willful suspension of disbelief

[TheWho]

I think that video would shut him and a lot of other apologetic people with their pockets rather full of the hands of certain programmies up for good.

Well it depends.. if psy had full control over the interviews and chose which questions to ask and also had full control over editing the film then no I don’t think it will surprise anyone.  We all are aware of psy’s position on Benchmark so the outcome of the film will not be an eye opener.
If independent people were involved and Benchmark was included in choosing the questions and editing the film then I would be on the edge of my seat and request the first copy.  But I suspect the film will have as heavy a bias as possible against Benchmark.




...

I would have no problem with independent people doing a documentary on it.  I would have no problem with Benchmark being able to have their say.....as long as Psy or others representing our POV were able to contribute equally....but that will never happen.  Places like Benchmark can't stand up to the scrutiny of actual open debate.  That's why isolation and secrecy is so important.  That's why communication with family and anything to do with the outside world is either halted altogether or severely restricted, monitored and otherwise censored.  That's why they shy away from studies and long term research (as Who is so often fond of asking..."why would they want to do that??".  He says the same thing about regulation).  They know they wouldn't stand a chance.   Can you imagine if one of them really decided to do a point-by-point debate with one of us???  Holy shit!!!

Flip on the light and watch the cockroaches scatter.

This makes my point.  If you, Anne, had full control over the questions and edit control the film would have the same spin.  You have a negative view of the place based on what you have heard here on fornits... Do you have first hand knowledge that they have turned down long term studies being conducted?  Have they turned down any organizations willing to debate them?  Can you be specific?  

You are about as closed minded as they come so I expect it...  I admit I dont know much about BenchMark, but all I am saying is I think we can all agree the film will not be a balanced view point.



...

[Anne Bonney]

Have you not had your coffee yet or do you usually have this much trouble with reading comprehension??

I said I would have no problem with an independent entity doing a documentary on Benchmark or any of the other programs.  I said I would have no problem with the programs having a say in it as long as someone representing our POV had equal time.  G'head.  Ask Benchmark or any of the others if they would ever agree to this.  Let me know how you make out.

:roll:

[TheWho]

If this is in fact true.... what is it telling us?  If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5?  How do we know?
If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years.  How do we react to this?  Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing?  Is chemo causing their deaths?

Its not too much of a stretch to figure out if you have a 'troubled kid' (although most really aren't...its just helicopter parenting) and ship him off to a bunch of pseudo-therapeutic center with un or underqualified staff who use the "positive peer culture" or "therapeutic community" approach of humiliation, forced confessions and thought reform, mucking around in a developing psyche.....you're gonna have problems.

You are spewing anger, Anne, and once again you have nothing to back your statements up.  You heckle programs for not doing studies to back up their claims and you turn around and do the same thing.  How about If I did the same thing and said:
Its not a stretch to see that if you place a child in a nurturing environment, remove the child’s negative influences and build up their self esteem they are going to do great in life and suicide rates will drop off dramatically.
This actually makes more sense and is more believable because I don’t have an agenda; I am open minded and am not angry at everyone who disagrees with me.




...

[Anne Bonney]

but all I am saying is I think we can all agree the film will not be a balanced view point.

And at least quit saying that.  I'm hard pressed to recall any occasion that we all agreed with anything, let alone a point you made.

[psy]

There is no group. There's not even amity.

What Psy meant is that on average, 1 out of 20 program kids will kill themselves every six months.

No.  I meant that there is an attempt every six months (though at least one success inside program that I know of) (there are a bunch more successes outside)

[Anne Bonney]

You are spewing anger, Anne, and once again you have nothing to back your statements up.  You heckle programs for not doing studies to back up their claims and you turn around and do the same thing.

Yes, I'm angry that these places continue to abuse kids.  I'm angry that kids are continuing to die from restraints, excessive exercise, suicide etc.  I'm angry that people haven't listened or learned from the past 40 odd years.  Yep, you betcha.

