Author Topic: Holding parents accountable  (Read 15446 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Holding parents accountable
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2007, 01:12:15 PM »
Actually, TSW isn't all that far off in terms of the role parents play in sponsoring the maltreatment of their children, whether willingly or unwittingly.

Bottom line is there is no excuse for abuse - and that includes parental ignorance.

How many parents actually go visit the facility they send their children to?

It's hard to know but I think we can safely say the majority of parents who send their kids to programs do so SIGHT UNSEEN which considering what kind of "schools" these places are, some may view as an incredible leap of faith (trust) instead of what it really is - RECKLESS.

The recent article about Gulf Coast Academy is a classic example of reckless parental conduct, IMO.  A mother sends her kid to a WWASPS program sight unseen and then is horrified when she actually visits the facility.

This wasn't a result of brainwashing.  This was a result of the parent failing to do due-diligence.

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps ... 70315/1002

Where Buzz is right is the effects of LGAT.  There is no question parents who attend these seminars are indoctrinated with the values and beliefs of the facilitators.  How lasting the effect is depends on several key factors, the main one being how much money the parent has to keep investing in the progressive levels of indoctrination.  In the end, the training wears off within 6 months according to most experts.  Even less for children who thankfully, are more resilient and tend to lose the magical child thinking once they get back into the real world.  It's the parents who have trouble letting go.

Anyway, I think TSW and Buzz each make good points, that's my 02. cents.
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Offline Pitbull Mom

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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2007, 01:31:25 PM »
Quote
Obviously you haven't done much research. Most of Spring Creek Lodge and other wwasp programmes are filled with kids dumped their by their parents till they are 18 to avoid having to pay high boarding school tutions or they can use their insurance benifits.


I feel your anger, and I'm as angry as you are, but you are misdirecting it. Parents are not looking to get rid of their kids.

Here's some factual information on the $$ topic to support my statement. Youth Care charges upwards of $14,000 per MONTH. How many private high schools schools charge that much? None that I know of, certainly none in my community. Most insurance plans only pay for 30- 90 days, and then the parents have to take over the cost, which is why you see so many kids in and out of programs. If I had been looking to just get rid of my kid, I certainly could have found a whole variety of cheaper alternatives. I was paying out of pocket, and I'm not rich. I didn't even have a job anymore. A job I lost because I took off too much time from work to take care of my family. If you want to get your jollies by saying that I sponsored my son's death, go ahead and entertain yourself. IT WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. If you really want to make a difference, get to the root of the problem, which is lack of community mental health resources. Use your anger to facilitate change there, where it can make a difference for a whole new generation of kids.

Private schools do not accept kids with problems like assualt and school refusal and severely defiant behavior. I would have used a day treatment in a heartbeat if one had existed. They don't. For awhile I drove my son 200 miles round trip every DAY for day treatment in a hospital. Obvioulsy not a long term solution.

I realize many survivors will never see parents as victims, and have a lot of understandable hatred towards parents who let them down, but they really aren't the monsters you make them out to be. I know I'm not going to convince you of that, but believe this --  until you find a more moderate approach, parents looking at the industry, the Congressional Committee, or people like Miller will not take you seriously, or put you on a witness stand. Think about it.

I hated my parents until I had kids because I grew up in a brainwashing environment, with punishments that should be illegal. At one point in high school, I seriously considered putting a bomb in their car. Eventually I forgave one of them, and realized I had to lose some of the anger if I wanted to be able to experience any happiness in life. The inability to forgive the other has caused me immeasurable pain in my life.

I am absolutely not condoning programs or abuse, but I'd really like to see some survivors really survive this.  Directing your anger in a positive way, and finding a constructive way to make a difference is a big step in that process. Lashing out at prospective parents, or making fun of them is not going to get their attention. Mine maybe, but I'm not looking for a program.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
sur·vi·vor     –noun 1. a person or thing that survives.  
2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others.  
3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks.
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Pitbull Mom

Offline Karass

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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2007, 01:38:40 PM »
Thankfully, WWASPS is on the defensive and even its owners don't think it will be around too much longer. Every program parent I have met online on different forums and in real life were not interested in a WWASPS-type program, or in punishment or abuse -- they were interested in getting real help, real therapy for their kids. That doesn't excuse lack of due diligence in researching treatment options, or in sending a kid off to an out of state residential facility without visiting it. The main thing is their motivations were fear and concern, not anger and revenge.

