Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Benchmark Young Adult School / Benchmark Transitions
psy
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: ""psy"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Oz girl"" ---a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
--- End quote ---
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
--- Quote ---They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
--- End quote ---
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
--- End quote ---
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point, however valid. Any memorial for a survivor should work under the same principle.
THEY are the ones who are important.THIER loss is the anguish. THEY are the ones who are primarily being "helped", in the form of gaining some kind of justice, understanding, and love
psy:
--- Quote from: ""Guest"" ---
--- Quote from: ""psy"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Oz girl"" ---a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
--- End quote ---
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
--- Quote ---They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
--- End quote ---
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
--- End quote ---
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point
--- End quote ---
Imo, that IS making a political point. Valid or not (i agree with you, btw) some people choose to believe different things, or have different perceptions. The idea that so many died for nothing offends some. A memorial should not, IMO speak for the dead when they might not approve of the message. Although I am 99.9% sure George would approve of a "benchmark killed me" style memorial, I still wouldn't feel comfortable putting words in his mouth... It leaves a bad taste in mine. It's fine for me to say "benchmark killed him" but the place where he died, Imo should be devoid of any politics, no matter how much i'm sure he would have approved. I just don't feel right about it is all, and maybe it's just me.
The fact of the matter is that I'm not impartial. I don't think anybody would claim me to be. I've seen enough evidence and long since concluded as to what needs to be done. I am not the right person to put a memorial there, nor is Benchmark, or anybody on Fornits. If anybody decides what would go on such a plaque, it should be his friends, those who knew him, and even his parents. There is a time and place for politics and perspectives, but it's not on a tombstone. He will be remembered, and I will point him out as an example of what can potentially happen, but not there, at least not by my hand.
This is why I said: name, date birth, date of death, and maybe a few statements from friends and family, perhaps that's one of the few things both Benchmark and Fornits can both agree on. One brief moment of peace to honor the dead together. Believe it or not, some counselors at Benchmark do care about the kids, they just have a fucked up and potentially very dangerous way they've been taught to show it (and that is why they call it "tough love").
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: ""psy"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Guest"" ---
--- Quote from: ""psy"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Oz girl"" ---a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
--- End quote ---
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
--- Quote ---They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
--- End quote ---
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
--- End quote ---
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point
--- End quote ---
Imo, that IS making a political point. Valid or not (i agree with you, btw) some people choose to believe different things, or have different perceptions. The idea that so many died for nothing offends some. A memorial should not, IMO speak for the dead when they might not approve of the message. Although I am 99.9% sure George would approve of a "benchmark killed me" style memorial, I still wouldn't feel comfortable putting words in his mouth... It leaves a bad taste in mine. It's fine for me to say "benchmark killed him" but the place where he died, Imo should be devoid of any politics, no matter how much i'm sure he would have approved. I just don't feel right about it is all, and maybe it's just me.
The fact of the matter is that I'm not impartial. I don't think anybody would claim me to be. I've seen enough evidence and long since concluded as to what needs to be done. I am not the right person to put a memorial there, nor is Benchmark, or anybody on Fornits. If anybody decides what would go on such a plaque, it should be his friends, those who knew him, and even his parents. There is a time and place for politics and perspectives, but it's not on a tombstone. He will be remembered, and I will point him out as an example of what can potentially happen, but not there, at least not by my hand.
This is why I said: name, date birth, date of death, and maybe a few statements from friends and family, perhaps that's one of the few things both Benchmark and Fornits can both agree on. One brief moment of peace to honor the dead together. Believe it or not, some counselors at Benchmark do care about the kids, they just have a fucked up and potentially very dangerous way they've been taught to show it (and that is why they call it "tough love").
--- End quote ---
no, it's not political to say how benchmark is run, or even that he was murdered. Saying that he was murdered would be taking a stance, though. So don't say that Put accurate info out there: your testimony of how you were treated , Other young adults' testimony, along with the lack of credentials, and ties to the abusive cult cedu isn't taking a stance, it's presenting accurate info. Let people draw their own conclusions.
psy:
--- Quote from: ""Guest"" ---Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,)
--- End quote ---
I sort of disagree. If anybody murdered George it was Mel Wasserman / C.E.D. reaching out from the grave.
Something I read in Cults In Our Midst made me think... Cults are organized like an upside-down T. You have the leader on top and all the followers on the bottom. Only one ultimately has power and makes the decisions. The rest, more or less, simply wait for instructions from the higher-ups. So if they're trying to help how culpable are they really? (and I'm not saying all are, some get drunk with power, some are just naturally sadistic fucks) IMO, the leader should be shot, hung, staked, drawn, quartered, run over by a buick, encased in lead, and sent hurtling into the sun(metaphorically of course :wink: )... They deserve no mercy at all, but what if the leader is dead? What happens then?
What if the Leader's immortality is not part of the religion (and even then, it's not saying it would stop true believers... look at scientology)? What if the Leader himself is not seen as sacred, but the idea he stood for, his sacred science (the ideology, dogma, practices, language, etc). A religion is born, the worship of an idea. What stops cult members form continuing to practice what they were taught, teach it to others, and "spread the gospel". It's a bit of a monster running around with it's head chopped off.
What if the current person on top (that would be Jayne) truly believes what she is doing is the right thing, that it's the only way that is possible to save kids who are destined to die? What if she isn't the typical sociopathic cult leader, but a wayward follower spreading her gospel, trying to save the lives of others. Does she believe the way she does becuase she needs to justify what she does (a-la willful suspension of disbelief)? Hypothetically, could she ever snap out of it meaning it would entail accepting responsibility for such harm?