On backing things up........listen carefully as this has been repeated to you numerous times........ It is the responsibility of the person making the claim of success to provide proof of such claims.  These places have been touting bogus success rates for years without anyone calling them on it.  I'm calling them out.  Back up your claims for success.

Programs are offering therapeutic services with no evidence of efficacy or safety for that matter.  That, IMO, is borderline criminal.

[TheWho]

You are spewing anger, Anne, and once again you have nothing to back your statements up.  You heckle programs for not doing studies to back up their claims and you turn around and do the same thing.

Yes, I'm angry that these places continue to abuse kids.  I'm angry that kids are continuing to die from restraints, excessive exercise, suicide etc.  I'm angry that people haven't listened or learned from the past 40 odd years.  Yep, you betcha.

On backing things up........listen carefully as this has been repeated to you numerous times........ It is the responsibility of the person making the claim of success to provide proof of such claims.  These places have been touting bogus success rates for years without anyone calling them on it.  I'm calling them out.  Back up your claims for success.

Programs are offering therapeutic services with no evidence of efficacy or safety for that matter.  That, IMO, is borderline criminal.

So since there have been little or no studies it doesn’t mean the schools are not effective and your anger may be misdirected.  You are making assumptions when you claim the programs are not helping kids.  How do you know that the schools have not listened or learned over the past 40 years?

Until such time as studies are done we need to rely on the information at hand which are schools feedback, parents and kids feedback.




...

[Anne Bonney]

How do you know that the schools have not listened or learned over the past 40 years?

Because they still use the same tactics that Straight used on me.  When I read of the LGATs and seminars it makes me weep.  Seriously.  Makes me cry every time because I know how it feels to be trapped in that mess.

Until such time as studies are done we need to rely on the information at hand which are schools feedback, parents and kids feedback.

We need to force the issue of research.  Programs don't want light shown on them.  Again, that's why the need for the extreme isolation and separation from society.  That's why everything is censored and restricted.  That's why parents are told, before they even speak to their kid, to be on the lookout for manipulations such as claims of abuse.  They set the parent up to not believe anything negative about the program the kids say.  They won't allow un-announced visits.  They won't allow outsiders to observe.  They need the secrecy to continue to function.  My goal is to expose that insular little world that allows them to foist unproven mind and thought control techniques on developing psyches.

[Anonymous]

ok, hey who: An independently funded and limited research project was formally completed last year... you ought to know that in khk, a program that proclaims to save kids from the "scourge" of drugs, gayness, and overall family dysfunction, there was an average of 1.5 reported suicide attempts INSIDE that outpatient facility from 1998 until 2005. Now, based on speculation, it could be reasonable to suspect that given the ACTUAL treatment environment there which would best be described as 'inpatient residential' that another program doing similar treatment would have similar results. Also, this figure was based on the reported attempts. Not the unreported ones that may have happened. It also does not include the attempts ending in death.

[Anonymous]

that's 1.5 reported suicide attempts PER YEAR, sorry, carry on...  :wink:

[TheWho]

Because they still use the same tactics that Straight used on me. When I read of the LGATs and seminars it makes me weep. Seriously. Makes me cry every time because I know how it feels to be trapped in that mess.

So you are saying that there is no difference from straight in the 1970 to the programs like , say, ASR of Today?  I think you are trapped in the past.
You would be hard pressed to find many professionals to agree with you.

We need to force the issue of research. Programs don't want light shown on them. Again, that's why the need for the extreme isolation and separation from society. That's why everything is censored and restricted. That's why parents are told, before they even speak to their kid, to be on the lookout for manipulations such as claims of abuse. They set the parent up to not believe anything negative about the program the kids say. They won't allow un-announced visits. They won't allow outsiders to observe. They need the secrecy to continue to function. My goal is to expose that insular little world that allows them to foist unproven mind and thought control techniques on developing psyches.

Anne, you are so paranoid.  There is no shroud of isolation or secrecy.  Many of these places have no fences, if the child doesnt like it they can just walk away or get kicked out.  Parents can visit the campus and speak with kids at random or have lunch with all of them.  The kids can see therapists who are independent from the school and the therapists can speak with the Childs counselors at home.
This talk of mind control is a little weird, to say the least.