TSW, I think you might be a little out of touch with modern day program finances. The programs that are marketed to parents as 'good' programs are in the $10-$12k per month range. As Buzzkill pointed out, good luck getting any health insurance company to pay for any of that. I don't know about school IEPs, but I suspect that school district officials don't simply rubber-stamp expenses of that magnitude without a lot of questions, second opinions, etc. School districts in the U.S. aren't exactly flush with cash these days.

How does a middle class or even upper middle class family fund such an expensive undertaking? I think a common mechanism in the last few years has been home refinancing -- taking a big chunk of that ever increasing home equity out in cash to hand over to the almighty program.

So it occurs to me that the mortgage crisis, tighter credit and declining real estate values is starting to cause a major negative impact on program enrollments -- for the simple reason that most Americans don't have another option to fund it. Not too many parents have easy access to that kind of cash, no matter how convinced they are that a supposedly good program can 'save' their child.

Edit: I just read Pitbull Mom's post above. Apparently I'm the one who's out of touch. My $10-$12k/month figure is on the cheap end of things.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2007, 01:46:24 PM »
PB - I agree with much of what you say except that I do not believe TSW is exaggerating when he says parents are using programs to dump their kids in.  Not all parents but a significant, large percentage.  It really depends on the type of program.  The BM warehouses are full of kids who parents essentially gave up on them or want to get of a kid who isn't measuring up to parental expectations.  The wilderness therapy programs are full of kids whose parents buy into them primarily as a tool to "break their kids spirit" before shipping them off to a locked boarding school.   Wilderness therapy is NOT an appropriate therapeutic approach to detoxing a child off of drugs like Meth, Heroin, etc., which require a MEDICALLY controlled environment but parents aren't necessarily told this which goes beyond fraudulence IMO.  

The program you sent your soon to could not be described as a BM warehouse.  It is important to differeniate between the types of programs and approaches used to treat kids though I would have to say that parents are often "sold" what the ed con or program owner/admissions rep believes they want to hear.  There are no laws that require parents to be told the truth, or mandate full-disclosure on the part of the program or ed con (e.g. fatalies, DSS substaniated cases of abuse, lawsuits against a program or ed con, etc.)
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2007, 01:57:54 PM »
Quote
In the end, the training wears off within 6 months according to most experts. Even less for children who thankfully, are more resilient and tend to lose the magical child thinking once they get back into the real world. It's the parents who have trouble letting go.


True nuff. The thing is, it takes a few weeks or months for the conditioning to break down and wear off AFTER the person is no longer in contact with the group, and thus having the conditioning constantly reinforced by the group.

As long as they remain active in the parent support groups and with the seminars.  Many of them go on to become "facilitators" in the seminars; and many of them remain in the support groups for years.

I feel they have more trouble letting go because the program has become their religion. It is a part of their personal identity and the idea of letting it go or admitting it is false or faulty is very stressful. I feel this is why they get so hysterical when presented with evidence of the abuse. They will typically fall into shrill spouting of the Program mantras as a response to any criticism.

Many of the program grads are the same way. But its true they seem to come out of it sooner. They don't have the same "support" system the parents have - they tend to want to reconnect with society and the conditioning as a result will slowly wane.

It is a complicated issue that can't be explained fully on a forum such as this. For example, one part of it seldom spoken of is the problem of compliance and participation- Compliance and participation with the abuse.  In the upper levels the students themselves become the abusers. For them, acknowledging they were abused requires admitting they have abused others. It seems to take time and maturity for most to be able to take that step. This is enough to keep many from ever admitting the program is abuse.

For many of the parents the same mechanism is involved by virtue of the referral process. If you have referred families to the program; and insisted it was all that is wonderful and then some; it will be much harder to ever admit you were wrong. Your mistake has been multiplied over by how ever many families you've enticed into the web. This is one factor keeping many of them from seriously considering that the abuse allegations are true.

And this is worth pointing out once again - they do not believe the allegations are true. They are not able to even consider the possibility. They have been trained to think of anyone making such allegations in very disparaging terms - Chattering Pigs for example.  One more very common cultic sort of trait.
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Offline Rachael

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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2007, 02:23:34 PM »
In this I really can only speak to my own experience. I did not have a drug problem, I had family issues. My mother was fairly crazy and everyone around me knew it including teachers, friends' parents and most of the "professionals" she took me to to be "fixed". One after another, my mother brought me to psychologists, counsellors, and even a local drug treatment centre (a legitimate one). Each one told her I had no problems. On more than one occasion my mother would start off a session reciting a litany of imagined things I'd done wrong, the counsellor would turn to me and applaud me for being so patient and calm through my mother's moments of insanity, send me out of the room and proceed to spend the rest of the session intended for me on trying to help my mother with her issues.

