chris Vogel's article re. the merits or demerits of Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure.

Whether or not you or I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what these two professionals said or even the veracity of their credentials ... is immaterial to your claim, and hence immaterial to my refutation of it.

Those concerns, thoughts, opinions, etc. are certainly up for discussion, however!  :D
--- End quote ---


Ursie, that would be one, as in (1) professional. Please, stop misleading folks here. I would post the actual professional person associated with this post but I think everyone has got it by now.
Thanks, for the debate but this one is wrapped up.

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