...

[TheWho]

ok, hey who: An independently funded and limited research project was formally completed last year... you ought to know that in khk, a program that proclaims to save kids from the "scourge" of drugs, gayness, and overall family dysfunction, there was an average of 1.5 reported suicide attempts INSIDE that outpatient facility from 1998 until 2005. Now, based on speculation, it could be reasonable to suspect that given the ACTUAL treatment environment there which would best be described as 'inpatient residential' that another program doing similar treatment would have similar results. Also, this figure was based on the reported attempts. Not the unreported ones that may have happened. It also does not include the attempts ending in death.

How can you keep a straight face and say that based on speculation?  You are widely assuming a lot..unreporting, underreporting…did the study mention this?

I read it as no suicides occurred during 1998 and 2005.  I think it would be reasonable to speculate that if the kids were not under the protection of the program the suicide attempts would not only be increased but many more would have been successful, thereby underscoring the success of the programs.


...

[Antigen]

If [5% suicide attempt] is in fact true.... what is it telling us? If these same group of kids never attended a program would the death rate increase to 1 out of 5? How do we know?

Yes, it's pretty close to true based on the best available calculation of the number of kids in Synanon/Stepcraft/LGAT type placements hashed against the number of reported suicide attempts/completions. No the rate would not go up w/o the program. This becomes obvious to anyone w/ an attention span longer than that of a cocker spaniel puppy once we factor in that there is no significant difference in terms of actual dysfunction between the unfortunate souls who receive 'help' from your coven and those who, blessedly, escape your benevolence.

If I told you another fact that 51% of people who undergo chemo therapy die within 5 years. How do we react to this? Should we ban people from having chemo therapy or is there some information missing? Is chemo causing their deaths?
...

Yes. According to a growing number of medical professionals, chemo and other heroic medical procedures are shamefully over-prescribed. While that particular practice should not be banned because, in some cases and based on hard scientific data, it passes the risk/benefit test, it certainly should not be used so often as it is.

This is not the case with your brand of snake oil. Scientists do not hold hands at the end of a seminar and say "I de believe in science! I do! I do!" They may be somewhat biased and all too often let that get the best of them. But, at the end of the day, they publish their data, their methods, their conclusions and their case studies for review by the public and their peers and then they direct themselves accordingly.

[Anne Bonney]

Anne, you are so paranoid.  There is no shroud of isolation or secrecy.  Many of these places have no fences, if the child doesnt like it they can just walk away or get kicked out.  Parents can visit the campus and speak with kids at random or have lunch with all of them.  The kids can see therapists who are independent from the school and the therapists can speak with the Childs counselors at home.
This talk of mind control is a little weird, to say the least.



...

Exit Plans keep kids in there.   Programs are the master manipulators.  They manipulate the parents into believing that the kids will DIE if they leave.  They manipulate the kids into accepting their fate by convincing the parents to turn the kid out if he leaves the program or does something to be kicked out.  When a kid is forced with a decision between losing his home and family and submitting to the thought reform being presented to them, its not difficult to see why they really have no choice.

[Antigen]

Up till now, the toughlove hate group has been monopolized the soap box, using our own college funds and inheritances along with massive amounts of 'volunteer' man hours and other resources to produce their sustained propaganda campaign. Psy's a pretty talented, competent kid with an admirable work ethic and some nifty toys. But there's only so much an editor can do to slant live footage complete w/ body language and all the other social cues lost on text communication. If you actually listen to the way these boys conduct themselves w/ leo and with the program participants you'll find they carry themselves with admirable constraint and, for lack of a better word, elan. But even if they were expansive, delusional and hysterical instead of letting the cult members dance that dance, they couldn't possibly offset the 30 year concerted, well funded and carefully camoflaged propaganda campaign described above.

The beautiful part is that, on our side, we don't have to spend much or resort to force or fraud to get `er done because people want to get the word out for their own reasons. All we need is rampant talking out in group.