I just recently obtained all of my medical and school records and have now been able to see precisely the scope of what my mother was trying to do. She time after time fabricated complete lies about things I had allegedly done to try to have me "committed" to various psychiatric facilities. Invariably, the professionals involved would compare her stories with what I was saying, my school records, my volunteer and work history, the awards I had received, my IQ and personality tests - and deduce that something was up, but that I was certainly functioning above average and doing pretty bloody well considering the challenges I faced from my mother. Almost all of this happened without my knowledge, I am only learning this now.

In the end, my mother had to resort to a place like AARC. No legitimate treatment facility would ever have attempted to commit me. This is the fault of AARC - they did not question what my mother said, and when it became patently obvious that I didn't have a problem, they kept me anyway. But, this doesn't in any way exonerate my mother.

I don't know what is wrong with her, but it certainly was there before she ever met with AARC. If I ever get the opportunity, I will see her charged with unlawful confinement, slander, psychological abuse, neglect and every other applicable charge. People like her need to realize that they cannot get away with hiring someone else to do their abusing for them. If she locked me in her basement for six months, strip-searched me, withheld food, restricted sleep, hurled verbal abuse at me for hours on end, prevented me from going to school, prohibited me from reading, and sometimes even disallowing me to speak - she would be in jail. It is no different if she hires someone else to do the job. And these are only the things she knew about prior to having me sent there - things like physical and sexual abuse that are not advertised as features of the program are another thing entirely, but they fall under the category of parental negligence. Add to this the fact that now, having full knowledge of everything that did happen to me there, she still refuses to support me saying that it might "put her friendships at risk". She is responsible for everything that happened to me there, as she put me in a position where I could not defend myself or go for help from any authorities.

If a person throws you into a pit full of rabid, starving pitbulls, they are responsible when you inevitably get bit.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2007, 05:02:34 PM »
As Oz Girl points out - this kind of thing happens too. . .
Have you read any of the books out there about Borderline mom's?
I've not myself, as that hasn't been a focus of mine. I'm not sure which one, if any, might be most worth reading. You might want to hit Amazon though, and look them over. Some of what you describe, makes me think this might be what you were dealing with.
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Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2007, 09:10:05 PM »
Don't ever assume that this is limited to WWASP. I threw that one out there as a mere example. I see Pittbull Mommy and her little tag along 'brain-washed' zombie Buzzkill jumped on that one like a fatchick on a donut truck.

The sadism, as illustrated by Racheal, is far more prevalent through out the industry than is suspected. I put the number at at least 50 percent.

So to Buzzkill:

The far larger crock of shit is your repeated claims to have been brainwashed. Niggah puhlease...

Gullible is a far better word.


The original post sparked the exact kind of debate I suspected it would. On one side you have parents claiming, "it isn't sadism... IT'S BRAINWASHING!"

On the other you have one regular survivor saying, UMMMM yes it is.

And at least one guest poster, who I know is a survivor, saying that sadism is far more prevalent than these parents are denying.

Key facts here are as follows:

Far to many of these parents want their children punished in programmes.

Parents pay for these programmes with their own funds or use of various benifits. That makes them one of the largest supporters and funders of this entire sick industry.

I've personally witnessed parents taking perverse pleasure in the knowledge that their kids are doing hard consquences. This didn't occur ina wwasp programme either.

So it is clear to me that what we really have here is a gaping divide on the forum. On one side you have parents trying to 'spin' away their responsibilities for their failings as parents. On the other you have the survivors.


I'm somewhere in the middle finding it all very tragic that it is the parents who are probably going to do most of the talking in this congressional hearing.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2007, 09:22:39 PM »
In so many words this thread can be summed up like this.

*ahem*

a) "I put my kid in there thinking it was safe/they'd get help/ I'd feel better/whatever and then after months of isolation and hearing bullshit and buying it I went to check it out and OH MY FUCKING GOD. I pulled my kid out but I hate being guilt tripped about it, I did it out of love, drop it already"!

b) "I honestly got brainwashed by the seminars but I still can't be guilted about it but I'll sure as hell blame my kid and say it was for love"!

c) "I wanted the kid to be punished and "tough love" and all but I didn't think it would be this bad"!

And, well, what me and TSW (at the very least...) feel should be said to those parents is, basically:

"SHUT THE FUCK UP. ADMIT YOU FUCKED UP. ADMIT YOUR FAULT IN THIS. STOP WHINING, STOP BITCHING, STOP SNIVELING. YOU FUCKED UP AND WERE FOOLED AND NEGLIGENT, AND SOME OF YOU WANTED YOUR KID TO SUFFER OR EVEN KNEW AS BAD AS IT WAS AND STILL CONDONED IT. A FEW WERE JUST WEAKLINGS AND WANTED THE KID OUT OF THEIR HAIR OR WERE TOO WEAK TO GO PULL THEIR KID OUT LIKE THE CRYING SNIVELING BITCH FROM THE WAMI VIDEO WHO LEFT HER OTHER DAUGHTER AT SAFE DESPITE NOTHING BEING WRONG WITH HER.

