The issue from a parents perspective

[TheWho]

No you are trying to paint the first hearings in a certain light NOW. The report explains quiet clearly what I stated, the focus was on deaths in the first report. So yes your "speculation" in this thread is flat out misinformation and lies.

No it is not, how can speculation be lies?  This is how Mr. Miller may have viewed his strategy for the first hearing, none of us know this, Hanzo.  He might have decide to present abuse cases first and deaths later, but decided that having parents would be more credible for the initial meeting to try to get buy-in from his panel.
He may or may nor decide to place people who went thru these institutions in front of the panel to testify.. all of us can speculate and express our opinions.

[Nihilanthic]

Nobody wants your opinion.

[Anonymous]

lols look at the who's user title.

[Che Gookin]

I'm a parent.  In my experience the biggest problem in the "help" industry which includes psychiatrists and psychologists, not just RTCs is that very few so-called "professionals" have the balls to examine and point out the problems in the entire family situation.  Almost all parents lack the courage to take a hard, honest look into how their behavior and attitudes have helped to get the entire family to where they are.  Many parents seem to be much more psychologically fragile then their "troubled" kids.  They cannot really take close examination or anything smacking of criticism.  The so-called "professionals" cater to those who control the purse strings.  No one becomes a "troubled teen" overnight; it is a from birth process.  Most parents don't realize that they cannot really control kids; they can and do influence them, in good and bad ways.  Good influence starts in childhood and begins with trust.  There seems to be two major parenting modes with thousands of variations and they are:  1) I'm the parent, the boss and you better do what I say or else.  Do as I say, not as I do.  2) I'm the parent and my desire is to guide, protect and honor your humanity.  I will live my life as an example you can trust.  
How can we hold kids "accountable" if we don't hold ourselves accountable?   I know this doesn't help once people find themselves at the mercy of the industry and are at a loss.  Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up.  And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.

What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant  is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them.  Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop.  And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes.  Such is life.

There is hope for humanity.

Parents.. follow this example.

[psy]

bump

[Anonymous]

What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?

All of that is important -- abuse, lack of options, deception -- and yes I put a lot of stock in what survivors say they have experienced. Like the old saying 'where there's smoke there's fire' -- there have been way too many kids killed, abused and psychologically harmed for any sensible person to say the complaints are due to a few disgruntled individuals.

Any intelligent parent that has done a little bit of web research should draw the conclusion that there are a lot of con artists in this industry, and that overall, this 'teen help' business is really foul. But that doesn't mean they stop looking for help if they have a child who really needs help and has not been getting it from local resources. It is these well-meaning parents -- the ones who truly want the best for their kids -- who are most easily seduced by an ed con or someone else who comes along promising a 'good program' -- something that promises real therapy, a real education, a healthy environment and some wholesome fun activities. Maybe such programs exist, maybe they don't. But there is no question that thousands of parents with 'troubled teens' are looking for exactly that, after everything else they've tried seems to have gone nowhere.

The part of the movement against institutionalized child abuse that advocates are not addressing nearly enough is the lack of local resources and options. Yes, every city of any size has it's share of psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, drug abuse counselors, etc. Most parents try several of these before they even think about something as extreme as a residential program. But these local resources are often ineffective in offering much help. Most psychiatrists are all about putting kids on powerful drugs, and many psychologists are too easily bullshitted by kids who are just going through the motions because their parents expect them to 'give therapy a try.

Some kids might need therapy, but every kid needs much more than that -- they need direction, a sense of purpose, a feeling of self-worth, they need healthy relationships with friends and family, they need fun, love, worthwhile things to do with their time, and lots of other things. They need all those same things that we adults need, but some kids seem to have a tough time finding them or even accepting them when they're simply given to them.

It's easy to blame parents for 'not being a parent,' and it's so easy for others to judge when they haven't walked in a parent's shoes. Parenting is the toughest job there is, and what works well for one kid doesn't always work for another -- even in the same family. Programs don't offer solutions, but neither do many other people. We're all out here on our own trying to figure this out step by step. We don't have all the answers and sometimes our kids throw us curve ball after curve ball, to the point where we sometimes feel completely incompetent and helpless to do anything right.

We can't make our kids stop their attempts to destroy their lives, but since we love them we can still express our concerns and try to persuade them to get help and to make better decisions. We sure could use a little bit of support, especially someone or something or someplace in our own communities.

I sometimes laugh at the way 'insanedeadorinjail' is discussed here as if it's complete bullshit. Yes, programs feed on parents' fears and use this as part of the sales process. And the anti-program criticism is valid -- most kids don't die or go insane or end up in jail. But that's little comfort to a parent of a kid who has tried to commit suicide or been to the ER for a drug overdose, or who has a history of mental health problems or who has had multiple run-ins with the law. Or worse, a parent of a kid who has experienced all of the above. Again, programs don't have any answers, but the really sad and frustrating thing is...neither does anybody else.

[Karass]

Hello Fornits, and sorry I've been away for so long. Had to take care of some things, like life, parenthood, and so on.

Nice to see someone quoting what I wrote a year and half ago. I still stand by most of it, but I'm not so convinced anymore about the importance of "local resources," or "community based treatment." I have come to believe that treatment of any sort is mostly bullshit, even when conducted by truly kind-hearted licensed professionals. I had a teen who is now well into adulthood, who had many of the usual problems that lure parents into "treatment" and sometimes into "programs." If his issues had just been the kind of teenage bullshit most of us middle-agers did -- drugs, sex, defiance of authority, minor vandalism and skirmishes with law enforcement, refusing to follow any organized religion, and so on -- then I could deal and I could relate. Been there done that. But when your kid seems truly fucked up in the head, in ways you can't relate to -- in ways that make you terrified for their very survival -- you feel like you need to do SOMETHING -- get some professional help, before he kills himself of does some permanent damage.

But that "professional help", even in the best, most caring of circumstances, usually involves powerful mind-altering drugs, and not the fun kind, but the kind that can keep you messed up long-term. The kind that have side effects. The kind that some shrinks like to experiment with in "off label" dosages. But desperate parents who have tried "professional help" sometimes decide, after it doesn't help, that maybe something really radical is called for. Thus the allure of programs. It's not even an "allure" -- it's more like the last act of desperation, like a cancer patient who gets all the best treatment but continues to get worse, to the point where they want to try any snake oil promise of a cure, no matter how bullshit it sounds.

So over time he has weaned himself off of all that chemical shit, and life is not always (or usually) nice and rosy -- some days just plain suck and are terrible for him and everyone around him. But other days are hopeful and include a few smiles and laughs.

The most important medicine and the most important "therapy" is just LOVE. That's it. It might not cure every mental illness, but it beats the shit out of anything that comes in a pill or that comes in words spoken by a stranger while you sit on the couch and tell them how you feel.

On Fornits, we try to educate people about the evils of programs and convince parents not to fall for the snake oil sales pitch. But I think the problem starts with that first encounter with "behavioral health professionals" -- the mainstream healthcare system. In most cases, that system is just as worthless as programs, even though it seems unabusive or less abusive.

The best thing we can do for our "troubled" kids is to love them, and teach them to beware of authority, and to watch out for the Man, and to be independent free-thinkers. And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.

[Che Gookin]

Good to see you back, best of luck to you and the rest of the family.

[ZenAgent]

The best thing we can do for our "troubled" kids is to love them, and teach them to beware of authority, and to watch out for the Man, and to be independent free-thinkers. And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.

Well said.

[psy]

And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.

And to beware of slapp suits, educated in the law, and aware of your rights.