I once saw Joelle, Jaynes daugher, crying in Deborah's office speaking about how the program really was "not working". She had stood in between two students who were in love and couldn't really be kept apart. They AWOLed. She was devastated. I overheard, and of course, interrupted, suggesting that maybe since what she was trying "wasn't working" maybe she should change the program (and I suggested several things). This was a woman who was very upset. Somewhere in there was a heart.
Love has nothing to do with control and everything to do with letting go. A program should not be controlling, for example, the sexual lives of it's "students", judging if they are sexually enlightened, ready to date, or forbidding the choice of partner. For chrissakes, you have to write a proposal to have sex at Benchmark. Life is about learning and experiencing these things on your own. It's pretty safe to say with all the horny teenagers in Benchmark the primary cause of AWOLs (at least when I was there) does tend to be un-approved relationships (a-la elopement).
I tried to explain to Joelle that she was fighting a losing battle over the control over her "students" genitals, but she seemed to truly believe that leaving the students to their own devices would somehow result in contamination (since "two sickies(addicts to whatever)" don't make a "wellie" and since "sickies" end up dead-insane-injail 97% of the time, the multiplied probabilities almost guarantees failure.) It all comes out of AA dogma and has no basis in science, but to Joelle, it was the truth.
Who, then, do you hold responsible? What if the reason she deceives the outside world is because she feels it is necessary to accomplish a greater good (ends justify means thinking). What if i'm dealing with a rogue cult who'se leader has long since died and the followers never figured out they were getting conned. The dogma (originally designed for one purpose: making money) lives on and continues to do damage.
I'm not saying this is the way it is. It is very possible, even likely that the higher-ups at benchmark know full well that the program is designed for the sole purpose of making money, justifying it as a "working" system. Jayne preaches lifespring/est, so does Joelle... A religion that requires the virtual abolition of the conscience to the point where there is only what works and what doesn't.
It would be at this point of full realization that I would assume a cult member could be fully informed about the inner workings of a cult and still respect it as valid, a working system - becoming a member of the inner circle.
I am not looking for revenge. I just want this to stop. Ignorant or intentional, the harm inflicted needs to stop. So what happens if the program shuts down. What if the staff simply migrate as they usually do. What if cutting off one head is simply producing more and more. There are three solutions to stop growth, as I see it: jail em all, kill em all, or convince the staff that what they are doing is harmful and wrong. The first two aren't... er.. "working systems". If the latter is the only hope to stop growth of the industry, how does one possibly reach them? If Margaret Singer is right, presenting enough information should do it. What if we could somehow exit-counsel staff while still in program? What if instead of a fist, we simply offer information... What if even one was reached. What would happen, I wonder.
Anyway. sorry for the sleep-deprived rant. I really should get back to replying to several hundred emails, packing, editing many hours of DV footage, restoring SueScheffTruth by Christmas day as a present for Sue (can't forget here now)... etc...
psy:
--- Quote from: ""Guest"" ---
--- Quote from: ""psy"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Guest"" ---
--- Quote from: ""psy"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Oz girl"" ---a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
--- End quote ---
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
--- Quote ---They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
--- End quote ---
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
--- End quote ---
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point
--- End quote ---
Imo, that IS making a political point. Valid or not (i agree with you, btw) some people choose to believe different things, or have different perceptions. The idea that so many died for nothing offends some. A memorial should not, IMO speak for the dead when they might not approve of the message. Although I am 99.9% sure George would approve of a "benchmark killed me" style memorial, I still wouldn't feel comfortable putting words in his mouth... It leaves a bad taste in mine. It's fine for me to say "benchmark killed him" but the place where he died, Imo should be devoid of any politics, no matter how much i'm sure he would have approved. I just don't feel right about it is all, and maybe it's just me.
The fact of the matter is that I'm not impartial. I don't think anybody would claim me to be. I've seen enough evidence and long since concluded as to what needs to be done. I am not the right person to put a memorial there, nor is Benchmark, or anybody on Fornits. If anybody decides what would go on such a plaque, it should be his friends, those who knew him, and even his parents. There is a time and place for politics and perspectives, but it's not on a tombstone. He will be remembered, and I will point him out as an example of what can potentially happen, but not there, at least not by my hand.
This is why I said: name, date birth, date of death, and maybe a few statements from friends and family, perhaps that's one of the few things both Benchmark and Fornits can both agree on. One brief moment of peace to honor the dead together. Believe it or not, some counselors at Benchmark do care about the kids, they just have a fucked up and potentially very dangerous way they've been taught to show it (and that is why they call it "tough love").
--- End quote ---
no, it's not political to say how benchmark is run, or even that he was murdered. Saying that he was murdered would be taking a stance, though. So don't say that Put accurate info out there: your testimony of how you were treated , Other young adults' testimony, along with the lack of credentials, and ties to the abusive cult cedu isn't taking a stance, it's presenting accurate info. Let people draw their own conclusions.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure if "murder" is quite the right word. IMO, perhaps "negligent homicide" would be more precise. Jayne, if she is a sociopathic cult leader after nothing but cash in her "working system" had nothing to do with George's death. The buck does stop at Jayne for pretty much the tinyest decision, but she is rarely ever actually at Benchmark and (at least when I was there) had practically no interaction at all with the students themselves. It was her underlings, practicing their "tough love" that they truly believe in, who, in my opinion, most directly contributed to George's death. It's sort of like somebody who believes they can perform a tracheotomy without experience, unwittingly kill the person (and don't stop there... just because it didn't work that once doesn't mean it wont' in the future... choking people are going to die anyway (screw waiting for the ambulance with qualified and trained personnel))
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