GROW UP, BE THE PARENT, ADMIT YOU FUCKED UP, HELP YOUR KID AND HELP STOP THIS."

More or less, anyway.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 09:24:30 PM »
yep more or less.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 09:28:15 PM »
Also, I should point out that we don't bash Joyce for a reason.

SHE ADMITTED SHE FUCKED UP.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2007, 09:36:27 PM »
hey.. maybe you ought to ask her if she minds if you mention her name?
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2007, 09:51:00 PM »
Here are to the other 99% of the kids parents you did well:

And to all the parents who made the right decisions:  you worked with you childs counselors and therapists.  Worked extensively on getting local services for your child and finding the right fit for him or her.  The tireless hours of worrying whether or not you are doing the right thing.  The days of research and commitments to finding the right placement, having you child analyzed and tested to insure they were a good fit for the TBS you final chose.  The months of participation and working with the counselors, staff and therapists, the monetary commitment, lost vacation time with the other children and family members….seeing your child slowly get back onto the right path and get interested in life again and setting his/her own goals, taking control of their own life again, the smile on her face……..all this makes it all worthwhile knowing you made the right decision for your family.  Now, you have come full circle and you are back together again as a family.

Looking back you say to yourself it would have been an easy path  to just do nothing, save your money and take a chance on your childs future that things would work out as others had suggested, but what a horrible turn your child was taking and might have been lost if you had not cared, tossed her future to fate and not taken control or an effort to help him/her.

Congratulations, sticking by your child and staying focused on their best interest no matter what eventually pays off and you have proven that.




...
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2007, 09:56:51 PM »
Quote
Congratulations, sticking by your child and staying focused on their best interest no matter what eventually pays off and you have proven that.


Too bad that doesn't involve placement in a program and isolation from their child and later having censored, monitored communication with their parents while in a program, or subjecting them to a program's ideas of "therapy" against their will without medical (or any) need, Who.

Parents who do a good job should be mature enough to not need their ass kissed. If they're that fucking immature and need kudos and pats on the back they really shouldn't be parents anyway, but its too late to fix that, now isn't it?

Your whitewashed, alternate-universe fairytale you just posted about in a idealized program's view of "the process" the parents go through while the children are incarcerated can make a first time reader think they're useful, but the lack of anything of substance besides press released and P.R. such as what you're posting speak for themselves in time if they're willing to do research.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2007, 10:07:16 PM »
LIKE ANNIHILATING PERCIFORMES IN A SMALL ENCLOSURE.

DID I MENTION YOUR GRAMMAR SUCKS?

Quote from: ""TheWho""
Here's to the other 99% of the kids parents: you fucked up bad.

And to all the parents who made the wrong decisions: you worked with your child's torturers and abusers.  Worked extensively on ignoring local services for your child and laughing while your kid was humiliated.  The tireless hours of partying, not caring whether or not you are doing the right thing. The days when you realized "Oh wait, I don't have to deal with my kid anymore!" because they were being warehoused in the TBS you finally chose. The months of ignoring your kid, although it was at a high price, it was very well worth it because now you can lard out and watch soap operas in peace, despite seeing your child slowly become demoralized and end up hating you, with much worse problems than they had going in, with no more goals or self-direction because that was thoroughly beaten out of them, and possibly taking their own life... but who gives a shit? It was all worthwhile knowing you don't have to deal with your family. Now, you have come full circle and are getting fucking owned by your enraged child who slams you into the lowest-cost nursing home the moment you start to lose what's left of your tiny little mind.

Looking back you say to yourself it was an easy path to just do nothing, spend some money to make sure your child was out of your hair, and utterly ignoring the horrors you could have found with even a cursory browsing of Fornits. Who gives a shit about your child's future and the fact that he wasn't actually getting any real school credit? Who gives a shit about the horrible torture your child was enduring and was lost because you simply did not care, tossed her future into the hands of sadists and taken direct, predatory control of her.

Congratulations, because what matters is not your child's future, sanity, or health, but your own self-justification, and you have proven that. Thank you for validating me!



I would like to insert dots to make it look like this was not made by a lesser computer program than the Programmie-Trans 9000, that majestic creation of hallowed circuitry, but since the triple-dot construction was in this earlier I have failed.
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